The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

[theWalrus]

Hi Folks,

I was thinking of getting a Bluesbreaker combo myself, and I did a bit of research. In the process of doing so, I realized the current model is not a faithful handwired reproduction (it's the usual PCB), which to me, is a turn-off.

As you may know, the 50th anniversary, limited edition version is true to spec, but really overpriced. Luckily enough, I found an alternative, and I'd like to hear your thoughts in getting that Beano tone.

Let me start with the specs for a comparison:

Marshall 50th Anniversary Limited Edition 1962 Bluesbreaker Combo Amplifier
US$6,999.99 (MSRP $9,500.00)

30 Watts RMS
2 x Alnico T652 Speakers (re-issue 'Greenback' 25 Watt Speakers)
Aluminium Chassis
Hand-wired Tag Board
4 x ECC83 Pre-amp Tubes
2 x KT66 Power Tubes
GZ34 valve rectifier
Rare pinstripe fretcloth
Footswitchable Tremolo (Speed & Depth Controls)
Footswitch Included
4 Inputs
Bass, Middle, Treble, Presence controls
Volume I & Volume II controls
History Of The Bluesbreaker book included
Presentation wallet including signed certificate of authenticity and handbook
Branded Dust Cover

Sources:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-Custom-Les-Paul-Goldtop-Murphy-Marshall-50th-Bluesbreaker-Amp-Limited-50-/231102613982?pt=Guitar&hash=item35ceca09de

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marshall-50th-Anniversary-Limited-Edition-1962-Bluesbreaker-Combo-Amplifier-/321261771539?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4accb19b13&nma=true&si=ihMDZy93hJa19gJyv%252B5hjRILzuA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#shpCntId

Marshall 1962HW Handwired Bluesbreaker Guitar Combo Amp

Pre-Order Today! Expected 12/27/2013
US$3,999.99 (MSRP US$5,800.00)

30 Watts
4xECC83 & 2xKT66 valves
Celestion G12-C speakers
GZ34 valve rectifier
Four inputs
Handwired Tag Board Circuits
Tremolo Feature (footswitch included with all models)
Vintage Toggle Switches, power indicators and cosmetic styling
Handwired in the UK
Voltage and Impedance Selector Switch
Full EQ section and 4 inputs

Source:

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-MAR-BB30HW-LIST?src=Y0802G00SRCHCAPN&gclid=CM-LyZ7xvLsCFYiVfgodoC4AYQ

The punchline!

Looks like the only difference are:

- The speakers in the 1962HW are Celestion G12-C, instead of Alnico T652/Greenback
> Maybe I can order them from Marshall as replacement parts!

- The 50th anniversary one has details in gold, whereas the 1962HW has details in white.
- The grill cloth MAY BE slightly different
> Who cares!

- $3,000 in savings if you go for a 1962HW

Question

Besides the most important factor (your own hands), which speaker G12-C/T652/Greenback gets closer to Beano? They are probably all close enough, and from what I've read nobody knows what speakers Clapton actually used in those recording sessions.

My best regards to all

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

or get yourself a ceriatone with all the good stuff
http://www.ceriatone.com/productSubPages/BSJTM45BB/BSJTM45BB_Complete.htm

 

[theWalrus]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

or get yourself a ceriatone with all that good stuff for about a grand.

The price is attractive. But, with all respect, that sounds the same as recommending a Chibson for someone who wants a Gibson. In my opinion, the problem with those kits is that

- The parts are probably not true to spec

- It's "Do It Yourself" (DIY). It's a time investment. Plus, you have to know how to assemble it right and safely.

Even if you take it to a recommended "technician" for assembly, it's a coin toss. To give you an idea, I've had serious problems with an authorized Marshall repair center. Turned out it's a place that looked legit on paper, but shouldn't even be in repair business. Long story short, it's run by crooks.

- The most important question is: will you be happy with it in the end?

I bet those 1962HW will be even cheaper in a year or so... on ebay.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Chibson - not really man. The components and construction are all top shelf. The longer you look into this stuff the more it will make sense. You can also get them to assemble it for you so no worries about DIY.
There are also other manufacturers who can build comparable quality stuff closer to home. A little research and you'l find a plethora of stuff that is at least the equal to and in many cases superior to the Marshall badged product.
BTW, if it is the marshall logo that is important to you those are easy to get hold of on ebay.
Just keep researching your options. You will find that the actual marshall HW stuff, while being a nice amp, is not better in any way shape or form than the clones out there. You might be surprised at how simply constructed great amps are.

 

[JeffB]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

I am a die hard Marshall guy and have been for 30 years but I am with Gibson175 here. There are alot of builders out there using the best quality parts available. If authenticity is key (and for me it often is...modded marshalls always seem to lose something in the process) just make sure they are building to spec and not doing their own little mods here and there.

That said, the Marshalls will hold their value far better down the road.

 

[theWalrus]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Chibson - not really man. The components and construction are all top shelf. The longer you look into this stuff the more it will make sense. You can also get them to assemble it for you so no worries about DIY.
There are also other manufacturers who can build comparable quality stuff closer to home. A little research and you'l find a plethora of stuff that is at least the equal to and in many cases superior to the Marshall badged product.
BTW, if it is the marshall logo that is important to you those are easy to get hold of on ebay.
Just keep researching your options. You will find that the actual marshall HW stuff, while being a nice amp, is not better in any way shape or form than the clones out there. You might be surprised at how simply constructed great amps are.

While I respect your opinion, I completely disagree. Those amps are historical, and it's not easy to find historically correct parts, considering the time that's past. Large manufacturers have quality controls and years of experience. Specially in this case, I'm pretty sure they have records of the original designs and those little details Bob in the basement can't replicate. What are "top shelf" parts anyway? That doesn't mean historically correct. You probably get the cheapest stuff made in China and "blah blah blah" from a super confident salesperson on how great their copy amps are. Reliability, customer service, and value on resale all play a role too. Yes, Marshall's, just like Gibson's are overpriced, but if you want a true to original spec amp that will give the tone you expect, then save a little bit. That's just my opinion, and you're free to disagree.

I'm more interested in discussing the speakers. There are differences between the two reissues, and I don't know which would be closest to the Beano album's tone. Have you guys tried out different speakers (G12-C/T652/Greenbacks) with a JTM45/Bluesbreaker?

Many thanks

 

[Adieu]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Hi Folks,

I was thinking of getting a Bluesbreaker combo myself, and I did a bit of research. In the process of doing so, I realized the current model is not a faithful handwired reproduction (it's the usual PCB), which to me, is a turn-off.

As you may know, the 50th anniversary, limited edition version is true to spec, but really overpriced. Luckily enough, I found an alternative, and I'd like to hear your thoughts in getting that Beano tone.

Let me start with the specs for a comparison:

Marshall 50th Anniversary Limited Edition 1962 Bluesbreaker Combo Amplifier
US$6,999.99 (MSRP $9,500.00)

30 Watts RMS
2 x Alnico T652 Speakers (re-issue 'Greenback' 25 Watt Speakers)
Aluminium Chassis
Hand-wired Tag Board
4 x ECC83 Pre-amp Tubes
2 x KT66 Power Tubes
GZ34 valve rectifier
Rare pinstripe fretcloth
Footswitchable Tremolo (Speed & Depth Controls)
Footswitch Included
4 Inputs
Bass, Middle, Treble, Presence controls
Volume I & Volume II controls
History Of The Bluesbreaker book included
Presentation wallet including signed certificate of authenticity and handbook
Branded Dust Cover

Sources:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gibson-Custom-Les-Paul-Goldtop-Murphy-Marshall-50th-Bluesbreaker-Amp-Limited-50-/231102613982?pt=Guitar&hash=item35ceca09de

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marshall-50th-Anniversary-Limited-Edition-1962-Bluesbreaker-Combo-Amplifier-/321261771539?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4accb19b13&nma=true&si=ihMDZy93hJa19gJyv%252B5hjRILzuA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#shpCntId

Marshall 1962HW Handwired Bluesbreaker Guitar Combo Amp

Pre-Order Today! Expected 12/27/2013
US$3,999.99 (MSRP US$5,800.00)

30 Watts
4xECC83 & 2xKT66 valves
Celestion G12-C speakers
GZ34 valve rectifier
Four inputs
Handwired Tag Board Circuits
Tremolo Feature (footswitch included with all models)
Vintage Toggle Switches, power indicators and cosmetic styling
Handwired in the UK
Voltage and Impedance Selector Switch
Full EQ section and 4 inputs

Source:

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-MAR-BB30HW-LIST?src=Y0802G00SRCHCAPN&gclid=CM-LyZ7xvLsCFYiVfgodoC4AYQ

The punchline!

Looks like the only difference are:

- The speakers in the 1962HW are Celestion G12-C, instead of Alnico T652/Greenback
> Maybe I can order them from Marshall as replacement parts!

- The 50th anniversary one has details in gold, whereas the 1962HW has details in white.
- The grill cloth MAY BE slightly different
> Who cares!

- $3,000 in savings if you go for a 1962HW

Question

Besides the most important factor (your own hands), which speaker G12-C/T652/Greenback gets closer to Beano? They are probably all close enough, and from what I've read nobody knows what speakers Clapton actually used in those recording sessions.

My best regards to all

Want it handwired? Pay some electronics wiz working out of his mums garage to build you one. The schematics aint exactly top secret classified

...save yourself a couple grand, too

While I respect your opinion, I completely disagree. Those amps are historical, and it's not easy to find historically correct parts, considering the time that's past. Large manufacturers have quality controls and years of experience. Specially in this case, I'm pretty sure they have records of the original designs and those little details Bob in the basement can't replicate. What are "top shelf" parts anyway? That doesn't mean historically correct. You probably get the cheapest stuff made in China and "blah blah blah" from a super confident salesperson on how great their copy amps are. Reliability, customer service, and value on resale all play a role too. Yes, Marshall's, just like Gibson's are overpriced, but if you want a true to original spec amp that will give the tone you expect, then save a little bit. That's just my opinion, and you're free to disagree.

I'm more interested in discussing the speakers. There are differences between the two reissues, and I don't know which would be closest to the Beano album's tone. Have you guys tried out different speakers (G12-C/T652/Greenbacks) with a JTM45/Bluesbreaker?

Many thanks

You COULD source your own parts to your liking and just pay some dude to wire it up....with however much authenticity you desire

Marshall aint using the originals either, btw. The original equipment is long replaced, the old suppliers are gone (and theyd never wrap their costcutting corporate heads around NOS parts), and the people that built them are long retired or dead for the most part, so its still a copy, just a copy by the same company.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Just a comment on the quality of the parts used by Ceriatone...not all cheep made in China junk, not by a long shot. I have played a few Ceriatone amps and I'd stack them up against amps costing 2 or 3 times as much any day of the week.

As for the Marshall being more "historically accurate", sorry but if we go by the HW amps from a few years ago (the Super Lead and the 18 and 20 watters while they are well made they are not completely historically accurate anyway. They are more historically accurate than the PCB amps but thats about it.

If you want dead nuts correct find a smaller builder that will use NOS parts...Metro or Wallace come to mind and get an amp from them and in the end it'll still be less than the Marshall.

If you don't have to have NOS parts get a Germino...amazing amps and I bet Greg Germino knows more about the old Marshalls than anyone left at Marshall these days!

Bottom line is the HW Marshall stuff is good but not worth the prices if you consider what you are getting and what else you can get for less money.

As for the speakers thats going to be a big debate...it has always been an unknown what speakers Eric had in his 1962, that said there are only a few options...G12M20 (Greeenback) or G12 (alnico) and the truth is simply this...Celestion builds several Greenbacks today and all of them are good but none of them are right if a mid 60's 20 watt Greenback is the benchmark and they also do a G12, and it is also a great speaker but it is also wrong if a mid 60's G12 is what you want...even the alnicos they've built for Marshalls various reissue amps over the years (Offset half stack, JH stack, etc) are good but not correct if you know what the originals sound like.

 

[Adieu]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

...and, unlike Marshall selling a brand new product, you can go buy used original greenbacks (for whichever amp you choose...or even for a Squier 15w frontman, if your heart thus desires! the possibilities are endless!!). Or, again, even track down some NOS ones (probably more difficult than random parts, though, due to their staggering popularity and ease of aftermarket speaker swaps)

Which, so long as they arent buggered up or rebuilt, are the 100% real deal. NO chinese components, NO new glues, NO new era cost cutting measures, NO changes implemented after build date.

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Another option for a DIY build is Triode Electronics. They're who I'm planning on buying a kit from for my Trainwreck build. The reason I like them is that they offer decent caps such as Mallory 150s, Sprague Orange Drops, JJ, & others, and include Classic Tone transformers, which have a good reputation.

IIRC, the Bluesbreaker is basically a combo version of the JTM45, so here's the kit you would need:
http://www.triodeelectronics.com/jtm45tubeampkit.html

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

I did a Metro JTM45 with Zo-So caps for a fraction of the cost of a HW. Metro is spot on to 66 JTM45 in most aspects, but there's a lot of variation among original plexi Marshalls even from month to month. It was a constant evolution of design and as built specs.

If you really want a HW and can justify the cost then I say go for it though. Why not? Its a cool amp.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

As for speakers most people who took and rebuilt the PCB reissue Bluesbreakers, ended up using the Alnico Blue to get as close to the Beano tone as possible. The EVH Greenback is suppossed to be the closest to a 20 watt Greenback among todays alternatives but I havn't tryed it. I usually run my Metro 45 through a 4 x12 with plain jane Greenback reissues.

 

[Adieu]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

And, at least, most of them - well, pretty much everyone except Marshall proper and the dude from Scumback speakers - don't pull sh!t like:

"True Bluesbreaker Pinstripe [speaker grille!] cloth, $450 upcharge" ....FOUR HUNDRED FIFTY US DOLLARS. FOR .C.L.O.T.H. !!

(no, no extra zeros, no missing decimal dots - just a few enterprising buggers creating, ON PURPOSE, a "false" pinstripe fabric to put on basic reissues, so they can charge 450+tax for the "real" pattern....which they buy from the textile industry @ 2 - 5 dollars wholesale, and which MAY randomly show up at your neighbourhood fabric outlet @ $7.95 / linear 56" yard or as 'samples, first one free, add'l $2/ea', in sufficient scrap size to cover two or three combo grilles or a 412 box)

 

[theWalrus]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Thanks for the comments. Looks like custom built JTM45/Bluesbreakers are very popular and enjoyed. The problem is that most of you know the inner workings of Marshall amps more than I do, so that's why I tend to be conservative.

I didn't know 3 other new hand-wired reissues are coming up along with the 1962HW (Bluesbreaker); do a Google search on the forums and you'll find: that was announced back in September. One of them is the JTM45THW (JTM45 30W head). It may be a more convenient choice for me for cranking up and getting the best tone; the head format is more accessible if you want to hook the thing up to an attenuator. As you know, there are only 2 volume knobs and no master volume.

In that case, the JTM45 would be going into an ARACOM attenuator and a vintage Hiwatt 4x12 cab with Fane speakers, which probably sound very different from Alnico Blue or EVH Greenback (thanks for the suggestion, Lake Placid Blues). I could get a 2x12 extension cab to go with the JTM45, which is more portable, but that would be more expensive than getting a Bluesbreaker with 2x12'' Celestion G12-C's. It's a trade-off. I need to think a bit more.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

And, at least, most of them - well, pretty much everyone except Marshall proper and the dude from Scumback speakers - don't pull sh!t like:

"True Bluesbreaker Pinstripe [speaker grille!] cloth, $450 upcharge" ....FOUR HUNDRED FIFTY US DOLLARS. FOR .C.L.O.T.H. !!

(no, no extra zeros, no missing decimal dots - just a few enterprising buggers creating, ON PURPOSE, a "false" pinstripe fabric to put on basic reissues, so they can charge 450+tax for the "real" pattern....which they buy from the textile industry @ 2 - 5 dollars wholesale, and which MAY randomly show up at your neighbourhood fabric outlet @ $7.95 / linear 56" yard or as 'samples, first one free, add'l $2/ea', in sufficient scrap size to cover two or three combo grilles or a 412 box)

Bluesbreaker has less to do with the look and more to do with the tonal impact.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Thanks for the comments. Looks like custom built JTM45/Bluesbreakers are very popular and enjoyed. The problem is that most of you know the inner workings of Marshall amps more than I do, so that's why I tend to be conservative.

I didn't know 3 other new hand-wired reissues are coming up along with the 1962HW (Bluesbreaker); do a Google search on the forums and you'll find: that was announced back in September. One of them is the JTM45THW (JTM45 30W head). It may be a more convenient choice for me for cranking up and getting the best tone; the head format is more accessible if you want to hook the thing up to an attenuator. As you know, there are only 2 volume knobs and no master volume.

In that case, the JTM45 would be going into an ARACOM attenuator and a vintage Hiwatt 4x12 cab with Fane speakers, which probably sound very different from Alnico Blue or EVH Greenback (thanks for the suggestion, Lake Placid Blues). I could get a 2x12 extension cab to go with the JTM45, which is more portable, but that would be more expensive than getting a Bluesbreaker with 2x12'' Celestion G12-C's. It's a trade-off. I need to think a bit more.

Once you run it into an attenuator and a Fane loaded cab the vintage Bluesbreaker tone is gone...

 

[theWalrus]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Once you run it into an attenuator and a Fane loaded cab the vintage Bluesbreaker tone is gone...

You're probably right, but I bet most of that only applies to the speakers.

The annoying thing about the Bluesbreaker combo is the volume for good tone, so I think I could get away with a JTM45 cranked, but going through a transparent attenuator (as a master volume) and into some good 2x12 extension cab with Greenbacks. I might get a vertical 2x12 cab with closed back for better bass response, and have it made a bit wider so I can put the head on top.

 

[Adieu]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Bluesbreaker has less to do with the look and more to do with the tonal impact.

Tonal impact....of CLOTH?

Forget cork sniffery, what manner of woven fiber sniffery is this?!!

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Tonal impact....of CLOTH?

Forget cork sniffery, what manner of woven fiber sniffery is this?!!

Grill cloth is cloth and you're placing it right in front of your speakers...there is an impact, no way around that.

Ever heard the line about pulling a blanket off the speakers?? The old style grill cloth is like putting the blanket back on!

Marshall used to use a cloth in the mid 60's (65 to 68 give or take) that was very thick and dense...as grill cloth goes it's not what most people really want...it really messed with the sound by rolling off a LOT of the high end of the amp and speakers.

Most of the time amp builders and speaker cab builders consider this a bad thing but if you want to really nail the sound of a mid 60's Marshall you'll find that if you use modern (post 1968) grill cloth the sound is far brighter and more in your face in the high freqs than the original amps are/were, when you kill off some of the highs then all the sudden the mids are very focused and up front.

Call it cork sniffing if you want but it does make a difference.

As for the cost of the Collins "True Bluesbreaker" cloth it's expensive to make and since he's having it made in very small batches there is no big order discount so the bottom line is it ain't cheap.

I'm not saying you have to have it I am just saying that it does make a difference.

A JTM45 with it can sound good and a JTM45 without it can sound good but both amps will sound different.

Have you ever even bothered to read their website or are you just making up your mind on a product based on it's cost??

http://www.bluesbreaker-pinstripe.com/

 

[jimijames]

Re: The mighty Marshall 1962HW (Handwired Bluesbreaker Combo)

Two observations:

1. Wow, this is dedication. My ears aren't as good obviously because I'm thrilled with a modded SD-1 and a cheap (Chinese PCB horror of horrors) 1974x clone.
2. Marshall has tremendous value in their trademark - if you're buying an amp for resale value, that's incredibly important. But, if you're buying an amp for how it sounds, the trademark is much less important. It's like a fast food burger - just because McDonald's or Wendy's has more "experience" making burgers doesn't mean they make better burgers than a local joint. I mean, that's not a perfect example because those chains compete on price too, vs. just quality like amps in that price range. But trademarks are a correlative indicator, not a qualitative one. It reduces information costs - if you liked X brand last time, you'll like it again, but if you have a bad experience with X, you can kind of eliminate it from the list of choices you're presented with when making a purchase decision. Beyond said value the mark's worth is primarily aesthetic, and beyond that there is little residual.

So, when someone says "I want a marshall version of this amp because eric clapton used the marshall version in the 1960s," I understand the sentiment instinctively but am cautious myself when the cost of that opinion gets above four digits.