The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

[jeremy]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

2. if the pickup is a small voltage generator (if you read the SD/seth lover interview thats what they call it), how does the wooden spacer, and the bobbin material affect tone? neither wood nor plastic have anything to do with an electronic signal.

they dont really, or if they do it is a very small effect. its done that way because the old ones were so they are using the proper materials for that style pup

 

[Franluthier]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I'm talking about his line of pickups within the 7.5k to 8.5k range. The Seth, Alnico II Pro, Pearly Gates, heck even the '78 Model (more like 9k there) all use an alnico 2 magnet and AWG wire but they have different spacers, different wind patterns and some of those cases, different types of wire or the same type with different insulation, along with a difference in DC resistance and the number of winds. It all comes in to play, even the size of the bobbin. I may not wind my own but I've been playing long enough (over 20 years) to know what effects a pickup.

I don't have anything against you or any other it's just that there are lots of myths here in the pickup bussiness that tend to make people more ignorant about the way a pickup works.
I'm sure that all the bobbins, have tha same size no taller, no larger, no wider than any other model, the physical space where we can put the wire is the same. So, I know what you mean about about different type of winding, tigth, loose, the way you lay it over, but that can't vary too much... so what can I say? I can say that the amount of wire is the most significant factor in the pickup because it varies not only the DC, it also varies the INDUCTANCE, this means that it sets the reasonant peak of the pickup which defines the tone of the pickup.

Not only does a strat single-coil not sound like a P-90 because of the height, but the overall size of the coil, width and girth included. A Tele pickup is the same way, larger than a Strat single-coil and a larger sound.

All those differences you mean are related to the tallness of the bobbin, as the P-90 is shorter and uses more wire than a vintage strat pickup, so you have more wire laying over wire than in a strat because of the short space you have, not because you like to wind it that way, it's the bobbin that sets you the way to wind the pickup (it's hard for me to explain in a different lenguage, I hope you get it). A tele pickup is only 2 mm taller, and has the bottom plate that changes it's inductance compared to a strat, the main difference is the tele has more wire, 2 mm more to fill with wire, again DC resistance, but I guess we can agree that althouth they sound different the difference is not that big as we could say it sounds really "FENDERISH"

Somewhere it looks like we're saying the same thing, only looking at it from a different angle.

It could be, but I'm only trying to be more specific, hope it helped to understand a bit more, and to know what people is buying, then anybody can believe what they want.
I LOVE DUNCANS, they are great! But I hate when people starts believing all the stupid myths...

 

[ErikH]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I don't have anything against you or any other it's just that there are lots of myths here in the pickup bussiness that tend to make people more ignorant about the way a pickup works.
I'm sure that all the bobbins, have tha same size no taller, no larger, no wider than any other model, the physical space where we can put the wire is the same. So, I know what you mean about about different type of winding, tigth, loose, the way you lay it over, but that can't vary too much... so what can I say? I can say that the amount of wire is the most significant factor in the pickup because it varies not only the DC, it also varies the INDUCTANCE, this means that it sets the resonant peak of the pickup which defines the tone of the pickup.

Yup, I completely get that. Totally agreement from me there. The amount of wire is the most significant, but it's not the be all end all indicator. I'd probably put the pattern and tension a close second, followed by the magnet. Can't the pattern and tension also affect the inductance? I get the impression that those two things do.

All those differences you mean are related to the tallness of the bobbin, as the P-90 is shorter and uses more wire than a vintage strat pickup, so you have more wire laying over wire than in a strat because of the short space you have, not because you like to wind it that way, it's the bobbin that sets you the way to wind the pickup (it's hard for me to explain in a different lenguage, I hope you get it). A tele pickup is only 2 mm taller, and has the bottom plate that changes it's inductance compared to a strat, the main difference is the tele has more wire, 2 mm more to fill with wire, again DC resistance, but I guess we can agree that althouth they sound different the difference is not that big as we could say it sounds really "FENDERISH"

I get it. You're making perfect sense here.

It could be, but I'm only trying to be more specific, hope it helped to understand a bit more, and to know what people is buying, then anybody can believe what they want.
I LOVE DUNCANS, they are great! But I hate when people starts believing all the stupid myths...

Just reading your last two paragraphs confirms that we're looking the same picture.

One thing I have learned is that DC resistance doesn't always equal the actual output, meaning higher DC equals higher output. For example, I have a set of Gotoh PAF's from the mid '80's in a Fender Contemporary Tele that measure 7.6k out of circuit and 7.3k in circuit. They sound hotter than the '57 Classics I have in a Strat and the Classic Plus in the bridge measures a good 2k higher in DC resistance. Go figure. Great pickups too.

The Duncans I do have, I enjoy, but I'm always trying others as well as I can. In the end, it's what your ears tell you. If it sounds good, then it is good.

 

[Franluthier]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Yup, I completely get that. Totally agreement from me there. The amount of wire is the most significant, but it's not the be all end all indicator. I'd probably put the pattern and tension a close second, followed by the magnet. Can't the pattern and tension also affect the inductance? I get the impression that those two things do.

YEAH sure it does, but I guess the % is to low to say it defines the sound of the pickup.

Just reading your last two paragraphs confirms that we're looking the same picture.

GOOD TO KNOW! PICKUP TALKING IS VERY COMPLEX SOME TIMES!

The Duncans I do have, I enjoy, but I'm always trying others as well as I can. In the end, it's what your ears tell you. If it sounds good, then it is good.

That's the real truth, just listen, don't read any specifications, just listen to the pickup, if it sounds great take it no matter what.

Going back to the topic, I guess I prefer the SETHS over the 57s, but I'm not saying they don't work, they sound good too, but I guess the SETHS have more clarity which I prefer.
Burstbuckers I think sound better than 57s too, but I could only try one in the middle position of a black beauty 3 pickup that a customer asked me to replace, I guess that's not a good position to compare the pickup as we are used to use more necks and bridges pickups.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

A wind on a machine can't vary as much as it can by hand. Thus the reason the Timbuckers were/are so highly sought after. This is also the reason our very own Zhang started his Pure Handwounds series.

Partly true. With a really fancy machine, you could program it to do just about anything you want. But the start-up cost and learning curve...

All that said, no one can "hear" an ohm, or 1K ohms. I also seriously doubt someone can hear unbalanced coils.

Depends on how unbalanced. You can definitely hear a difference with a spread of 0.5k or more.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Depends on how unbalanced. You can definitely hear a difference with a spread of 0.5k or more.

All I was saying is that using a meter reading isn't the be all end all of how it's going to sound.

I'll take your work on what people can hear because I haven't ran any tests, but if you want to send me a slugbucker and it's brother for research purposes I'm game. :naughty:

BTW the Tele pup is still killin it!

Luke

 

[wanmei1]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

All that said, no one can "hear" 1K ohms.
Luke

Oh Really !?!?

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Oh Really !?!?

Can you quantify that? What can you hear? Are you telling me you can hear the difference between an 8 and a 16 ohm speaker, a 15 or 16 ohm speaker, an 8.5 and a 9.0K PG, or radically mismatched coils?

The crux of what I'm saying is that no one can "hear" a unit of electircal measurement. That's like saying you can hear a resistor.

I'll concede that all things being equal a radical mismatch across coils "should" be audible, but more often than not all things are not equal. If it was your 57 Classic would sound like Christian's Pearly Gates.

Luke

 

[wanmei1]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Can you quantify that? What can you hear?
Luke

Wind a pup down from 8k to 7k.
...then listen !

 

[LtKojak]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I have a set of Gotoh PAF's from the mid '80's in a Fender Contemporary Tele that measure 7.6k out of circuit and 7.3k in circuit. They sound hotter than the '57 Classics I have in a Strat and the Classic Plus in the bridge measures a good 2k higher in DC resistance. Go figure.

Your Gotohs most likely have ceramic magnets, which are a lot stronger than the A2 used in the '57 Classics, that's the reason why they "feel" hotter. 'cause thy are!

I don't like the sound of ceramic magnets generally, they have a harsh quality that I just don't feel comfortable with, specially when used clean, which makes 85% of the my playing anyway.

A5 magnets give the right balance between tone, power and output for my ears at least; all my guitars have A5 p'ups, both single coils and humbucking.

I had a guitar with a '57 Classic in the neck and a '57 Classic Plus in the bridge that I couldn't bond with; it sounded great with both p'ups on, but too muddy with the neck p'up used alone and too harsh and ear pearcing with the bridge p'up used alone. I had to rewire it in this way just to make it bearable: neck p'up std wiring 500K with a .001 cap treble bleed and the bridge '50s mod with a 250K pot that actually read 225K.

I've ended up selling the guitar.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I could only try one in the middle position of a black beauty 3 pickup that a customer asked me to replace, I guess that's not a good position to compare the pickup as we are used to use more necks and bridges pickups.

Indeed it isn't! Which Burstbucker was it? The 1, the 2 or the three? Or was it a Burstbucker PRO? And how was it wired? By itself or together with the bridge p'up?

BTW, where can we see the guitars you make/made, Fran? Would you care to post some pictures or point us to a site?

Inquiring minds would like to know. :14:

 

[hanumanlangur]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Wind a pup down from 8k to 7k.
...then listen !

Luke is not trying to say that two pickups with different DC resistance readings will sound the same. If I understand him correctly, he's saying that we should be talking about audible differences between pickups, not electrical properties and measurements (as if we understand all of their effects in isolation).

I agree with this, because there are certain characteristics that people are attributing to mismatched coils, when they could be due to a lack of potting, or to the wind pattern, type of wire used, or some other factor (or combination of factors).

 

[ErikH]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Your Gotohs most likely have ceramic magnets, which are a lot stronger than the A2 used in the '57 Classics, that's the reason why they "feel" hotter. 'cause thy are!

I don't like the sound of ceramic magnets generally, they have a harsh quality that I just don't feel comfortable with, specially when used clean, which makes 85% of the my playing anyway.

They very well could be. I've been trying to hunt down specs for this thing with little luck. All I find are the specs for Strats and even then there's not much info about the pickups.

These Gotoh's sound really good and split it's crazy how Strat-like they sound.

I had a guitar with a '57 Classic in the neck and a '57 Classic Plus in the bridge that I couldn't bond with; it sounded great with both p'ups on, but too muddy with the neck p'up used alone and too harsh and ear pearcing with the bridge p'up used alone. I had to rewire it in this way just to make it bearable: neck p'up std wiring 500K with a .001 cap treble bleed and the bridge '50s mod with a 250K pot that actually read 225K.

In the Strat I have them in, I don't experience any of this. In fact, I had to raise the screw poles on the bridge pickup to get just a little more bite out of the Plus. The neck is just smooth. I have 500k pots throughout with a tone control on each one.

 

[Fresh_Start]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Darnit! This pepper has fly poop in it. Which one of you all can pick fly poop out of pepper?

For the Lord's sake, please stop typing and go play your guitars! :banghead:

Chip

P.S. Sometimes the autocensor is really aggravating!

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Luke is not trying to say that two pickups with different DC resistance readings will sound the same. If I understand him correctly, he's saying that we should be talking about audible differences between pickups, not electrical properties and measurements (as if we understand all of their effects in isolation).

I agree with this, because there are certain characteristics that people are attributing to mismatched coils, when they could be due to a lack of potting, or to the wind pattern, type of wire used, or some other factor (or combination of factors).

Thank You

 

[wanmei1]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Luke is not trying to say that two pickups with different DC resistance readings will sound the same. If I understand him correctly, he's saying that we should be talking about audible differences between pickups, not electrical properties and measurements (as if we understand all of their effects in isolation).

I agree with this, because there are certain characteristics that people are attributing to mismatched coils, when they could be due to a lack of potting, or to the wind pattern, type of wire used, or some other factor (or combination of factors).

Just as well you and Luke aren't pickup makers.
If someone wanted a custom pickup made you wouldn't be able to deliver.

 

[Bludave]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

I just bought a new Gibson 359.... Great guitar & had initially considered a pickup swap before I received the guitar. But when I got it and was able to spend some time with it. I like the 57 classics. I think they do the job very nicely. I also have a set of Burstbuckers in a Guild Bluesbird. When I bought the B.B. it was all apart & going through refinishing. When it was going back together the original pickups(59's) were misplaced, so we elected to put a set of Burstbucker in her. I see no reason to change them. In this guitar the Burstbuckers sound great.

As far as vintage sounding pickups go, or at least real PAF's from the 50's & early 60's the thing that I thinjk describes them best is they have a warmth to them that is uncanny as wel as reall clarity. The pickup that I find offers that kind of warmth is the Alnico II pros. IMHO these sound the closest to the real PAFs of everything I have had an opportunity to play.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Just as well you and Luke aren't pickup makers.
If someone wanted a custom pickup made you wouldn't be able to deliver.

Oh, and you could Mr. 57 Classic?

 

[wanmei1]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

Oh, and you could Mr. 57 Classic?

:sleeping:

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: The Great debate 57 Classic Vs. Seth Lover

:sleeping:

I'll take that as a no.

Ok, so how many ohms are you hearing here?

http://files.seymourduncan.com/audio/support/stratocaster/Track04.mp3

Luke