The JB "I call BS on everyone" thread

[Artie]

If you take a 500K audio taper pot and turn it down until it measures 250K, how far does it need to be turned down? I think it's to around 7.

Hey Lew. That's not quite right. A volume control, turned down, is not the same as a lower "load." Note the subtle difference here. 500k pot turned down to 250k, vs 250k pot full up. There's no volume reduction with the 250k load. But it will impact the tonal character of the pup. The pickup still "sees" 500k with the "500k turned down" fig.

 

[Aceman]

Can I respond to you?

Anytime...anyway you chose.

 

[Butch Snyder]

I'm going to chime in here. Not that I have any really useful information, or revelation. I have used three different JBs in three different guitars, at three different time. First on was on an LP copy in 1982. Second was in a Kramer Striker in 1987, and the third was in an ESP LTD George Lynch signature model just a few years ago. The first made the LP copy sound good. Was used with 500k pots. The second didn't do quite what I wanted and I changed it out to a Custom. This guitar used one 250k volume pot. In the ESP, I was using 250k pots. It was an HSS setup. The JB was leaps and bounds better than the stock pickup.

All that said, I always thought that the JB (and Jazz) were designed to be used with 250k pots because the guitar Seymour put them in was either an Esquire or Telecaster and just used the stock controls; so the voicings, per his design were used with the stock 250k pots, so, maybe not by purposeful design, but more because that's what was in the guitar at the time?

 

[Lewguitar]

Hey Lew. That's not quite right. A volume control, turned down, is not the same as a lower "load." Note the subtle difference here. 500k pot turned down to 250k, vs 250k pot full up. There's no volume reduction with the 250k load. But it will impact the tonal character of the pup. The pickup still "sees" 500k with the "500k turned down" fig.

Hmmm...

I'm not a theoretical guy. I just know what I hear. You sure could be right!

What I definitely hear when I compare a JB with 500K pots to a JB with 250K pots is: a much smoother and less biting tone with 250K pots and seemingly a little less output. Maybe that's just because there's less treble?

 

[Artie]

What I definitely hear when I compare a JB with 500K pots to a JB with 250K pots is: a much smoother and less biting tone with 250K pots and seemingly a little less output. Maybe that's just because there's less treble?

Yes. Exactly. And perhaps, a bit "smoother." Imagine your pick-'em truck empty or with a full load. With a load, it will be smoother and slower. But you still have the same horsepower. (Maybe, a bad analogy.)

 

[Artie]

All that said, I always thought that the JB (and Jazz) were designed to be used with 250k pots because the guitar Seymour put them in was either an Esquire or Telecaster and just used the stock controls; so the voicings, per his design were used with the stock 250k pots, so, maybe not by purposeful design, but more because that's what was in the guitar at the time?

That's a good point.

 

[Aceman]

Semantics/irrelevant. There are two motivations, you're either trying to highlight ways in which things are the same/similar, or ways in which they are different. If your ideal premise is that while we know they are different, that we shouldn't assume mainstream groupthink is accurate, or that what is thought of as better than, is actually not, while it may be noble, is basically the definition of a gotcha test.

I won't agree that the tests are are only for two reasons. But I see your pushing the extremes point. No doubt either can be used to sway and manipulate. So, intent does matter, but so does the methodology. And a lot of other things. And the "Emphasis" or "Gothcha" is not inherently a bad idea either.

You yourself pointed out the obvious "gotcha" benefit: Reduce cost and maintain quality. I'll just make up this copper wire example. Supplier A is providing Copper wire that is 99.997% pure to make our pickups. They are forced to raise prices, thus our pickups need to have a price increase. We search for a different supplier. we find one with a great price but it is 99.975% pure. If we can use that and get exactly the same result, we can not only keep our costs the same to the customer, but add some extra money to employee college fund. So yes - I want to do a "Gotcha" test where the intent is to see if there are any reliably (<= Remember that word) different opinions in the product using 99.975% pure wire.

If I have three different people each make three runs with three different instrument (Fancy industry term - Multi-vari chart) and there is no consistent pattern of people, part, or in this case guitar, differences we are going to call it a "GOTCHA"

But it isn't anything diabolical, or biased, or any sort of ill intent. It was a straight up test of people, product, and tool bias.

But you can throw a whole test like that into the garbage if simply label one pickup as Duncan and another as GFS- even if they are the exact same pickup. Why? People's cognitive bias will have them imagine things that are not there.

So yes - this is a "Gotcha" test. But your example of Yngwie show him doing that to himself. The listening environment you described had him in a practical setting trying to if the differences he heard mattered to him. I will say I'm surprised. I have seen him play and that Play Loud sticker...he means that!

But again - I'm doing this for Yngwie. I'm doing this as per the (what I believe) are the majority of people yapping about this stuff. And I stick with what I said:

I want you to CALL YOUR shot:
I want you to NAME you favorite
I want you to listen to multiple blind recordings and name what they were
I want you to SIGN YOUR NAME
And then we'll see who has skill and ears and who is full of crap....

I'm not even - nor do I believe I ever said there were not actual differences, even in the sound. And if the magnets went from smooth to roughcast etc....well hell. That's almost a different pickup. But as with all things, just because it is old doesn't mean it is good, or better. Or that you can even tell it is different. We'll see.

More on "reliably" different later...

 

[Aceman]

Hey Lew. That's not quite right. A volume control, turned down, is not the same as a lower "load." Note the subtle difference here. 500k pot turned down to 250k, vs 250k pot full up. There's no volume reduction with the 250k load. But it will impact the tonal character of the pup. The pickup still "sees" 500k with the "500k turned down" fig.

And as mentioned here - we are all super-beings able to detect a change in the wind by the amount the hair on a gnats @$$ moves...

But yes - I can tell the difference and when saying that I usually/often/sometimes say "To get an idea" because it isn't the exact same thing. And of course taper...blah blah. Thank you Artie.

Just like the differences between my Suhr Riot and my Mooer Solo. And - when the band cranks up....it doesn't matter.

 

[Lewguitar]

If the person playing can hear or feel a difference between two different pickups when he's playing, and he's more comfortable with one than the other or if one pickup inspires him more than the other, that's what matters.

It's not important whether I can hear or feel a difference between two different pickups when I listen to someone else play them.

What matters is what I hear or feel when I play them. That's the point Frank is making.

We're talking about ART. Not TOASTER OVENS.

 

[beaubrummels]

I'm doing this as per the (what I believe) are the majority of people yapping about this stuff. And I stick with what I said:

I want you to CALL YOUR shot:
I want you to NAME you favorite
I want you to listen to multiple blind recordings and name what they were
I want you to SIGN YOUR NAME
And then we'll see who has skill and ears and who is full of crap....

I'm not even - nor do I believe I ever said there were not actual differences, even in the sound. And if the magnets went from smooth to roughcast etc....well hell. That's almost a different pickup. But as with all things, just because it is old doesn't mean it is good, or better. Or that you can even tell it is different. We'll see.

More on "reliably" different later...

So really this is a test of people, not a test of pickups.

 

[Lewguitar]

So really this is a test of people, not a test of pickups.

That does seem to be what Ace wants to test. Whether "person A" can tell if his favorite pickup is being played when "person B" is playing it. What's the point of that? :dunno:

That's what Frank describes as the "Gotcha" test.

An artist can tell what paintbrush he's using while creating a painting.

Whether a person looking at the final painting can tell what paint brush the artist used or not doesn't matter at all.

 

[beaubrummels]

That does seem to be what Ace wants to test. Whether "person A" can tell if his favorite pickup is being played when "person B" is playing it. What's the point of that? :dunno:

That's what Frank describes as the "Gotcha" test.

An artist can tell what paintbrush he's using while creating a painting.

Whether a person looking at the final painting can tell what paint brush the artist used or not doesn't matter at all.

This isn't testing what you think matters (what you hear and feel when you play). It's testing whether people who say they hear a difference can tell those same differences and name which pickup is which in a blind test. Whether it turns into a gotcha test depends on the actual setup used in the test.

 

[Artie]

There's no volume reduction with the 250k load.

I need to clarify this. There will definitely be a slight output millivolt reduction. But it's a "character" change. Not a volume reduction per se.

 

[Lewguitar]

This isn't testing what you think matters (what you hear and feel when you play). It's testing whether people who say they hear a difference can tell those same differences and name which pickup is which in a blind test. Whether it turns into a gotcha test depends on the actual setup used in the test.

I give up.

 

[Securb]

This isn't testing what you think matters (what you hear and feel when you play). It's testing whether people who say they hear a difference can tell those same differences and name which pickup is which in a blind test. Whether it turns into a gotcha test depends on the actual setup used in the test.

Agreed, I think a lot of people are confusing testing with opinion.

 

[Masta' C]

That does seem to be what Ace wants to test. Whether "person A" can tell if his favorite pickup is being played when "person B" is playing it. What's the point of that? :dunno:

That's what Frank describes as the "Gotcha" test.

An artist can tell what paintbrush he's using while creating a painting.

Whether a person looking at the final painting can tell what paint brush the artist used or not doesn't matter at all.

Yet, assumptions persist that are grounded on myth more than proof. Ace is attempting to address these, as well.

This is the problem with the forum these days...no sense of adventure and too many of us with too much time to sit and pull things apart.

By this logic, what was the value in ZenMindBeginner comparing 3 different versions of the JB? None of us were there, we couldn't "feel" the different versions under our fingers and hear them in the room. So, was the comparison completely pointless? Can we not consider his input as having value?

By the way, it has been established that Seymour "prefers" the JB with 250K pots, but I don't think it has ever been confirmed that the JB was "designed for" 250K pots...food for thought

 

[Artie]

I give up.

Don't do that. It's a complex discussion, and all info is helpful.

 

[Masta' C]

Can you see enough of the magnet to tell if it's roughcast or polished?

Pretty much all "JBJ" pickups from '83-on had polished mags. Based on player reports (not substantiated), there may have been some bleed over during the '83-'84 period and it is also possible (though I would argue increasingly unlikely) that some roughcast mags slipped into short runs over the years if those were the only thing available from the supplier or in the shop that day, but, I can say with great certainty that, 99.9% of the time, if it has a "Seymour Duncan" logo stamped into the baseplate, it also has a polished mag.

We're to the point now where exceptions to this rule are more likely the result of player modification than a "JBJ" pickup actually having come with a roughcast mag from the factory. I would venture a guess that I had the largest collector stock of NOS JB pickups from the early-to-mid '80s, along with dozens of used examples, and there wasn't a single one from approximately '83 or later that came roughcast from the factory.

 

[superpete]

i'm really interested in this test and seeing the differences/similarities...but i don't want to be called a full of crap hype believing bad ear having fool. can we find a middle ground somewhere?

 

[playas]

Regardless of the final outcome I think Seymour Duncan needs to come out with a new pickup as a result of this thread called the "Gotcha".

If no clearer alternative presents itself, a prod jb with different coloured insulation on the pickup wire would be the obvious choice :joke:

...as you were...