The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I have one word for my experienced forum bros: staybobo

Are those fighting words?

My eloquence and expressiveness is an art, crafting a proper statement like I do is rather like crafting a prog-metal epic;

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

If you can at least nail the Hotel California tone, then at least you're in very close proximity to where you want to be, and more to the point, you're not going find what you're looking for in pickup changes alone. Pickup swapping probably won't even get you half of the way there. It's often said that you can play any style of music with any guitar, and conversely, any style of music with any pickup. Pickups matter, but their influence on the overall tone obviously has limitations.

For me, pickups aren't really about tone as much as they are about feel and playing comfort. It's easier to play certain genres with certain pickups, not necessarily because they sound right, but because you don't have to pluck as hard, pick as lightly, or be as particular in your technique to get a certain sound. For examples, Teles and their stock pickups are known for their Twang, but you can make almost any guitar twang if you attack the strings closer to the bridge, it's just that a Tele bridge will give you that sound without having to work as hard for it. It's why they say Hendrix sounded like Hendrix with any guitar he picked up, because he could adjust his style to the guitar, and the end result was always more or less the same.

I'm not looking for the Hotel California tone, I was just using it as an example of certain common denominators my tone has.

And the reason I don't settle for the Distortion set, even though it's very useable in my scenario, is because I want it to be a perfect match to my techniques and be exactly like I want it to be.

And Steve Vai tried pretty hard to replicate the Les Paul tone, but didn't really manage to. There is a certain very unique and individual, irreplicable essence to a piece of gear like the Les Paul or the JB, that must never be underestimated;

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I am actually seeking to achieve a radically different tone from what you have ever heard, something almost as fresh as the wah-wah.

Maybe so, but given your examples, you may be seeking, but you are not going to acheive it. You are really looking for something that is conventional but contradictory. Kind of like wanting heat that is cold.

The common insistence of most of most of the people on this forum is that I replace my amp, or else pickups will not make much of a difference. But, I have stated this before, I am satisfied with what my amp can do for my tone, aside from certain obvious limitations, and I believe it is unique in it's voicing. I will not upgrade until I can find a good all-rounder amp that replicates the plus-points of my amp and I can rely on in any playing situation. And I know the pickup upgrade will make a difference, because I know the capabilities and limitations of my stock pickups and have a clear idea of how they can be solved. I'm aiming at a hundred per cent useability for me.

Well, you may "know" that, but the simple fact is, that what you are stating you want would require some major changes. If you have such exact knowledge about what everything will do, why are you asking, since you are not listening.

I'm out. The condescension is really annoying.

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Ohhhhhh. Ok so basically a black winter's even eq curve but a significant output drop. Now it's starting to make sense to me. The winter's resonance peak is very similar to he standard a2p (6.68 and 6.7 respectively) so that might actually work really well. It would be a custom shop ordeal though.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

What's that, a non extinct dodo?

If you do a search on that username and read all the posts by that account, you'll see what I mean. This thread is not worth the discussion. It's some young guy who doesn't even have the money for pickups and has no intention of actually making these hybrid concoctions, he's just taking tone words found all over the forum and jumbling them to make up phrases in forum posts. He's never owned or personally used the pickups he's discussing.

One of my favorite staybobo threads was where he wanted to take a Marshall Major, run it on 2 KT88s into a Fender cab with a 1-12 speaker, then asked the forum, "What do you guys think?" as if anyone had done it or would consider doing it. At least staybobo knew the equipment well enough to concoct perfectly impossible inane scenarios.

 

[DreX]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

some young guy who doesn't even have the money for pickups

Not to derail this pearl of a thread, but this is exactly why people shouldn't mention their age. Let words be words and not worry so much about who's saying them.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

There's nothing wrong with being young. There is something wrong with pretending you are something you are not, and worse embroiling 10-20 people in an unrealistic argument that is made up and rhetorical which cannot possibly be resolved. That's all the more reason to be truthful about who you are and where you are at. Then we can really help each other wherever we are at in our musical path.

 

[Condemned soul]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

He was truthful, " The catch is, however, I have zero dough I can blow on this, so if anyone is
interested enough in my pickup suggestions to try them out, or is experienced enough
to tell me about what I might expect, please let me know. Thank you again for your time."

He expects someone else to do the work and report back. So we have two pages of this thread and nothing has been resolved.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

He was truthful, " The catch is, however, I have zero dough I can blow on this, so if anyone is
interested enough in my pickup suggestions to try them out, or is experienced enough
to tell me about what I might expect, please let me know. Thank you again for your time."

He expects someone else to do the work and report back. So we have two pages of this thread and nothing has been resolved.

Even for those of us who have played the pickups he's curious about the info would be pointless because most if not all of us use gear meant for lead guitar and not through a bass rig.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Instead of truthful, I should have said 'real' The guy wasn't being realistic about where he's at. He was just making stuff up. If people on the forum are real about where they are at, then we can really help them get somewhere. If someone doesn't have bread to blow on pickups and experiment, my best advice would have been to actually try to make their own pickup. The pieces are actually cheap and he'd learn exactly how they work and what affects their sound.

 

[DreX]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Even for those of us who have played the pickups he's curious about the info would be pointless because most if not all of us use gear meant for lead guitar and not through a bass rig.

The Fender Bassman is or was a popular guitar amp, and the first Marshalls were based on the Bassman, so the the idea of using a bass amp with a guitar, especially a smaller one, isn't categorically bad.

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

The Fender Bassman is or was a popular guitar amp, and the first Marshalls were based on the Bassman, so the the idea of using a bass amp with a guitar, especially a smaller one, isn't categorically bad.

Ye Olde tube bass amps aren't necessarily the solid state modern equivalent either though.

 

[DreX]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I plugged an Epi Les Paul into an Ampeg combo recently, it wasn't terrible, just kind of scooped and honky sounding. If OP wants a unique sound, he will find a somewhat unique, not awful sound therein.

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Ye Olde tube bass amps aren't necessarily the solid state modern equivalent either though.

Very true, especially when you introduce wanting natural distortion and soft clipping.

I own a bassman 50 and honestly, it is a very poor bass amp in my estimation. For grins and giggles I tried it with some old fender basses of mine. (musicmaster and bullet bass) Some of the reasons it is a good guitar amp make it a not so good bass amp.

I started out playing electric on my older brother's bassman 60 ss combo amp years ago with an Ibanez RG. (It was 1994 IIRC) I ran a mystic blues overdrive with it and at the time I thought it sounded okayish. (Even my totally untrained n00b could hear something wasn't quite right.) I have experience with that. It is not going to get you a tone that is going to do what the OP wants unless this is some unique no name ss bass amp with magical, mystical properties which would render it a bass amp quite unlike any other. Simply put, the desirable frequency response is going to be very different particularly in the high end. Especially once you start adding overdrive things can get real wonky, real fast.

 

[DreX]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

It is not going to get you a tone that is going to do what the OP wants unless this is some unique no name ss bass amp with magical, mystical properties which would render it a bass amp quite unlike any other. Simply put, the desirable frequency response is going to be very different particularly in the high end. Especially once you start adding overdrive things can get real wonky, real fast.

In the world of guitar, there are no frequencies which we can all agree are desirable. For example, series wired humbuckers and vintage output single coils emphasis completely different frequency ranges, and each style is very popular. Some people hate "noiseless" single coils because they lack a little high end, but some people love them, so there's just no agreement to be had on any of it. The tone knob exists for the sole purpose of pissing away frequencies, if anything, are taste is defined by what we don't want to hear more than what we do.

It's actually amps and speakers that have too great of a frequency range that sound the worst with overdrive / distortion because while mid range clipping sounds crunchy, high frequency clipping sounds like an ear piercing fuzz sound. Since OP has the kind of amp you buy out of the back of an unmarked van, I'm absolutely certain none of us knows what it's EQ profile is anyhow, and if he says he likes it, that's effectively a discussion stopper.

 

[Hank-]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

If you do a search on that username and read all the posts by that account, you'll see what I mean. This thread is not worth the discussion. It's some young guy who doesn't even have the money for pickups and has no intention of actually making these hybrid concoctions, he's just taking tone words found all over the forum and jumbling them to make up phrases in forum posts. He's never owned or personally used the pickups he's discussing.

One of my favorite staybobo threads was where he wanted to take a Marshall Major, run it on 2 KT88s into a Fender cab with a 1-12 speaker, then asked the forum, "What do you guys think?" as if anyone had done it or would consider doing it. At least staybobo knew the equipment well enough to concoct perfectly impossible inane scenarios.

Aww, I was hoping it were a dodo :argh::eek13:

 

[Gibson 1964]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Not really true. There are fundamental frequencies that are intrinsically required. For example, if you roll off the highs with a low pass filter at a frequency that is within the normal range of the instrument, you are going to hit a problem. A lot of cheap bass amps do.

Basically, all guitar amps that are functional will have a mid range focus, because the guitar is a mid range instrument. Now, basses and guitars have some overlapping frequency content. Some bass amps will round off frequencies that are well within a guitars functional range. (I am meaning it would essentially bleed off a playable note on a guitar or cause a severe drop off in volume.) Also, some bass amps do allow a very harsh top end as well to provide definition to a bass guitar which does not produce as much high end definition. Usually, if it works for one it won't work real well for the other. Because as you mention wide frequency response tends to sound harsh, most instrument amps are tuned to the frequencies produced by that instrument.


So in general, while there is an endless small degree of changes in the frequencies of a guitar amp, in general it can produce at least the range of a somewhat downtuned guitar to your highest frets and some harmonics. On several bass amps I have monkeyed with with an electric guitar, the guitar's range will not necessarily be the range the amp is properly reproducing. In fact on a couple, the higher notes on the high e were filtered out altogether by the lowpass. Others allowed certain high frequencies in in a way that would sound shrill to any of us. There was a certain unpleasant scooping going on. There are sounds that are just unpleasant to human hearing across the board. I submit the sonic grenade app as an example.

I am quite aware of what various frequency clipping sounds like. And while that is one point. In general, a solid state amp not designed to clip, like a lot of bass amps, will hard clip if you can make them. That is an ugly, non-musical sound. I unfortunately have heard what that sounds like.

However, the tones the OP is describing are fairly conventional, even if he says they are very unique.

My guess, having played several ss little no name bass amps with a guitar is that generally they are at least somewhat similar, and the whole design is just not going to get a sound like any of the posted sounds. Its a simple case of right tool for the job. Even if you love trying to screw in philips head screws with a sledgheammer, it just won't work well. Obviously the OP is unhappy with his tone in some regard, ergo this thread. I am just suggesting essentially that a screwdriver works better for screws, than a sledgehammer.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Maybe so, but given your examples, you may be seeking, but you are not going to acheive it. You are really looking for something that is conventional but contradictory. Kind of like wanting heat that is cold.


Well, you may "know" that, but the simple fact is, that what you are stating you want would require some major changes. If you have such exact knowledge about what everything will do, why are you asking, since you are not listening.

I'm out. The condescension is really annoying.

I have stated this before, but I just used those examples so as to convey certain aspects of my tone, not as standalone examples of it. And I am looking for a tone that is radical, but conventional in the means used to achieve it.

I know exactly what I want from a pickup tonally, and that would not necessarily require great changes from conventional designs. I have stated what I am looking for above. I am definitely listening, but what I was doing was attempting to clarify misconceptions regarding what I wanted.

I apologize sincerely for any offence I might have caused, and would like to state that what I said was not intended to come across in that way at all.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, though, and for investing thought in it. I appreciate it.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Ohhhhhh. Ok so basically a black winter's even eq curve but a significant output drop. Now it's starting to make sense to me. The winter's resonance peak is very similar to he standard a2p (6.68 and 6.7 respectively) so that might actually work really well. It would be a custom shop ordeal though.

More or less. I've described what I'd expect form my ideal pickup above.

An ordeal? I'm sure MJ is a veteran of enough battles to look this dragon in the eye with impunity.

 

[DreX]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I think it's amusing that you refer people back to what you've already written, but didn't bother to fix the messed up formatting of your original post, as if Moses had brought the stone tablets down from the mountain and hadn't bothered to fix the spelling mistakes.