The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

[beaubrummels]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Yeah sure, guy. When I examined the A5 from my Ant, it was smooth. Post a video of you unwrapping the factory tape to reveal an A5 with bumps then make arrogant comments. Fwiw, other pups which Duncan or other people claim have rough mags but that I got smooth mags in are the Whole Lotta and Antiquity Humbucker.

Did you buy them used?

Also note, I’ve bought/seen roughcast mags that were not entirely rough.

I confirmed the information I posted with certain folks in the company who put these models together.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

No, they were all new. I also inspected the mags pretty thoroughly to see if I could call them rough but they were absolutely smooth. My Ant JB and WLH had smooth mags. While my Ant Humbucker's mag was smooth but beat up with a few chips and rounded edges. I thought that was cool and could possibly affect the sound in addition to the degaussing.

 

[beaubrummels]

The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Does everyone remember what Coca-Cola tastes like? There’s only one, right?

 

[Aceman]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Here are my thoughts:

• The JB "formula" probably hasn't changed since it became a formal production model, which is what I believe Evan is alluding to, but we know that the individual components used in the JB recipe have certainly changed over time, sort of like swapping the brand of chocolate chips in your favorite cookie recipe. You're still using chocolate chips, and putting in the same amount as you did before, so it's still very much "your cookie recipe", but the taste can change slightly, especially as more components are swapped out over time (flour, sugar, brand of butter, etc)

• 
  
  ** Looks to me most of the changes were the bag, not the chocolate...
  
  

  [*]There is far more variation in the very early pickups made in the '70s than we see beginning in the '80s. You simply don't see the degree of mis-matched coils and lower DCR readings in JB's once you hit the '80s

  
  And we will check that...
  
  

  [*]In my opinion, the "JBJ is best" argument doesn't speak so much to the winder as it does to the particular generation of pickups in which the "JBJ" was common. A "JB-M", "JBL", "JBP", etc all use the same parts and were wound on the same machines. HOWEVER, you can find "JBJ" pickups produced from the early '80s through the early '90s, so that's quite a range.

  
  And they were all wound on the same machines to the same specs.
  
  [*]Roughcast mags were only found in the earliest JB's. Once the '80s got rolling, roughcast went out the window. 99% of all pickups we know as "JBJ" models have polished mags, not roughcast. I have verified this to as early as 1981/82 in some cases. By 1983, with the introduction of the large logo baseplate, roughcast was a true rarity.
  

Not enough of a magnet guru to speak to rough vs smooth overall differences in a pup that hot. We will see...

 

[beaubrummels]

The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

You’re forgetting wire batches and min/nom/max. That’s in the recipe, not the bag. Of course, this experiment won’t get at those details because it can’t.

 

[Aceman]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Hey - if you want to give the resources, the measurement tools, and let me build a real design with fancy maths and all....That's like one of the things I actually know how to do.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Maybe we just need 1 modern production JB and swap the mag, if the hypothesis is that is the only factor that could make a difference.

If the recipe is wound to a count, but the DCR are different, that would indicate the wire thickness is different. So the test pickups from different eras would need to have the same DCR, no?

 

[Masta' C]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Mag swapping a newer pickup doesn't definitively prove whether or not a newer pickup sounds different than a "JBJ" or a '70s "The JB Model", etc. Or am I missing the point of the proposed analysis?

I feel like people are making this more difficult than it needs to be. One guitar using the same adjustments (pickup height, knobs, etc), one amp using the same settings and mic placement (very important), same progressions and riffs played driven and clean, high quality recording provided for comparison. If the different JB versions are effectively different, you'll be able to tell. If not, they'll sound largely identical. If you need more than that to feel satisfied, then you're out of luck

 

[Clint 55]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

They sound different even only comparing dirty. The differences are the same which I notice in mine. The 35th sounds more open and old school PAFy, the production one sounds clogged up and compressed, and the Ant also sounds somewhat more open but duller. Demo begins at 1:14.

 

[beaubrummels]

The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Mag swapping a newer pickup doesn't definitively prove whether or not a newer pickup sounds different than a "JBJ" or a '70s "The JB Model", etc. Or am I missing the point of the proposed analysis?

Ace’s hypothesis is there’s no difference between old and new, and only mags might make a difference. If that’s true, putting a rough A5 in a new JB should make it sound like an old one.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Well, I also have a roughcast A5 that Ace can use to modify his own, newer production JB with. Then, he'll have the "real deal" to directly compare his simple mag-swapped JB with

Naturally, I would ask that the vintage pickups be left alone and not modified in any way

 

[Sirion]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

They sound different even only comparing dirty. The differences are the same which I notice in mine. The 35th sounds more open and old school PAFy, the production one sounds clogged up and compressed, and the Ant also sounds somewhat more open but duller. Demo begins at 1:14.

I love that they used the Give it All riff in this. I agree with your assesment, and of these I liked the 35th best. Of course, that is the only one not readily available...

 

[JB6464]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

No. The winds are different. My JB/Seth is hotter than my JBJ. Also the Ant doesn't have a roughcast A5 it has a smooth A5.

My Ant JB has a roughcast A5 .

 

[Aceman]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

They sound different even only comparing dirty. The differences are the same which I notice in mine. The 35th sounds more open and old school PAFy, the production one sounds clogged up and compressed, and the Ant also sounds somewhat more open but duller. Demo begins at 1:14.

The problem with that is that you know which is which. Just knowing makes it much easier to tell. And, you may be biased to choose one or the other based on what you have heard about them.

Without knowing that you might as easily go "That one sounded brittle and harsh, the other was smooth and fat"

 

[Aceman]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Ace’s hypothesis is there’s no difference between old and new, and only mags might make a difference. If that’s true, putting a rough A5 in a new JB should make it sound like an old one.

That's not exactly my hypothesis. But...yeah. In which case, I still win: Old JB, or JBJ, or whatever is just a mag swap away.

Not a damn thing magical about teh winder, or teh vintagez.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

I was going for a ‘testable hypothesis.” But if the hypothesis is ‘people conclude something is better and hear characteristics that aren’t really there based on their bias of knowing what the product is”, I think that would require an in person test. The guys that concluded they prefer the older production were not passively listening to a sample to reach that conclusion. They installed them into a guitar they were familiar with and could observe the relative subtle deltas through their interactive playing of it. And some of those deltas were practical ones (not just purely psychoacoustic), like: I can physically get pinch harmonics out of this one but I’m not able to get pinch harmonics out of that one, and when volume is on 6, this one is clean while that one is still gritty. But I think this is an interesting exercise either way.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Better brush up on your RATT riffs, Aceman...we need you to channel your inner DeMartini, ha ha!

I would like to mention that, in addition to clean samples, I really appreciate comparisons that include both a mildly overdriven tone and a fully distorted sample, rather than one or the other. Just my 2 cents.

 

[allstarrme]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Anyone who’s tried them knows, the absolute best JB is the fishman fluence classic voice 2. The paf voice 1 is just a bonus. If anyone knows tone it’s Frank.

 

[Masta' C]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

Anyone who’s tried them knows, the absolute best JB is the fishman fluence classic voice 2.

Shhh...quiet down you!

Seriously, though, the JB setting on the "Classic" is ridiculously good and has converted a lot of players. The voicing was modeled after Frank's own "The JB Model"!

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

So it isn’t just magnets that make the difference. Wonder what that little switch actually does?