The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

[Nightburst]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

I am currently studiening these lessons:

http://www.theorylessons.com

Don't know if they are good but everything is explained really easy.

 

[Bludave]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

The relation for notation purposes is based on the cycle of fifths. In the key of C there are no sharps or flats. The fifth tone in the key of c is G. G has one sharp (F#) so when music is notaed in the key of G it will be identified as 1#. Another important factor is in a major scale the 6th tone of any major scale is the relative minor. Using C as an example the 6th tone would be A. Aminor and Cmajor share the same key signature. Each 5th tone for each scale will add a Sharp. If you don't have a copy of the cycle of fifths get one./ It is a great tool to use in transposing as well as writing

 

[Norman_T]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

Trust engineers to get together!!

Modal guitar playing is more melodic sounding than pentatonic playing. This is because the pentatonic scale uses 5 notes whereas the modes uses 7 notes. The modal scale can be considered "pretty" but if you want "nasty" go for the pentatonic scale. Modes give you the ability to play fluid melodic lines. The modes all become extensions of each other and allow you to cover the entire fretboard using the same notes. For the C major scale this is:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C (C - Ionian)
D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D (D - Dorian)
E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E (E - Phrygian)
F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F (F - Lydian)
G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G (G - Mixolydian)
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A (A - Aeolian
B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B (B - Locrian)

Although they all have the same notes it is about where you start (root note) that will determine the modes and they have their own unique flavour and can be used as a starting point. It is what is called the second note concept.

By way of an illustration play the following modes and make sure that you use the second note concept to start you off. I have put some chords in brackets and you should play 1 bar of each of them so that you can get the flavour of the style. Probably the best known one is the A Aeolian as everyone uses it!!

C - Ionian = Pretty jazz type sound (over chords: Cmaj7 Fmaj7)
D - Dorian = Santana (over chords: Dmin7 G7)
E - Phrygian = Spanish, dramatic and moody (over chords: Em F G F)
F - Lydian = Psychedelic (over chords: F G)
G - Mixolydian = Blues, funky Jerry Garcia? (over chords: G F)
A - Aeolian = Rock baby!! (over chords: Am G F E min)
B - Locrian = Twisted diminished sound (over chords: B dim A min)

Get to know them because this will expand your theory!!

 

[Lee]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

Personally I think modes are a load of nonsense. Who plays scales all day? A half decent guitar player will be all over the fretboard.

 

[tone4days]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

Personally I think modes are a load of nonsense. Who plays scales all day? A half decent guitar player will be all over the fretboard.

i suppose this is one of those 'different strokes' moments ... i use modes alot because i am at least as much a visual player as i am an aural player .. i see scale patterns in my mind as i play, even with my eyes closed ... over my 25 years of playing, i've gotten a lot of finger 'muscle memory' for major scales in probably a half dozen or more positions ... in my head, i can compute which major scale goes with the mode i am after, then my fingers can noodle around those scales up and down the neck (well, within the limited facility that i posess) ... the aural part kicks in to fine tune my lines after the visual part gets me to the neighborhood

cheers
t4d

 

[Curly]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

Modal guitar playing is more melodic sounding than pentatonic playing. This is because the pentatonic scale uses 5 notes whereas the modes uses 7 notes.

that may be true, but pentatonic playing, at least in the blues, is as much about the microtones as the notes in the scale, in a similar way as inflection is to the words we use when we talk.

 

[Lee]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

i suppose this is one of those 'different strokes' moments ... i use modes alot because i am at least as much a visual player as i am an aural player .. i see scale patterns in my mind as i play, even with my eyes closed ... over my 25 years of playing, i've gotten a lot of finger 'muscle memory' for major scales in probably a half dozen or more positions ... in my head, i can compute which major scale goes with the mode i am after, then my fingers can noodle around those scales up and down the neck (well, within the limited facility that i posess) ... the aural part kicks in to fine tune my lines after the visual part gets me to the neighborhood

cheers
t4d

I actually hear in my head the notes that I play at the same instant that I play them. I find it great practice to do that George Benson type of thing whereby you make the sound with your mouth at the same time as play it.

I just keep the main scale in my mind for the key that I'm in, then if I feel like adding the 'blue note' (E flat if in the key of C) I know where it is, or I may go chromatic between scale intervals while I'm thinking ( a jazz trick).

Basically, I hear and play the main scale I'm playing in and can either add or subtract from that as I see fit.


Lee

 

[kmcguitars]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

I actually hear in my head the notes that I play at the same instant that I play them. I find it great practice to do that George Benson type of thing whereby you make the sound with your mouth at the same time as play it.

I just keep the main scale in my mind for the key that I'm in, then if I feel like adding the 'blue note' (E flat if in the key of C) I know where it is, or I may go chromatic between scale intervals while I'm thinking ( a jazz trick).

Basically, I hear and play the main scale I'm playing in and can either add or subtract from that as I see fit.


Lee

Hmmmm, Sounds suspiciously Like Jimi Hendrix's approach to guitar? :laugh2:
George Benson is a great player. I dig the mouth thing. Just like Jimi did
on his Solo for Manic Depression. :13:

 

[BornToShred]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

Personally I think modes are a load of nonsense. Who plays scales all day? A half decent guitar player will be all over the fretboard.

Studying scales and their modes gives you an understanding of tonality. This will enable you to play more freely on your instrument. All over the fretboard, if you will.
I get your point, though. Knowing your theory is just half (or less?) of the equation, knowing what to do with it is the rest.

Sure, SRV didn't know **** about scales, Santana doesn't, EVH doesn't know that much either, and so on and so on. But i'd say that studying scales and harmony is easier than learning by trial and error.

 

[Lee]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

Studying scales and their modes gives you an understanding of tonality. This will enable you to play more freely on your instrument. All over the fretboard, if you will.
I get your point, though. Knowing your theory is just half (or less?) of the equation, knowing what to do with it is the rest.

Sure, SRV didn't know **** about scales, Santana doesn't, EVH doesn't know that much either, and so on and so on. But i'd say that studying scales and harmony is easier than learning by trial and error.

I agree to a degree, and I think any new guitar player should study theory.
However, as you've said, most of the guitar 'Gods' know little of theory which is why they develop their own sound.

From a personal point of view, if I can hear it in my head, I can play it. If I can't hear it, then I don't want to play it anyway.

I do find playing different types of music very useful. That's why I love these jams we get in the forum.


Lee

 

[Norman_T]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

You should be able to sing your lead lines, that way you are in command of the guitar and not the other way around. A lot of players just put their fingers in whatever positions or play notes and don't understand the relationship of where things are. Sometimes it works but a lot of times it can be awful. If you study some people - George Benson, BB KIng - they are either singing or mouthing the notes they are playing. It is quite possible that you will be doing this as well but probably you don't realise it, next time you play have a mirror in front of you and watch your mouth movements when you play.

It is very true that many players don't have any idea of theory but that has not stopped them from being very good players - Santana, Clapton, EVH etc. The whole idea of understanding or getting to know some theory is to stop you getting into a rut and just playing the same notes/lines time and time again. If people find it useful to visualise or even write them down then whatever suits their needs.

So theory and understanding the modes is important if you want to grow and expand but there are other things that you would need to also know once you have started to grow. Nearly every guitar solo uses one or more combinations of the following:

1. Major and minor pentatonic scales.
2. Modes of the major scale.
3. Double stops.
4. Chord-tone approach.
5. Altered scales

 

[gordon_39422]

Re: The Relationship Between Scales and Keyes

I have really enjoyed this thread and look foward to more technical threads on theory in the future. I am a theory newbie and have been trying to absorb every piece of information I cross. I have found that working through the CAGED system of scales, I have opened a can of worms that has broadened my horizons in music, particularly solos. Even further, rather than learning the scale patterns, I have been trying to recognize intervals so that I can switch roots on the fly. As the old adage goes, Pratice Doesn't Make Perfect, Perfect Practice Makes Perfect! Looking foward to more technical threads in the future!!