The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Letus

New member
I am someone who has been a very ardent reader of the posts on this forum for a very long time, yet today is when I've managed to get my account. The matter I have come across on this venerable site has challenged me, expanded my knowledge and auditory perception, and provided me with many viewpoints on tone.

With regard to my quest for tone, I started getting a sort of idealized guitar sound in my head at the tender age of ten, having freshly gotten into music and encountering 'Hotel California' for the first time. I was someone very bent on total innovation musically, and had the compositions in my head stand out from the (high-quality) rock I had newly gotten from the beginning. My music is very avant-garde, and just as hard to describe. But anyway, to get to the point, I wanted my tone to complement my music, and I thought (and still think) of it as the ultimate tone. As I got more into guitaring I learnt what a Les Paul was, and realized my tone would be the idealized Les Paul tone, like it was never heard before.

A little more than a year ago, after some research on the internet, I decided to go in for an Epi LP100 for the affordability, and because of my intuition. I also bought a Zoom G1 Processor, but abandoned it later for it's unpleasant digital overtones. I also bought a Chinese 15-watt Bass Amp for around $65, and my quest for tone officially started.

Over the next few months I wrestled with all the knobs on my rig, researching tone very in-depth on the internet, till I could point out the defining characteristics of the tone of the Dimarzio Brand in general, the EMG 85 and almost every humbucker in the Duncan lineup, as well as most other guitar-related items you could think of without having actually played them (except for the 85, even then only briefly). I kept thinking I needed some other pieces of gear to complete my rig and quest for tone with every new configuration on my rig, but also kept getting closer and closer, till one day this year, with ridiculously simple amp settings, I got VERY close to the tone I wanted, as far as I could with this rig. This really surprised me. Now to describe my tone; I cannot even get halfway with words, and have literally no recording material to upload sound samples on here, but it is, first of all, completely clean (as in no distortion. My idea for this tone was to have all the clarity of a clean tone, but all the punchiness and expanded dynamics of a distorted tone), emphasizing all the strong points of a Les Paul, while eliminating the weaknesses, extremely dark and smooth, having a loose, sweet high-end, an open, clear but aggressive midrange, and a tight, very clear, bell-like, boomy-in-a-pleasant way but subdued low end.

Now on to the problem. Thanks to those who have taken the trouble to read this far, and please bear with me till the end, where I will make a request for those of you keenly interested enough in my tonal prospects. The pickups in my Epi, the 650R and 700T (probably a relation to the Gibson series) have held up surprisingly well, but they do fall short. They're ceramic, and hot, but seem to have a lot of headroom and do cleans quite nicely, but here's the weird thing; even with the low-end focused settings I have on my amp, with the tone knob over around three, an unpleasant brightness overwhelms and thins out the tone, to the extent of rendering it unusable to me. In fact, by just changing my picking style, tweaking the amp dials a little (B:2 M:4 T:5 P4), and setting the tone knobs completely open, I can get my LP to sound exactly like a tele. I usually have my tone knobs all the way down. (I know how ironic that is) The pickups aren't very dynamic, and I was thinking of going in for a lower output pickup to de-compress the tone a little. I have considered the various extremely appealing offerings from Duncan as replacements, and I will state what I like about specific pickups and what I want in my dream pickup later, but have come up with some very interesting CS order ideas. Here they are;


  1. A lower output Screamin' Demon/ Nazgul A4 hybrid with balanced coils in the bridge, an A4 Sentient/Demon hybrid in the neck
  2. An A4 Custom/A2P Bridge Hybrid and A4P Neck
  3. And Finally, my personal favourite of them all, the one that makes the cut;
  4. A Black Winter/ A2P Hybrid Set, maybe with A4 mags


The catch is, however, I have zero dough I can blow on this, so if anyone is interested enough in my pickup suggestions to try them out, or is experienced enough to tell me about what I might expect, please let me know.
Thank you again for your time.
 
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Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Sorry for the annoying block of text there. I had to copy-paste it to Notepad after I had typed it to save it, because I had some issues logging in.
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Sorry for the annoying block of text there. I had to copy-paste it to Notepad after I had typed it to save it, because I had some issues logging in.

I thought it was a poem.
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Are you a friend of staybobo?
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Wait.. you specify a hybrid pickup with coils from 2 different models then say you want balanced coils? So you want to hybrid it.. .then unhybrid it at the same time?

Your far from the only guy around here who likes to dream of specs of what this coil with this mag dipped in this sauce would sound like. But really its an inefficient way to approach a sound. From what I read it seems like you would do well to upgrade the rest of your gear first then look to pickups otherwise this is just a mental monkey spanking exercise.
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Hi,
I think Edgecrusher has come pretty close to the heart of the matter. Take heart. Deep breath. I would suggest focusing on smaller pieces of the big puzzle. Not to be flip or disrespectful, but I have read building plans shorter than that. But kudos for REALLY jumping in with both (if not 3) feet. I am known for being longwinded, so don't feel bad. Let's try again.
Also you seem very good on homework. Luck and wisdom be with you.
Steve B. Smart people here. You'll get there.
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Wait.. you specify a hybrid pickup with coils from 2 different models then say you want balanced coils? So you want to hybrid it.. .then unhybrid it at the same time?

Your far from the only guy around here who likes to dream of specs of what this coil with this mag dipped in this sauce would sound like. But really its an inefficient way to approach a sound. From what I read it seems like you would do well to upgrade the rest of your gear first then look to pickups otherwise this is just a mental monkey spanking exercise.

Hi,
I think Edgecrusher has come pretty close to the heart of the matter. Take heart. Deep breath. I would suggest focusing on smaller pieces of the big puzzle. Not to be flip or disrespectful, but I have read building plans shorter than that. But kudos for REALLY jumping in with both (if not 3) feet. I am known for being longwinded, so don't feel bad. Let's try again.
Also you seem very good on homework. Luck and wisdom be with you.
Steve B. Smart people here. You'll get there.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read and the sincere advice, but what I meant was that I wanted the output of the coils to be matched, because with the Nazgul/Demon and BW/A2P hybrids, hypothetically, the hotter coils would drown out the lower-output coils. That was what I presumed one meant by 'balancing coils'
And it is true that experimenting with the real thing is far better than hypothesizing from a distance but there is a workable intuition one can gather even from a distance about such things, and I am very satisfied with my current rig,
apart from my pickups, and I would only think of upgrading my amp when I get one with the unique character and headroom of my current one. I'm looking at the JTM45(Or an ENGL if I ever want a few high-gain channels), but that is still a dream far out of my monetary reach.
Pickup swapping is the most economically feasible option, though it is something that will take some time to save up for as well, and will definitely be the most worthwhile investment. I was just wondering if anyone was interested in the tonal possibilities of these pickups enough to custom-order them and see what they sound like.
 
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Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Are you a friend of staybobo?

Perchance that was before my time... Thanks for reading this post though, and what do you think of the pickup situation?
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

If your really strap for cash pickups have a low return on investment... Usually your best return on investment is with your amplifier
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

If anyone is interested in suggesting pickups to me, here's what I'd like from the Duncan lineup in my pickups; the dynamics, the clarity and the attack of the A2P, and the tightness and focus of the Black Winters, as well as their ability to clean up well.
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

The catch is, however, I have zero dough I can blow on this, so if anyone is interested enough in my pickup suggestions to try them out, or is experienced enough to tell me about what I might expect, please let me know.

Welcome to the forum (if someone hasn't said it yet.)

I don't want this to sound flippant, but I think you can expect to only know what an Epi with 700T and 650R sounds like until you can save up the dough and really try this hybrid idea yourself in your own guitar. No one can predict with any degree of accuracy what a customized pickup will sound like in your specific guitar, let alone what a known stock pickup will sound like in your guitar; and it's not likely that someone else will be able to invest in your dream pickup just to hear what it sounds like in their guitar. That information still wouldn't help you all that much if their guitar isn't nearly identical to yours. Even knowing well the two stock pickups used to make the hybrid, it's still unknown for certain what the result will be sonically. Customizing anything is a research project, and the results of research are often different than what was predicted beforehand. You are going to have to try it yourself in your own instrument.
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

If your really strap for cash pickups have a low return on investment... Usually your best return on investment is with your amplifier
+1 to this.

Not to be rude but I wouldn't suggest new pickups to you, best would be to leave the guitar the way it is, the amp & speakers is where your focus should be for the time being. Save up all you can & get new amplification system. These pickups cost more new than the amp you got, you would be investing money in the wrong place. Heck some of the good speakers can't be had for $65 bucks new these days, so unless you got the amp second or third hand it's very unlikely a good foundation to audition or build the rest of the rig around. What amp is it? Bugera's costs more than $150 used, so I'd guess it's something rare?
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Welcome to the forum (if someone hasn't said it yet.)

I don't want this to sound flippant, but I think you can expect to only know what an Epi with 700T and 650R sounds like until you can save up the dough and really try this hybrid idea yourself in your own guitar. No one can predict with any degree of accuracy what a customized pickup will sound like in your specific guitar, let alone what a known stock pickup will sound like in your guitar; and it's not likely that someone else will be able to invest in your dream pickup just to hear what it sounds like in their guitar. That information still wouldn't help you all that much if their guitar isn't nearly identical to yours. Even knowing well the two stock pickups used to make the hybrid, it's still unknown for certain what the result will be sonically. Customizing anything is a research project, and the results of research are often different than what was predicted beforehand. You are going to have to try it yourself in your own instrument.

Intuition. Very usable intuition.
 
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Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

If your really strap for cash pickups have a low return on investment... Usually your best return on investment is with your amplifier

+1 to this.

Not to be rude but I wouldn't suggest new pickups to you, best would be to leave the guitar the way it is, the amp & speakers is where your focus should be for the time being. Save up all you can & get new amplification system. These pickups cost more new than the amp you got, you would be investing money in the wrong place. Heck some of the good speakers can't be had for $65 bucks new these days, so unless you got the amp second or third hand it's very unlikely a good foundation to audition or build the rest of the rig around. What amp is it? Bugera's costs more than $150 used, so I'd guess it's something rare?

The thing is, I explicitly stated that I am very content with my amplifier, and would upgrade only when I am confident I have found an amp that has all the nuances that mine does and all its plus points, as well as being usable in more playing settings, as well as other plus points, like more channels. I am not sure what the odds of that are.

Since you ask, it is a Procraft BS-15 Bass Amplifier. I have learned the hard way not to scorn entry-level gear, since you have the same basic materials and construction for guitar gear generally, and while there many very valuable and necessary upgrades in many ways, the increase in price usually has diminishing returns in terms of tone.
 
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Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

The thing is, I explicitly stated that I am very content with my amplifier, and would upgrade only when I am confident I have found an amp that has all the nuances that mine does and all its plus points, as well as being usable in more playing settings, as well as other plus points, like more channels. I am not sure what the odds of that are.

Since you ask, it is a Procraft BS-15 Bass Amplifier. I have learned the hard way not to scorn entry-level gear, since you have the same basic materials and construction for guitar gear generally, and while there many very valuable and necessary upgrades in many ways, the increase in price usually has diminishing returns in terms of tone.


Sorry but heres the problem. That bass amp isnt going to have the needed dynamic range or voicing to be able to really bring out the subtle differences in a custom set of pickups. The frequency response is going to be muted at best. The treble will be chopped (compared to a guitar amp) You have ports that will work to add low end that you wont be able to dial out. It would be an exercise in frustration. If you did dial in your pickups to work with it if you ever uprgrade to anything else they will sound vastly off. I get the feeling you havent tried many amps If you havent I would recommend taking a day trip to a music store where you can spend a few hours geeking out on amps.
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Sorry but heres the problem. That bass amp isnt going to have the needed dynamic range or voicing to be able to really bring out the subtle differences in a custom set of pickups. The frequency response is going to be muted at best. The treble will be chopped (compared to a guitar amp) You have ports that will work to add low end that you wont be able to dial out. It would be an exercise in frustration. If you did dial in your pickups to work with it if you ever uprgrade to anything else they will sound vastly off. I get the feeling you havent tried many amps If you havent I would recommend taking a day trip to a music store where you can spend a few hours geeking out on amps.

Actually I tried a far more expensive Laney combo right before settling for the only bass amp in the store, and also a Marshall MG30CFX (And was very disappointed with it) with my guitar and custom settings, as well as plenty of others with other guitars. I've found the dynamics of my amp to be just right. You seem say that a bass amp works to add more low end in whether you want it to or not in an unpleasant way and destroys clarity, but I found my amp to be very sensitive and clear, as well as having a rather harsh high end at times, and handling my P-Bass copy with ease. Maybe it's an exception? Now what might the explanation for that be?
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I'd agree that $65 no name Chinese mystery bass amp might be fine. There's a whole lot more to a pickup than it's frequency profile. I don't think it's strange that you're paying more attention to the pickups than your amp, but I think when you have a severely limited budget, it pays to become less particular, or to "drop some of your needs" as George Carlin would say. Nobody is going to try out your pickup suggestions on your behalf, and it's pointless to ask, since the answer would be of such limited value.
 
Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

You might want to update your profile with your age and location. Only because, the info and advice/suggestions we might give could be quite different if your 16 rather than 47. Also, opportunity's to be thrifty, or create some cash flow might be different if your in Wisconsin or say, Kamchatka. ;)
 
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