The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

[DreX]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Hmmm... that sounds more like an argument against providing age and location.

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

If anyone is interested in suggesting pickups to me, here's what I'd like from the Duncan lineup in my pickups; the dynamics, the clarity and the attack of the A2P, and the tightness and focus of the Black Winters, as well as their ability to clean up well.

Seeing as how you want a warm and responsive top end and midrange of a soft vintage paf but the percussive nature of an extreme metal ceramic pickup, be prepared to compromise. I suggest getting a full shred and swapping the magnet to an Unoriented alnico 5. The pickup is one of the tightest and most responsive that duncan makes while still being an alnico magnet humbucker, switching from a stock a5 to an uoa5 will lower the output a bit and soften the highs to give it more of a warm vintage flavor and response. That will make the clean tone less aggressive and less likely to drive an amp too. It also has hotter pickup wind and hex pole pieces that should preserve most of the tightness and attack of the pickup, but it by no means is a fire breather like the Black Winter, the Distortion, or even the JB even with the stock a5.

A black winter/a2p hybrid will not give you what you want. The wind and output difference between the coils is likely much to far apart and the output imbalance will compromise your tone and not function how you want it to, even with an A4. The other hybrids sound plausible but it seems you may be over thinking it. The 6 string pegasus is supposed to be very tight and focused but wound to a medium output, even slightly less than a full shred so you can try that too. Maybe it will get you closer to paf territory than the full shred will with the weaker wind and slug/screw pole pieces, but I haven't tried it because it is pretty much brand new to the 6 string world. You could get it and see if it doesn't work out amazingly for you, and if it doesn't, come back to us and we can suggest some things to tweak the pickup more in the direction you want it to like make it tighter or louder or quieter, etc... There is a lot you can do to these things to make them significantly different with just a screwdriver. If it is nowhere even close to your ideal then you can send it back to duncan within a reasonable time window and either try another pickup or just hold out for the custom shop and then you just tell them what you said here and they can do their best to work their magic.

Pickup tone can really be a double edged sword. If you want to tighten up the low end then prepare for some compression and treble to change the dynamic of your highs. You want a warmer tone with softer highs then prepare to lose some of the tightness in the bass. Wanna boost mids so the fundamental cuts through distortion then your clean tone is going to be unusually honky on clean. Scoop your mids for more chime and a warmer clean tone then prepare for a pickup that gets lost with gain. It is all in how the components of the pickup play off each other, the kind and size of the wire and how much there is of it on the pickup, the types of magnets and how they are cast and charged, the shape and material of the pole pieces as well as function, whether it is potted or not and with what, etc... Most of the things that give a pickup a tight and punchy modern bass often drastically change the dynamic and fundamental response of the pickup, such as ceramic or alnico 5 magnets and hex pole pieces and hotter winds. I mean getting a tight and focused tone with vintage flavor isn't impossible but BLACK WINTER amounts of tightness and focus while preserving a2p response and warmth would be intensely difficult because the black winter gets it's tightness and focus from it's compression and output, which would throw off the vintage dynamics.

It is also important to remember that pickups are just a link in a chain. I know you say you are satisfied with the rest of your gear including your amp, but chances are a pickup change will not get you entirely to where you need to go in this case considering all of the available options in the aftermarket pickup world and how none of them suit your demands to the point where you are theorizing untested hybrids and contemplating the custom shop. Yes the custom shop is there for the players with demands that are not met by other pickups in the market, but even they in all their experience have their limitations as to what they can do when creating a pickup. I'm not saying the tone you're asking for doesn't exist but only that new pickups might not be able to take your tone where you are saying it needs to go.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I'd agree that $65 no name Chinese mystery bass amp might be fine. There's a whole lot more to a pickup than it's frequency profile. I don't think it's strange that you're paying more attention to the pickups than your amp, but I think when you have a severely limited budget, it pays to become less particular, or to "drop some of your needs" as George Carlin would say. Nobody is going to try out your pickup suggestions on your behalf, and it's pointless to ask, since the answer would be of such limited value.

It's a Procraft BS-15. More than half of your comment is rendered superfluous by the fact that I have already addressed those issues above. I'd understand if you were not able to remember all the information above, though. It is quite a bit. Regarding compromise, tweaking your rig in small ways gets you a lot more results than you'd expect, and since I have already gotten so far with my rig, a pickup change will probably get me where I want.

You're probably right about people not wanting to try out my pickup ideas, though. It's just that the story of the 59/Custom Hybrid gave me the idea of suggesting this in the hopes of people trying it out. But then again, BachtoRock had already built a prototype and was simply recounting his experiences with it.

However, I'd hoped to provide some ideas to the members of the forum. My intuition has been going crazy over the concept of these sets, and something about how the particular elements of these pickups would interact.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

You might want to update your profile with your age and location. Only because, the info and advice/suggestions we might give could be quite different if your 16 rather than 47. Also, opportunity's to be thrifty, or create some cash flow might be different if your in Wisconsin or say, Kamchatka.

That is a pretty convincing argument for doing that. Only, the instructions that were deeply ingrained in my head when I first was exposed to the internet still had their subconscious effect... That cautious part of me is only aroused more by your curiosity.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Hmmm... that sounds more like an argument against providing age and location.

Perceptions. How can one account for someone else's?

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Seeing as how you want a warm and responsive top end and midrange of a soft vintage paf but the percussive nature of an extreme metal ceramic pickup, be prepared to compromise. I suggest getting a full shred and swapping the magnet to an Unoriented alnico 5. The pickup is one of the tightest and most responsive that duncan makes while still being an alnico magnet humbucker, switching from a stock a5 to an uoa5 will lower the output a bit and soften the highs to give it more of a warm vintage flavor and response. That will make the clean tone less aggressive and less likely to drive an amp too. It also has hotter pickup wind and hex pole pieces that should preserve most of the tightness and attack of the pickup, but it by no means is a fire breather like the Black Winter, the Distortion, or even the JB even with the stock a5.

A black winter/a2p hybrid will not give you what you want. The wind and output difference between the coils is likely much to far apart and the output imbalance will compromise your tone and not function how you want it to, even with an A4. The other hybrids sound plausible but it seems you may be over thinking it. The 6 string pegasus is supposed to be very tight and focused but wound to a medium output, even slightly less than a full shred so you can try that too. Maybe it will get you closer to paf territory than the full shred will with the weaker wind and slug/screw pole pieces, but I haven't tried it because it is pretty much brand new to the 6 string world. You could get it and see if it doesn't work out amazingly for you, and if it doesn't, come back to us and we can suggest some things to tweak the pickup more in the direction you want it to like make it tighter or louder or quieter, etc... There is a lot you can do to these things to make them significantly different with just a screwdriver. If it is nowhere even close to your ideal then you can send it back to duncan within a reasonable time window and either try another pickup or just hold out for the custom shop and then you just tell them what you said here and they can do their best to work their magic.

Pickup tone can really be a double edged sword. If you want to tighten up the low end then prepare for some compression and treble to change the dynamic of your highs. You want a warmer tone with softer highs then prepare to lose some of the tightness in the bass. Wanna boost mids so the fundamental cuts through distortion then your clean tone is going to be unusually honky on clean. Scoop your mids for more chime and a warmer clean tone then prepare for a pickup that gets lost with gain. It is all in how the components of the pickup play off each other, the kind and size of the wire and how much there is of it on the pickup, the types of magnets and how they are cast and charged, the shape and material of the pole pieces as well as function, whether it is potted or not and with what, etc... Most of the things that give a pickup a tight and punchy modern bass often drastically change the dynamic and fundamental response of the pickup, such as ceramic or alnico 5 magnets and hex pole pieces and hotter winds. I mean getting a tight and focused tone with vintage flavor isn't impossible but BLACK WINTER amounts of tightness and focus while preserving a2p response and warmth would be intensely difficult because the black winter gets it's tightness and focus from it's compression and output, which would throw off the vintage dynamics.

It is also important to remember that pickups are just a link in a chain. I know you say you are satisfied with the rest of your gear including your amp, but chances are a pickup change will not get you entirely to where you need to go in this case considering all of the available options in the aftermarket pickup world and how none of them suit your demands to the point where you are theorizing untested hybrids and contemplating the custom shop. Yes the custom shop is there for the players with demands that are not met by other pickups in the market, but even they in all their experience have their limitations as to what they can do when creating a pickup. I'm not saying the tone you're asking for doesn't exist but only that new pickups might not be able to take your tone where you are saying it needs to go.

I really mean no offence, and really appreciate you reading this far and taking the time to reply, but I think you fell widest of the mark in understanding what I was trying to convey. First of all, what I want is a very clean, but dark pickup, one that is tight, but open, not so cutting as to be thin, and not so thick as to lose clarity. I'd like something that has a midrange voicing like a wah cocked ever-so-slightly, a high end that is crisp, but understated, and a bell-like low-end. The UOA5 FS idea is great, and I'm surprised that I didn't think of it, but it is a little too cutting and thin, and not really warm enough.

The Pegasus is great sounding, but an extremely different sound from what I am aiming for. It has more upper mids than the JB, and that is lethal in an LP as well.

I know about tonal compromise, but what I am doing is using all that is available to me in my rig to get me closer to my tone, not focusing only on the pickups, squeezing all that is good, so to speak, out of the rig, and that is how I have come so far, pushing every piece of gear to its limit, while still maintaining versatility, in my case, with the tone knob. It's an art. But anyway, my point was, I'm not putting all the load on the pickups. I'm using my whole rig. I think I can get a pickup from Duncan that suits me down to the ground. That was hard for me to comprehend at first, too.

And I have taken my tone as far as it can go with this rig, and have found only my pickups lacking, as such, I am very close to my tone, too.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I'm surprised no one appreciated the Ola Englund joke. It's Ola Englund, after all.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Actually I tried a far more expensive Laney combo right before settling for the only bass amp in the store, and also a Marshall MG30CFX (And was very disappointed with it) with my guitar and custom settings, as well as plenty of others with other guitars. I've found the dynamics of my amp to be just right. You seem say that a bass amp works to add more low end in whether you want it to or not in an unpleasant way and destroys clarity, but I found my amp to be very sensitive and clear, as well as having a rather harsh high end at times, and handling my P-Bass copy with ease. Maybe it's an exception? Now what might the explanation for that be?

I'm fairly sure your either trolling or just tire kicking. A guitar tone is a recipe from the start to finish. Paying 160 bucks for a pickup to play through a no name bass amp is not only a recipe for disappointment its just silly. You've tried 3 amps and are now an expert on them? This is why i'm fairly sure your trolling. Ill let Drex waste his time defending you... nice to see trolls keep each others backs.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I really mean no offence, and really appreciate you reading this far and taking the time to reply, but I think you fell widest of the mark in understanding what I was trying to convey. First of all, what I want is a very clean, but dark pickup, one that is tight, but open, not so cutting as to be thin, and not so thick as to lose clarity. I'd like something that has a midrange voicing like a wah cocked ever-so-slightly, a high end that is crisp, but understated, and a bell-like low-end. The UOA5 FS idea is great, and I'm surprised that I didn't think of it, but it is a little too cutting and thin, and not really warm enough.

The Pegasus is great sounding, but an extremely different sound from what I am aiming for. It has more upper mids than the JB, and that is lethal in an LP as well.

I know about tonal compromise, but what I am doing is using all that is available to me in my rig to get me closer to my tone, not focusing only on the pickups, squeezing all that is good, so to speak, out of the rig, and that is how I have come so far, pushing every piece of gear to its limit, while still maintaining versatility, in my case, with the tone knob. It's an art. But anyway, my point was, I'm not putting all the load on the pickups. I'm using my whole rig. I think I can get a pickup from Duncan that suits me down to the ground. That was hard for me to comprehend at first, too.

And I have taken my tone as far as it can go with this rig, and have found only my pickups lacking, as such, I am very close to my tone, too.

Try a Alternative 8. Very clear and clean pup. Only other advice I can give would be go to the custom shop. Also look at the PATB-2.

Also just keep in mind that most guitar pickups were meant to be played through guitar amplifiers but their's no rule that says you have to.

 

[DreX]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I'm fairly sure your either trolling or just tire kicking. A guitar tone is a recipe from the start to finish. Paying 160 bucks for a pickup to play through a no name bass amp is not only a recipe for disappointment its just silly. You've tried 3 amps and are now an expert on them? This is why i'm fairly sure your trolling. Ill let Drex waste his time defending you... nice to see trolls keep each others backs.

I'd bet that less than one in ten people accused of being trolls are actually "trolling".

Most "trolls" are just posters who are at odds with the majority, for whatever reason, and are not willing to bow out of a thread merely because they have a minority position. Then eventually someone on the majority side accuses them of being a troll, usually whoever is prone to losing their cool, because the minority poster refuses to just "give in", or to respect the majority status of the majority, and to no ones surprise, the majority agrees when the minority is accused of being a "troll", at which point logic and reason have been replaced with name calling and character attacks, all thanks to the accuser, and not the "troll".

 

[DreX]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

However, I'd hoped to provide some ideas to the members of the forum. My intuition has been going crazy over the concept of these sets, and something about how the particular elements of these pickups would interact.

When I first started playing I was more interested in pickups than amps also... actually that's still the case many years later, so I can appreciate that. You're going to have to try all this out for yourself as soon as you have the means. When it comes to nuanced differences with pickups, words only get you so far, and words are all you'll ever get from a forum.

Also, if someone asks, in so many words "why should I waste my time?" and you respond "intuition" as though that has currency, but usually that word is used in the context of an unknowable, like predicting how someone will act. In this context it's synonymous with "uneducated guess" or "poorly formed opinion" and not much of a justification for why someone would volunteer their time or effort.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I'd bet that less than one in ten people accused of being trolls are actually "trolling".

Most "trolls" are just posters who are at odds with the majority, for whatever reason, and are not willing to bow out of a thread merely because they have a minority position. Then eventually someone on the majority side accuses them of being a troll, usually whoever is prone to losing their cool, because the minority poster refuses to just "give in", or to respect the majority status of the majority, and to no ones surprise, the majority agrees when the minority is accused of being a "troll", at which point logic and reason have been replaced with name calling and character attacks, all thanks to the accuser, and not the "troll".

Actually I usually take the minority opinion around here... If you are in the majority or minority has no bearing on me accusing you of being a troll. It comes from your unrelenting desire to somali pirate threads into oblivion. You like to take things out of context and twist them then you conveniently ignore when someone asks something of you. Thats what makes you a troll.

But Iam convinced that the OP is not serious in his quest for tone. No one serious plays 3 amps and decides that he has the best he can get.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I'm fairly sure your either trolling or just tire kicking. A guitar tone is a recipe from the start to finish. Paying 160 bucks for a pickup to play through a no name bass amp is not only a recipe for disappointment its just silly. You've tried 3 amps and are now an expert on them? This is why i'm fairly sure your trolling. Ill let Drex waste his time defending you... nice to see trolls keep each others backs.

Now you begin to be very unreasonably offensive. Might I inquire what I did to incur your disdain? You also completely disregarded
what my statements implied. I've played on several amps, and only a few minutes are required for one to explore their tonal spectrums, as well as their dynamics and response. What makes the difference is how sensitive you are to those nuances and how clearly you can form your impressions about them. I said I've tried three specifically with my guitar, and countless other amps with other guitars
And please take note of what I say. It helps me avoid repeating myself. My bass amp does have very obvious limitations, but for what I want it to do it holds up very well. Do not disdain that which you have no knowledge of because it is less expensive. I hated Squier, too, but then I read this; http://http://www.guitarworld.com/gas-man-egoless-guitar

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I'd bet that less than one in ten people accused of being trolls are actually "trolling".

Most "trolls" are just posters who are at odds with the majority, for whatever reason, and are not willing to bow out of a thread merely because they have a minority position. Then eventually someone on the majority side accuses them of being a troll, usually whoever is prone to losing their cool, because the minority poster refuses to just "give in", or to respect the majority status of the majority, and to no ones surprise, the majority agrees when the minority is accused of being a "troll", at which point logic and reason have been replaced with name calling and character attacks, all thanks to the accuser, and not the "troll".

The hallmark of a legitimate troll is seeking to cause offence, and doing it in particularly devious ways to great effect.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Actually I usually take the minority opinion around here... If you are in the majority or minority has no bearing on me accusing you of being a troll. It comes from your unrelenting desire to somali pirate threads into oblivion. You like to take things out of context and twist them then you conveniently ignore when someone asks something of you. Thats what makes you a troll.

But Iam convinced that the OP is not serious in his quest for tone. No one serious plays 3 amps and decides that he has the best he can get.

I have to disagree with all parts of your post. If you meant you usually have an inclination towards the minority, then I have to state that you should only have an inclination towards the truth, otherwise you are just acting sentimentally. General morality aside, you have been consistently taking what I say out of context throughout this thread, as well as ignoring my responses to your inconsistencies. Refer to my previous post for a response to your last sentence.

 

[DreX]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Actually I usually take the minority opinion around here... If you are in the majority or minority has no bearing on me accusing you of being a troll. It comes from your unrelenting desire to somali pirate threads into oblivion.

If you're not specific, then you're just name calling and making unsubstantiated accusations. You might even be right, but if you can't reference specifics, then you're effectively wrong.

You like to take things out of context and twist them then you conveniently ignore when someone asks something of you. Thats what makes you a troll.

Regardless of whether what you're saying it true or not, that's not technically what a troll is. I think you just choose that word for it's value in marginalizing others, and not because it's applicable or true.

But Iam convinced that the OP is not serious in his quest for tone. No one serious plays 3 amps and decides that he has the best he can get.

I believe OP. Especially on a pickup forum, we have passion about our guitars and see the pickup as a part of the guitar and the amp more of as a means to an end. Changing pickups is like changing out the guitar's vocal chords, where as changing amps is like switching out microphones or whatever else down the line.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

To get this thread back on the topic it has so violently veered off, the closest I have heard someone come to my tone, in fact have basically the same tone, only with the high end all the way down, slightly darker, and with a slightly more open and bassier (think UOA5 instead of A2) pickup voicing and EQ, is:

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

In fact, something a like a cross between the 'Hotel California' tone and this, only bassier, and softer in attack, lower in gain, with a slight wah-flavour;

Skip to 3.10.
With regard to the escalating discord, refer to my previous posts.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

To get this thread back on the topic it has so violently veered off, the closest I have heard someone come to my tone, in fact have basically the same tone, only with the high end all the way down, slightly darker, and with a slightly more open and bassier (think UOA5 instead of A2) pickup voicing and EQ, is:

Did the video or article say what pups he has in that LP or what type of amp or DAW he was running through? Also sounds like a bit of chorus in the mix maybe?

Also recorded tone is different from bedroom or live tone not saying you don't know that but some people don't and some do.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

In fact, a like a cross between the 'Hotel California' tone and this;

Skip to 3.10.
With regard to the escalating discord, refer to my previous posts.

Are you talking about the Solo tone or the rhythm tone? And again I will state that is a studio recorded tone with studio effects compression being a big factor. Not to say you can't get that but understand that the gear your using will require a vastly different approach since your not using standard guitar gear.