Thoughts on scatter wound single coils

[DreX]

I've been reading articles and watching videos on the art of pickup winding, specifically to figure out how much potential for variation there is when a pickup is machine wound or hand wound, and how much room for variation exists between the two.

I saw something on Zhangbucker's site that struck me http://www.zhangbucker.com/humbuckers.html

Another complaint about humbuckers, particularly vintage output models intended for the bridge position, is a midrange scoop that exaggerates the treble (the dreaded “icepick in the ear”). Such pickups usually lack the midrange warmth and guts to keep the treble from standing out so strong. In many cases they double down on this problem by emphasizing the most unpleasant combination of frequencies in the treble range.

This is often the result of a far too neat wind pattern, the kind that makes electrical engineers to salute and guitar players cry. It makes a pickup sound both harsh and 2-dimensional, like when your ears are plugged from a cold and you can’t tell if a sound is coming from right next to you or a block away. Often this problem is made even worse by the choice of materials – polepieces, slugs and keeper bars made of steel alloys that only sharpen that icepick. The result is a pickup that drives guitar players crazy as they constantly adjust their EQ in vain – because they are STUCK WITH A PICKUP THAT PARADOXICALLY SOUNDS BOTH TOO BRIGHT AND TOO DARK AT THE SAME TIME!

To me this describes Texas Specials perfectly, too dark and too bright at the same time.

If it were graphed out, I imagine you'd see a lower peak resonance with a higher amplitude than a more typical vintage single coil. I read one source that said Fender's are not hand guided, and given their high production volume, that seems reasonable to assume. This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M2a1yUmvEQ shows an older lady hand guiding wire, but she moves her hand slow and I'm thinking those winds must be laid pretty close to one another. I'm not sure how many winding stations they have, or if this lady even wound the Texas Specials I have for reference. Despite this video, none of Fender's pickup products seem to boast "hand wound" or anything of the sort, and that is most definitely a selling point that you would not leave out.

The other CS Fender pickups I have on hand are "Fat 50's", and they too are much darker than my Lollars and Fralins of the same materials and similar winds. I'd describe their voicing as Ant II Surfers that had been shot with tranquilizer darts. I keep them around as a point of reference, but there's really nothing special about them. I like the Texas Specials because if you're gentle with them, the peaky highs are can be a strength instead of a weakness.

Could Fender's winding practices be the reason so many people hate Texas Specials, and the reason they have the peculiar high end?

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Thoughts on scatter wound single coils

The pattern does matter very VERY much, although to be fair to Fender, back in my prewinding days I bought a 50's reissue Strat (which I still have) and replaced the ceramic+steel slug stocks with Fat 50's. Although I have since replaced them with my homebrews, they were a huge improvement and I still think they're pretty good pu's.

 

[DreX]

Re: Thoughts on scatter wound single coils

I believe wind matters, but "a lot" or "a little" seems harder to pin down. There's also the question of whether scatter pattern matters, or only the cumulative effect the wind has on overall self capacitance. I haven't seen any hard facts, and it's the the boutique winder's best interest to play it up as much as possible. Of course they're going to say their distinguishing characteristics make a massive difference.

What have you compared your Fat 50's to, and how closely did you compare them?

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Thoughts on scatter wound single coils

I believe wind matters, but "a lot" or "a little" seems harder to pin down. There's also the question of whether scatter pattern matters, or only the cumulative effect the wind has on overall self capacitance. I haven't seen any hard facts, and it's the the boutique winder's best interest to play it up as much as possible. Of course they're going to say their distinguishing characteristics make a massive difference.

What have you compared your Fat 50's to, and how closely did you compare them?

I don't think it's hard to pin down at all, certainly not by the ear test. I will speak only for myself as a winder and say I don't know the exact science behind why the patterns matter, I only know that they just do. Certainly it has an effect on the coil capacitance but whether that's the whole shebang right there or the pattern has effects on eddy currents or whatever else, I don't know. But If you would like to participate in an experiment with wind patterns, PM me.

It's been a while but I thought the Fat 50's were much better than the Texas Specials (I agree with you on their 2-D-ness) and other Fender stocks (and not just the MIM ceramics) and DiMarzio VV models I tried back in the day. I thought the 50's were on par with the Antiquity Custom bridge for clarity and overall tone quality.

 

[DreX]

Re: Thoughts on scatter wound single coils

It would be cool if a winder would make two pickups, one with a crazy nuts scatter, and another with uniform layers, each with identical wind count, and then figured out what the peak resonance was for each pickup, just to see how much wind alone was able to push the value. I don't know how to actually determine peak resonance though, I've been meaning to look into it. It involves some trial and error I think.

When you say "I thought the 50's were on par with the Antiquity Custom bridge for clarity and overall tone quality" , are you referring to the Ant. I or Ant II? Because the Ant I is A2, so if you're likening that to the A5 boasting Fat 50's, that's more insult than compliment.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Thoughts on scatter wound single coils

It would be cool if a winder would make two pickups, one with a crazy nuts scatter, and another with uniform layers, each with identical wind count,

Like I said, PM me.

and then figured out what the peak resonance was for each pickup, just to see how much wind alone was able to push the value. I don't know how to actually determine peak resonance though, I've been meaning to look into it.

I don't either but it doesn't matter. The only test that matters is the ear test.

When you say "I thought the 50's were on par with the Antiquity Custom bridge for clarity and overall tone quality" , are you referring to the Ant. I or Ant II? Because the Ant I is A2, so if you're likening that to the A5 boasting Fat 50's, that's more insult than compliment.

I was referring to the 9.7k/A2 model, whichever that is. You may have missed my point. I did not say the Fat 50's sound just like an Ant Custom bridge -- they are different winds with different mags and thus designed for different sounds. I only meant that the level of sound quality for what each was designed for was close, not that they sounded the same. I take it you hate the Fat 50's?

 

[DreX]

Re: Thoughts on scatter wound single coils

I wouldn't feel right commissioning anybody to carry out this test since I'm still reading about the subject and don't think I've exhausted my avenues to the point where a practical test is the only option.

I'd specifically avoid ear tests if I could do measurements because one is objective and the other isn't. It's the difference between a ground breaking discovery and a near complete waste of time. Just look at the 50's wiring thread, we have people claiming they can hear the difference in attenuation imposed by +/- 0.1 ohms of resistance.

The Fat 50's are darker to my ears than Fralin's, Lollars or SD Ant IIs, and I'm prettty certain they are either not scatter wound, or at least not scatter wound with the same attention to detail as Lollars or Fralins, who boast the fact that their pickups are scatter/hand wound. When you get down to it, scatter winding might the one and only thing that makes a boutique single coil pickup worth any of the trouble.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Thoughts on scatter wound single coils

Suit yourself. But the invitation remains open.

As far as not trusting ear tests, the only reason we even care about these objective measurements in the first place is the difference it might make to the ear. If the ear can't hear the difference, the objective measurements don't matter and have nothing to do with the price of tea in China or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. But I submit the difference you would hear would not be exactly subtle.

 

[DreX]

Re: Thoughts on scatter wound single coils

I'd like to take you up on the offer if searching around the internet yields nothing. If you wind and sell pickups, I would even buy them fair and square, no freebies. To my mind, this is getting close the heart of the matter when it comes to the whole cottage industry of replacement pickups for Strats. I might like to get some pickups with various wind patterns, having at least one be as neatly layered as possible, the very thing that scatter winding tries to avoid.

I had some alnico MIM pickups come stock in my Antigua reissues, which is kind of a rare thing, they were constructed similar to Tex Mex pickups, but with a lower wind count. They sounded like ****, worse than their usual ceramic fare, by far. Brittle and thin as all get out, like Zhangbuckers described, it was a lot of treble, but not the good kind of treble. Most likely machine wound to save money. I wanted to like them, too. I have nothing but good thoughts about Mexico and their products.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Thoughts on scatter wound single coils

When I could drink, I was a fan of Dos Equis lager.

I am a hand-winder but machine wound doesn't necessarily mean bad pickups. At least in theory, you could get a CNC type machine and program every turn and duplicate the pattern and tension you use with hand winding. The wire doesn't care how it gets laid on in a certain pattern, whether by hand or high tech machine. If it's the same pattern and tension, it will sound the same.