The importance of the upper bout

[Coma]

It just dawned on me that the ergonomics of an (electric) guitar should be largely dependent on the length of the upper bout. I made the transition from LP o Superstrat about seven years ago and while playing I could comfortably play it sitting down, standing up never sat right with me. Reaching the lower frets, esp when playing faster stuff makes my hand cramp up and causes pain and extertion over time. This is not a grip cramp, BTW.
I always accredited this to the increased scale length, but having recently switched to another guitar with both shorter scale length AND a much longer upper bout, it occured to me that the placement of the neck relative to your body might have much more to do with it, as a shorter bout would shift the neck further away.

BUT, since I dont own any guitars that overlap in body design but with different scale lengths... can any of you guys assist me in testing this?

EDIT: Oooops, of course I meant overlap in scale length but with different body design.

 

[AlexR]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

There are players whose technique allows them to play any style of guitar pretty equally.....as long as their fingers reach the frets of course.
Other people's skill depends much more on what guitar they are playing.

 

[VinceT]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

Definitely. Scale length is part of it, but there are several factors. I wrote this post about one of them a while back https://vincet.net/2014/06/25/centre-of-gravity-and-playing-the-guitar/


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[greekdude]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

IMO the single-cut design has this weight imbalance thus the neck-dive effect, especially on 24-fret designs, and the thicker neck make playing uncomfortable in the lower (nut-side) frets. I believe a super-strat with easy high fret access has everything correct. Many lead shred masters use a super-strat design (e.g. the RG series).

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

IMO the single-cut design has this weight imbalance thus the neck-dive effect, especially on 24-fret designs, and the thicker neck make playing uncomfortable in the lower (nut-side) frets. I believe a super-strat with easy high fret access has everything correct. Many lead shred masters use a super-strat design (e.g. the RG series).

You're putting all single cut guitars into one box, when some of the properties you describe (thick necks) are really only limited to Les Pauls and other guitars based on them. Ibanez makes a couple single cut guitars with 24 frets and very thin necks. Furthermore, I have never had a problem with neck dive on an LP style guitar. In fact, I'd say that overwhelmingly, those guitars tend to be really body heavy.

 

[Coma]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

You're putting all single cut guitars into one box, when some of the properties you describe (thick necks) are really only limited to Les Pauls and other guitars based on them. Ibanez makes a couple single cut guitars with 24 frets and very thin necks. Furthermore, I have never had a problem with neck dive on an LP style guitar. In fact, I'd say that overwhelmingly, those guitars tend to be really body heavy.

That is my experience as well. Never played anything as well balanced or comfortable as my Les Paul. Upper fret access is really it's only flaw.

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[Johnny the Kid]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

That is my experience as well. Never played anything as well balanced or comfortable as my Les Paul. Upper fret access is really it's only flaw.

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I think it's only because of the neck joint. When I got my Epi 7 String LP, it had the Les Paul Axxcess cutaway which really lets you get up to the higher frets.

 

[Mincer]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

On my Steinberger, there is no upper bout, but the strap attaches on this strange hook-thing that reaches up toward the 14th fret, keeping the guitar in the right place. You might have something there.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

On my Steinberger, there is no upper bout, but the strap attaches on this strange hook-thing that reaches up toward the 14th fret, keeping the guitar in the right place. You might have something there.

This is simple physics. You're removing the fulcrum from the equation. An SG is much heavier than a Steinberger but the strap button placement is such that it causes the guitar to go out of balance when you take your hands off the neck. Tony Iommi solved this by putting the strap button on the bass horn, once again removing neck dive because the guitar is better balanced.

 

[greekdude]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

You're putting all single cut guitars into one box, when some of the properties you describe (thick necks) are really only limited to Les Pauls and other guitars based on them. Ibanez makes a couple single cut guitars with 24 frets and very thin necks. Furthermore, I have never had a problem with neck dive on an LP style guitar. In fact, I'd say that overwhelmingly, those guitars tend to be really body heavy.

I am putting them into one box, because this design has certain characteristics that apply to most of the brands/models as descendants of this basic fundamental one. I have one of the Ibanez single cuts, tell me about it, its thickness is nowhere near my 7-string RG.
As far as neck dive, I was specific about the 24 frets, my 24 fret 25" single cut definitely has this problem. 22 frets LPs might not. So with the super-strat you can achieve perfect balance no matter the scale or #frets due to the freedom on the shape of the upper horn, while in single-cut, well you gotta make it look like LP

 

[Chad]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

This is a cool interview with Sheldon Dingwall about this very matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcmmpSllF8M

Take away: the design of the upper bout coupled with careful placement of the strap buttons are extremely important in determining how well a guitar or bass balances.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

I am putting them into one box, because this design has certain characteristics that apply to most of the brands/models as descendants of this basic fundamental one. I have one of the Ibanez single cuts, tell me about it, its thickness is nowhere near my 7-string RG.
As far as neck dive, I was specific about the 24 frets, my 24 fret 25" single cut definitely has this problem. 22 frets LPs might not. So with the super-strat you can achieve perfect balance no matter the scale or #frets due to the freedom on the shape of the upper horn, while in single-cut, well you gotta make it look like LP

Yes, there tend to be certain characteristics that can be applied to many of the brands/models because the LP is one of the most popular guitars of all time. But for every Les Paul copy, there's also a Les Paul styled guitar that shares none of the characteristics outside of the shape.

Also, 24 frets shouldn't affect the guitar's balance. The frets don't lengthen the neck on the nut side, they lengthen the fretboard towards the bridge. So, your guitar must be poorly balanced in the first place. You may want to weight the body a little bit more.

 

[greekdude]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

Also, 24 frets shouldn't affect the guitar's balance. The frets don't lengthen the neck on the nut side, they lengthen the fretboard towards the bridge. So, your guitar must be poorly balanced in the first place. You may want to weight the body a little bit more.

So they lengthen the fretboard towards the bridge. right. And if you want unobstructed access to last frets, you either have to make a surreal lower cut to accommodate the space for the access, or you just move the whole system to the left by the length of the 2 highest frets, leaving the body untouched. This translates to the opposite of what you suggested. And obviously this is not a problem with my specific guitar but an inherited characteristic of the basic original design.

 

[Chad]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

So they lengthen the fretboard towards the bridge. right. And if you want unobstructed access to last frets, you either have to make a surreal lower cut to accommodate the space for the access, or you just move the whole system to the left by the length of the 2 highest frets, leaving the body untouched. This translates to the opposite of what you suggested. And obviously this is not a problem with my specific guitar but an inherited characteristic of the basic original design.

Correct. The 24 fret version of some guitars simply extend the extra frets into the body. Whereas other guitars completely shift the bridge, fretboard, and everything, which puts more wood on the neck side of the guitar (i.e. the instrument becomes longer in overall length, but scale length is still the same). This makes it more susceptible to balance issues.

 

[AlexR]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

Yes, we do have to be careful with our arguments. Simply say 'a 24 fret guitar does this' without knowing how the 24 fret guitar is constructed ignores every other element of the guitar's design. In fact, the same guitar from the same maker of 22 vs 24 frets is much more likely to have the fretboard extended toward the bridge, rather than the very expensive method of re-designing the whole guitar just to keep the last fret in the same position relative to the cutaway.

 

[greekdude]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

Maybe, also perhaps chambered bodies get into the equation to create the same effect: neck dive. Anyway this is all about designing a shredder and drop tuners' guitar that looks like an LP. One way or another, the neck has to be thickish and mahogany, the access has to be there, it has to be light weight and look like an LP. Hard to achieve IMHO without some degree of neck imbalance.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

Maybe, also perhaps chambered bodies get into the equation to create the same effect: neck dive. Anyway this is all about designing a shredder and drop tuners' guitar that looks like an LP. One way or another, the neck has to be thickish and mahogany, the access has to be there, it has to be light weight and look like an LP. Hard to achieve IMHO without some degree of neck imbalance.

The neck doesn't have to be thickish and mahogany. It can be made of anything and have the desired thickness that the player wants. A player can appreciate the aesthetics of the LP without desiring the specifications of it.

 

[astrozombie]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

What upper bout? I play les pauls.

 

[Aceman]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

You guys are SOOOOO over thinking this I don't even know where to start. And I actually have an article published in a Human Factors journal….

The real issue is does the strap have enough length for the cool rock pose! That is ALL that matters.

 

[Johnny the Kid]

Re: The importance of the upper bout

You guys are SOOOOO over thinking this I don't even know where to start. And I actually have an article published in a Human Factors journal….

The real issue is does the strap have enough length for the cool rock pose! That is ALL that matters.

Well weight is an issue when you wanna rock out but can't because you're too busy supporting the weight of the guitar. And it can lead to slower fretting because you're, once again, supporting the weight of the guitar. But I think the current argument is limited to only a select few single cut guitars. For the most part, the ones I've played have been nicely balanced save a couple PRS guitars.