The importance of fifth and repercussions

[Jacew]

Hey, I haven't been much around lately due to a lot of other stuff going on, but I've had time to ponder around theory.

I've made use of this before in my compositions, but I'm having had figuring out what it is, so if anyone could shed light on it?

Since fifths aren't that important part of the chord voicing to keep it recognisable, they can be dropped. However, 7th chord of the major scale is diminished, that is only differentiated by tritone instead of fifth.

If I play "diminished" without the tritone, should'nt that just translate to minor, and works within the scale?

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

It will still function as the vii chord even if you dropped the dominant.

 

[GuitarStv]

Hey, I haven't been much around lately due to a lot of other stuff going on, but I've had time to ponder around theory.

I've made use of this before in my compositions, but I'm having had figuring out what it is, so if anyone could shed light on it?

Since fifths aren't that important part of the chord voicing to keep it recognisable, they can be dropped. However, 7th chord of the major scale is diminished, that is only differentiated by tritone instead of fifth.

If I play "diminished" without the tritone, should'nt that just translate to minor, and works within the scale?

You can imply the fifth with most chords and get away with it fine. The b5 is the whole sound of a diminished chord though. Without explicitly playing it, yes, the chord you have will sound like a minor (again, because the natural 5th is usually implied when you hear the 1 and b3).

 

[nexion218]

the natural 5th is usually implied when you hear the 1 and b3).

Not only that, but the harmonic series of any note already contains the 5th as it is the third harmonic. That's why you don't miss much but not playing it, because it's sorta already there. I think the context makes the m7b5 chord retain it's function even without the b5 (I might be wrong though on the latter... ).

Also, if I am not mistaken, the seventh chord on the seventh degree of the Major is scale is just half diminished!

 

[Mincer]

Also, if I am not mistaken, the seventh chord on the seventh degree of the Major is scale is just half diminished!

Correct, a Minor 7 Flat 5 chord.

 

[Jacew]

Not only that, but the harmonic series of any note already contains the 5th as it is the third harmonic. That's why you don't miss much but not playing it, because it's sorta already there. I think the context makes the m7b5 chord retain it's function even without the b5 (I might be wrong though on the latter... ).

Also, if I am not mistaken, the seventh chord on the seventh degree of the Major is scale is just half diminished!

Thanks for replies. That's along the lines I was thinking

Since the dropping of b5 reduces the dissonance significantly I find that preferable. However, would that, since there's now the implied fifth, affect the way it works in the sense of direction I have no idea. I'm generally not very good at hearing functional harmony...

It also questions does it actually matter if you just play the fifth? Adding tritones in a major scale is pretty common in a lot of music anyway.

 

[nexion218]

We're getting close to the limitations of my theory knowledge, but this is a fun conversation so I'll try my best to add something to it!

Your second question seems easier to me: since a fifth very strongly imples the root, I'd say playing a fifth instead of root (note, not chord) is pretty much the same function. That however goes down the drain with the b5 and I don't have enough knowledge to explain it... Maybe with a guitar in hand it would be easier to decipher if it functions the same. I'd expect it to introduce a pretty strong tension which would nevertheless resololve nicely to the I.

I was pondering about the first part for a few minutes... I came to the conclusion that even if you drop the b5, the root of the m7b5 chord is still a leading tone to the I chord being just a halfstep below the I's root, thus it still retains the dominant function, methinks.

 

[ErikH]

I really need to dive back in to theory. Learned a lot of it when I was younger and took a class in high school but have forgotten a lot of the advanced stuff and this relates to that. Most of my playing life has been the EVH method, "you have 12 notes to work with", and I'd go from there by ear as well as learning from others and playing with more experienced musicians.

 

[devastone]

If the bass or keys, or _______ is holding down the root, I would drop the root before dropping the 5th. In jazzier situations where you are using more extended chords, the root is generally the least significant note, followed by the 5th.

 

[nexion218]

If the bass or keys, or _______ is holding down the root, I would drop the root before dropping the 5th. In jazzier situations where you are using more extended chords, the root is generally the least significant note, followed by the 5th.

The first part makes complete sense! But would you mind elaborating on why the root is less important than the 5th? Not bitching or arguing, I'm sincerely curious and eager to learn.

 

[Mincer]

The root is usually played by another instrument. I'd argue that the 5th, if talking about a diminished chord, is absolutely important. If you are talking straight major or minor chords, it is the least interesting note to my ears.

 

[nexion218]

If you are talking straight major or minor chords, it is the least interesting note to my ears.

That's what I thought too, that's why it surprised that devastone ranked it above the root. But your explanation about other instruments playing ithe root makes sense. I guess I'm to much of an inexperienced lone wolf to think about someone else playing too...

 

[alex1fly]

Always nice to drop chord tones when you can. We have a tendency to over complicate chord voicings. Less notes, more clarity.

 

[Mincer]

That's what I thought too, that's why it surprised that devastone ranked it above the root. But your explanation about other instruments playing ithe root makes sense. I guess I'm to much of an inexperienced lone wolf to think about someone else playing too...

I figured this out long before I started playing with others, as I started recording with a 4 track recorder 35 years ago. You get pretty good at arrangement then, and realize what works well and what isn't important. If you play alone, I recommend learning to write and record- even if it isn't whole songs...just riffs, even. Layering guitar parts is eye-opening as far as what works together and what doesn't.

 

[Demanic]

It's similar to cooking.

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[devastone]

Mincer covered it pretty well, the root is usually covered well by other instruments, especially bass, and is strongly implied by the progression or cadence. The 5th is the next least significant, for pretty much the same reasons, it is strongly implied, except, again, as mentioned, it is a diminished 5th in which case it can be needed to state the diminished-ness. But, again, if you are playing with keys or multiple other instruments, it is probably being played, in a 3 piece, it can be pretty important since the bass is probably covering the root. HTH!

 

[Demanic]

As a bass player in a three piece, I should check all this out.

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[Jacew]

Since I asked this question, I've learned a lot of more theory, and I think I can now answer to this question myself:

Isn't it actually a part of tritone substitution? There's 4 different dimished chords in Major, with rest being just inversions of others and that fifth works, as it is part of some other key with same dim chord.

So what makes the fifth work is if you move from dim chord to other chord that won't clash with your original key and is part of other key that has the said fifth? However moving I chord with fifth in dim 7 chord would clash... Except it's so close to root in physical sense it actually doesn't, but just slides to it.

 

[Demanic]

Since I asked this question, I've learned a lot of more theory, and I think I can now answer to this question myself:

Isn't it actually a part of tritone substitution? There's 4 different dimished chords in Major, with rest being just inversions of others and that fifth works, as it is part of some other key with same dim chord.

So what makes the fifth work is if you move from dim chord to other chord that won't clash with your original key and is part of other key that has the said fifth? However moving I chord with fifth in dim 7 chord would clash... Except it's so close to root in physical sense it actually doesn't, but just slides to it.

Well isn't that what you want it to do?
Clash, but slide into it.

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[PFDarkside]

Since I asked this question, I've learned a lot of more theory, and I think I can now answer to this question myself:

Isn't it actually a part of tritone substitution? There's 4 different dimished chords in Major, with rest being just inversions of others and that fifth works, as it is part of some other key with same dim chord.

So what makes the fifth work is if you move from dim chord to other chord that won't clash with your original key and is part of other key that has the said fifth? However moving I chord with fifth in dim 7 chord would clash... Except it's so close to root in physical sense it actually doesn't, but just slides to it.

Let me preface by saying, I’m learning all the time as well, so none of this is out of a text book. I think you’ve got your head wrapped around it and have your options down.

Can you give an example of how you are using it and the stylistic context? Reading through the thread a few things jump into my head.

First, the number of times I’ve seen the true 7b5 from the major 7th outside of classical and a little jazz/standards is pretty small. Many times a substitution is used. Here are some that happen frequently.
1. Borrowed bVII - this is used so often it just feels natural
2. V6 - Fifth in 1st inversion. In G major, it’s the D/F#. This happens all the time too
3. Drop the diminished 5th

We had a song that was written by our singer who knew no music theory. The melody was 1 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 5 - 4 - 5. (Of course there’s a rhythm and duration not noted there). Being a pop punk song it was all power chords following the vocal melody. I always hated the root/fifth on the 7th degree, but after playing it 100 times it just sounded right. If I tried to use the 7b5 it sounded way too technical or classical. I tried having the guitar and bass just sit on 6 while the vocal melody went to 7 but that didn’t work. Then the singer tried to just eliminate the 7 all together and that was too boring. So we had a passing chord that included the b5 from the tonic!

The concept of Tritone substitution is usually referring to dominant 7th chords. Since the 3rd and b7th are a tritone apart you sub the dom7 chord a tritone away as the 3rd and 7th remain, just their functions are swapped.

It’s all pretty interesting! I think the biggest thing is that of they are short, passing tones/chords just about anything can work. If you are sitting on it, hammering away things that are generally considered “out” are going to be harder to force through.