The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

If you do a search on that username and read all the posts by that account, you'll see what I mean. This thread is not worth the discussion. It's some young guy who doesn't even have the money for pickups and has no intention of actually making these hybrid concoctions, he's just taking tone words found all over the forum and jumbling them to make up phrases in forum posts. He's never owned or personally used the pickups he's discussing.

One of my favorite staybobo threads was where he wanted to take a Marshall Major, run it on 2 KT88s into a Fender cab with a 1-12 speaker, then asked the forum, "What do you guys think?" as if anyone had done it or would consider doing it. At least staybobo knew the equipment well enough to concoct perfectly impossible inane scenarios.

There's nothing wrong with being young. There is something wrong with pretending you are something you are not, and worse embroiling 10-20 people in an unrealistic argument that is made up and rhetorical which cannot possibly be resolved. That's all the more reason to be truthful about who you are and where you are at. Then we can really help each other wherever we are at in our musical path.

I think that is being rather unfair. I must state, first of all, that this thread is fueled by a genuine passion for tone. I have no intention of wasting anyone's time on here. I have carefully thought out those pickups and my tone over a very long time, and wanted information on whether there would be any unforeseen factors influencing the end result of these hybrids. Trust me, there is a workable intuition one can obtain even long-distance, if one is dedicated enough. I might even save up to obtain enough to actually order those pickups eventually, but I have taken to the forum for ideas and to see whether this project is feasible beforehand.

You accuse me of pretending to know about pickups when I actually don't, and that this thread is unrealistic and cannot be resolved. My only response to that would be to ask you to look deeper into my statements, weigh them, and consider my side fairly. You are currently resting your convictions on half-baked, badly-supported suppositions about me. But I thank you for reading this thread at least.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

He was truthful, " The catch is, however, I have zero dough I can blow on this, so if anyone is
interested enough in my pickup suggestions to try them out, or is experienced enough
to tell me about what I might expect, please let me know. Thank you again for your time."

He expects someone else to do the work and report back. So we have two pages of this thread and nothing has been resolved.

I can actually save up for the pickups, but that statement was in the hope that the pickup recipes came across as tonally lucrative enough for an interested member to experiment with them. Apart from that, this thread has been about my tone, my rig, and making the specs of this pickup concrete.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Even for those of us who have played the pickups he's curious about the info would be pointless because most if not all of us use gear meant for lead guitar and not through a bass rig.

Not really. The tonal distortion would realistically be slight in some cases.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I plugged an Epi Les Paul into an Ampeg combo recently, it wasn't terrible, just kind of scooped and honky sounding. If OP wants a unique sound, he will find a somewhat unique, not awful sound therein.

No thank you.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Instead of truthful, I should have said 'real' The guy wasn't being realistic about where he's at. He was just making stuff up. If people on the forum are real about where they are at, then we can really help them get somewhere. If someone doesn't have bread to blow on pickups and experiment, my best advice would have been to actually try to make their own pickup. The pieces are actually cheap and he'd learn exactly how they work and what affects their sound.

The best advice you've given so far. But it would be beyond my reach and time consuming.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

In the world of guitar, there are no frequencies which we can all agree are desirable. For example, series wired humbuckers and vintage output single coils emphasis completely different frequency ranges, and each style is very popular. Some people hate "noiseless" single coils because they lack a little high end, but some people love them, so there's just no agreement to be had on any of it. The tone knob exists for the sole purpose of pissing away frequencies, if anything, are taste is defined by what we don't want to hear more than what we do.

It's actually amps and speakers that have too great of a frequency range that sound the worst with overdrive / distortion because while mid range clipping sounds crunchy, high frequency clipping sounds like an ear piercing fuzz sound. Since OP has the kind of amp you buy out of the back of an unmarked van, I'm absolutely certain none of us knows what it's EQ profile is anyhow, and if he says he likes it, that's effectively a discussion stopper.

Till it's generally hailed as great tone, it's different. But you can make it work, and have other people appreciate it even if they dislike it initially. I'm not saying that's the case with my tone, though.

if he says he likes it, that's effectively a discussion stopper.

Really?

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Not really true. There are fundamental frequencies that are intrinsically required. For example, if you roll off the highs with a low pass filter at a frequency that is within the normal range of the instrument, you are going to hit a problem. A lot of cheap bass amps do.

Basically, all guitar amps that are functional will have a mid range focus, because the guitar is a mid range instrument. Now, basses and guitars have some overlapping frequency content. Some bass amps will round off frequencies that are well within a guitars functional range. (I am meaning it would essentially bleed off a playable note on a guitar or cause a severe drop off in volume.) Also, some bass amps do allow a very harsh top end as well to provide definition to a bass guitar which does not produce as much high end definition. Usually, if it works for one it won't work real well for the other. Because as you mention wide frequency response tends to sound harsh, most instrument amps are tuned to the frequencies produced by that instrument.


So in general, while there is an endless small degree of changes in the frequencies of a guitar amp, in general it can produce at least the range of a somewhat downtuned guitar to your highest frets and some harmonics. On several bass amps I have monkeyed with with an electric guitar, the guitar's range will not necessarily be the range the amp is properly reproducing. In fact on a couple, the higher notes on the high e were filtered out altogether by the lowpass. Others allowed certain high frequencies in in a way that would sound shrill to any of us. There was a certain unpleasant scooping going on. There are sounds that are just unpleasant to human hearing across the board. I submit the sonic grenade app as an example.

I am quite aware of what various frequency clipping sounds like. And while that is one point. In general, a solid state amp not designed to clip, like a lot of bass amps, will hard clip if you can make them. That is an ugly, non-musical sound. I unfortunately have heard what that sounds like.

However, the tones the OP is describing are fairly conventional, even if he says they are very unique.

My guess, having played several ss little no name bass amps with a guitar is that generally they are at least somewhat similar, and the whole design is just not going to get a sound like any of the posted sounds. Its a simple case of right tool for the job. Even if you love trying to screw in philips head screws with a sledgheammer, it just won't work well. Obviously the OP is unhappy with his tone in some regard, ergo this thread. I am just suggesting essentially that a screwdriver works better for screws, than a sledgehammer.

I have to admit, your post was a delight to read, at least till the last few sentences. First of all, I've only played one bass amp. Secondly, I don't make the amp clip so much as elicit a slight, warm low-end moan from it (a little like a wah). And to repeat myself for the third time, the tones I posted had certain denominators in common with my tone, and the common denominators were what I was trying to convey. And the more posts I read here, the more convinced I am that I was fortunate to have this unique amp. It was a steal. Coming up eventually; tone samples, recorded on a smartphone, but nonetheless, tone samples.

I only have a problem with my current pickups, and am not upset with my tone overall.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I think it's amusing that you refer people back to what you've already written, but didn't bother to fix the messed up formatting of your original post, as if Moses had brought the stone tablets down from the mountain and hadn't bothered to fix the spelling mistakes.

I know how annoying it is, but I suppose it's a coding error, and I have few ideas about how to fix it. I'll try now nonetheless.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

I know how annoying it is, but I suppose it's a coding error, and I have few ideas about how to fix it. I'll try now nonetheless.

Done!

 

[SamGB]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

If you cant get 'your tone' then how can it be 'your tone'?
'Your tone' is what comes out when you play. Not some mythical sound that you think you could make if all of these guitar pickup manufacturers could only hear the sound in your head.

Also, get a decent amp. Having a crap amp is fine - I started off with crap amps. Pretending its an intergral part of 'your tone' is ridiculous. Truly, listen to the other posters. A good guitar(and by extension a guitar with good pickups) through a crap amp will sound average. An average guitar through a good amp can and will sound good. Until you accept the basic amp truth then you are screwed. Good luck though.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

If you cant get 'your tone' then how can it be 'your tone'?
'Your tone' is what comes out when you play. Not some mythical sound that you think you could make if all of these guitar pickup manufacturers could only hear the sound in your head.

Also, get a decent amp. Having a crap amp is fine - I started off with crap amps. Pretending its an intergral part of 'your tone' is ridiculous. Truly, listen to the other posters. A good guitar(and by extension a guitar with good pickups) through a crap amp will sound average. An average guitar through a good amp can and will sound good. Until you accept the basic amp truth then you are screwed. Good luck though.

One's own tone is ideally the embodiment of one's personality in soundwaves coming out of one's gear. It is what I'm shooting for. A vital part of tone is through the fingers, but far from all of it, if it were, then gear would be redundant.

I've said it five times now; my amp is fine. You haven't heard it, so you are not qualified to make judgements on the matter. It's my tone, and if I say it works for me and it doesn't, I am only lying to and betraying myself. Trust me, my amp works. Jimmy Page used a small Supro on LZ1, and it sounded great, budget amps are not necessarily bad, and some bass amps sound great with guitars. I testify for the what I hope will be the last time; my amp is satisfactory, it has a personality of it's own which I suits my playing and tone well, and which I have not heard in any other amp till now, and I won't need to change it for a while.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Then I think this is done here.

 

[Letus]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Then I think this is done here.

Far from it. I have stated what I want from my pickup, and I was hoping to crystallize the specs, and sought the Forum members' advice regarding that mainly.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Far from it. I have stated what I want from my pickup, and I was hoping to crystallize the specs, and sought the Forum members' advice regarding that mainly.

bassackwards champ, It works much better to tell the custom shop what you want in terms of sound then let them decide the specs. If it gets you the sound you want do you really care what the magnet is or the dc resistance? But no one here is going to be able to tell you what those specs would be. Especially given your contradictory wishes in tone through a sub optimum rig.

 

[DreX]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

OP, thanks for cleaning up your first post. I'll admit I didn't actually bother to read it in it's previous state.

. I usually have my tone knobs all the way down. (I know how ironic that is) The pickups aren't very dynamic, and I was thinking of going in for a lower output pickup to de-compress the tone a little.

One thing you must try, on account of it being dirt cheap to do, is use lower value capacitors in your tone control. Try a range from .01 to .001 uF, they will roll off the highs, but leave behind more mids than a higher value capacitor. You talk about wah sound, caps in that range become very wah-like with the tone control down.

 

[SamGB]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

One's own tone is ideally the embodiment of one's personality in soundwaves coming out of one's gear. It is what I'm shooting for. A vital part of tone is through the fingers, but far from all of it, if it were, then gear would be redundant.

I've said it five times now; my amp is fine. You haven't heard it, so you are not qualified to make judgements on the matter. It's my tone, and if I say it works for me and it doesn't, I am only lying to and betraying myself. Trust me, my amp works. Jimmy Page used a small Supro on LZ1, and it sounded great, budget amps are not necessarily bad, and some bass amps sound great with guitars. I testify for the what I hope will be the last time; my amp is satisfactory, it has a personality of it's own which I suits my playing and tone well, and which I have not heard in any other amp till now, and I won't need to change it for a while.

So you are on a 'long winded(damn straight)brutal quest for tone' but you won't change your amp? Do you know how contradictory that is? you do know that you could replace your bass amp with either a small low wattage tube amp or a really good digital modelling amp for pretty much the same money as two SD pickups right? You'll pay more again for custom made ones.
You aren't happy with your tone but you won't change your amp. Priceless.

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

More or less. I've described what I'd expect form my ideal pickup above.

An ordeal? I'm sure MJ is a veteran of enough battles to look this dragon in the eye with impunity.

Not necessarily the custom shop's ordeal so much as it is your ordeal for the custom shop. You yourself called it your "Long Winded Brutal Quest".

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Also I think the air needs to be cleaned up about what tone is. Tone is not your general sound but it is a part of it, your general sound is composed of your tone and your technique. Like if a musician is a painter, the tone would be their colors (in fact the word is used in both art forms in similar regards). You can have weak and narrow tone and still make a great song like an artist can have one dull color and still make a great painting. If you want better tone then you need different gear, because as good as your technique is, if you only have the color red you are not going to be able to paint blue, just like if you have a danelectro and plug it in to a little clip on battery powered amplifier and you aren't going to get Hetfield's tone from Ride the Lightning. Your tone is in your gear but your hands coax it all out and arrange it into your music and sound, so your hands will not make your guitar do something it can't do. Jeff beck can still make a masterpiece with a squire through a line 6 amp stuck on clean because even though his tone wouldn't be ideal, his technique is amazing. Same goes in reverse you can have amazing tone but just enough technique to get by and still make really great music, it's happened before. This is why you can copy someone's exact gear and still not necessarily sound like them unless you have their technique down; you only have half of the equation. Technique is more important in my experience but if you don't have working gear to play on it's almost as meaningless as a guitar without a player, they both need each other so it's important to find out where your sound needs improvement. Like John Suhr said, practice cures most tone issues and this is true, because the tone could be already there in your instrument and you just need to be better at coaxing it out. This seems like more of a gear and tone issue than a technique one. In a technical sense, the tone exists in the quality of your instrument even before you play it just like the color exists for a painter when it is still in tubes. I believe the OP is simply looking for new color.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Soooo seeing as none of us have given the OP a answer that has solved his issue of tone I have to ask you Letus what now? Are you going to order or save up for a set of pups? Are you going to save up for a new amp?

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: The In-Depth Documentation of My Long-Winded, Brutal Quest For Tone

Soooo seeing as none of us have given the OP a answer that has solved his issue of tone I have to ask you Letus what now? Are you going to order or save up for a set of pups? Are you going to save up for a new amp?

We have given answers. There is.
Try the custom shop.
Experiment with altering and modding existing pickups to make one that works for you. (we have made suggestions)
Try changing something else in your signal chain such as the amp or pedals.
Make your own pickup from the ground up.
Settle for a stock existing pickup.

The problem is none of these answers are that satisfying as they are all difficult answers because they are either expensive, random, or will take time, some all 3.

The custom shop seems the most sure fire and reasonable way to get it done with one pickup at 150 each if it doesn't get too complicated, which it shouldn't.
The closest existing pickup which he could make would be probably an Alnico 4 pro. If it isn't tight enough then one side could be switched for short hex poles to slightly the bottom end up.
He seems adamant on the rest of his gear so that could be left alone.
Making your own pickup takes time and equipment he likely doesn't have so it would be easier to get some one to make it for you, like the custom shop.
He also seems to have tried every floor model duncan or other pickup in his guitar and doesn't like them, that or he doesn't have enough resources to experiment and wants to get it right first try.

Then the other problem is what if he does get the pickup from the custom shop exactly how he ordered and described it in terms of the tone he is looking to get out of it and then finds it unsatisfactory? Which is something that a lot of veteran members of the forum here are claiming because they are skeptical about the rest of his gear, more specifically his amp. There are plenty of solutions brought up, just no easy ones.