Threaded neck Inserts

[ganzosrevenge]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

The plate on my fender is solid steel. I've got the machine bolts in, and my plate has no bends or kinks in it. Granted my finish has sunken in, but I also had to contend with 2 screws that were overwound from the factory and stripping the neck's screw circles themselves, compound that with having 2 switchable Pickguards, and the modfication is semi-justified. Thus my under the plate finish was smooshed from the get go. Zerb, if you look at the pics I have where i take a 3/4 profile of the strat, there isn't any bend in the plate as far as I can see. The problem is, as 3nz said, that many people go "the tighter the better!" and thus go insanely tight. (Onyx Forge doesn't recommend more than 30 in - lbs for each zinc insert and something around 45 in - lbs for the stainless ones.) Once you go too tight, then you have more than just the finish to worry about. What if you get a neck joint crack... then you have a ruined body.

When I got the inserts in my guitar, I actually went to home depot and bought a nice basic torque screwdriver that I could put a phillips bit on so I could rejoin my neck properly. The trick is, as mentioned earlier to do it right. No use cheaping out on zinc or brass when they are either brittle or bendable, or a hybrid of both brittle and bendable. One thing I would like to ask Zerb, from a tech to a luthier, is what data he is basing his "finish and plate mess" on in the sense of companies. Is it merely based on Fenders, or also on more "boutique" makes such as Suhr, TAG, Callaham, etc. (Please don't take that inquiry the wrong way, I'm curious to learn what the stats show and I want to learn.)

PS: Zerb's a good guy, he knows his stuff, and In the 6 or so months I've been on here, he's really helped me figure out what's good and what isn't good for a strat (or bolt-on guitar), and this thread is no exception. :headbang: for Zerb!

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

...One thing I would like to ask Zerb, from a tech to a luthier, is what data he is basing his "finish and plate mess" on in the sense of companies. Is it merely based on Fenders, or also on more "boutique" makes such as Suhr, TAG, Callaham, etc. (Please don't take that inquiry the wrong way, I'm curious to learn what the stats show and I want to learn.)

Personal experience, but its less of a brand specific issue and more of a player /tech specific one, as almost no reputable maker cinches the bolts down so tight as to devalue their instruments right off the line. Some of the more higher volume companies that leave out a day or 2 in the drying process significantly increase their risk of facilitating a crushed finish, but only rarely do these flaws come "as factory equipment"

Most common cause is IMO most definitely inexperienced techs and players that think "The tighter the better" and start going after the bolts with huge screwdrivers and ratchets, completely oblivious to the fact stat steel is stronger than wood and that at a certain point that screw is either gonna break (that´s what happens on mine when the screw gets overtorqued) or it´s gonna strip the threads (the most common result). Either way it makes a repair necessary that the inclusion of 2 brain cells more into the tightening process could have avoided

PS: Zerb's a good guy, he knows his stuff, and In the 6 or so months I've been on here, he's really helped me figure out what's good and what isn't good for a strat (or bolt-on guitar), and this thread is no exception. :headbang: for Zerb!

thank you, but the good guy part is something that others will certainly want to contradict... I´m just a callous dillhole that happens to know how to build guitars

 

[gmacdonnell]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

I've been using threaded inserts for years. Not only does it improve resonance and sustain, but it makes adjustments much easier, and yu never have to worry about stripping the neck.

I'd highly recommend it for any Fender-style guitar, if you play it a lot, want a tonal improvement, or it has a weak neck joint.

I would recommend using a thicker neck plate though: I use Vintique stainless steel.
This allows you to get the joint absolutely as tight as possible.

It's also important, (for tone,) to make sure that there isn't any trace of pant or compound in the neck joint, and I always sand the lacquer off the neck where it meets the body.
I wouldn't have believed that made a huge difference, but after trying it once I started doing it to all my other Teles, and they all have a noticeable improvement in tone and sustain.

 

[ganzosrevenge]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

Personal experience, but its less of a brand specific issue and more of a player /tech specific one, as almost no reputable maker cinches the bolts down so tight as to devalue their instruments right off the line. Some of the more higher volume companies that leave out a day or 2 in the drying process significantly increase their risk of facilitating a crushed finish, but only rarely do these flaws come "as factory equipment"

Most common cause is IMO most definitely inexperienced techs and players that think "The tighter the better" and start going after the bolts with huge screwdrivers and ratchets, completely oblivious to the fact stat steel is stronger than wood and that at a certain point that screw is either gonna break (that´s what happens on mine when the screw gets overtorqued) or it´s gonna strip the threads (the most common result). Either way it makes a repair necessary that the inclusion of 2 brain cells more into the tightening process could have avoided

And this is why i'm agreeing with you. I don't have a crushed finish, there's just a "neckplate was here" indent in the poly, and that's from the factory. And your explanation is why I have a torque driver that's only rated to 60 in - lb. Keeps me from destroying things going "I can go to infinity and beyond!". Right now each screw is at 45 in / lb, which is what was recommended for ST ST inserts, so as long as I remember that, I'm golden. As with all mods or work that requires screwing wood to wood, if you don't get stupid, and you follow instructions, then you're ok

I would recommend using a thicker neck plate though: I use Vintique stainless steel.
This allows you to get the joint absolutely as tight as possible.

It's also important, (for tone,) to make sure that there isn't any trace of pant or compound in the neck joint, and I always sand the lacquer off the neck where it meets the body.
I wouldn't have believed that made a huge difference, but after trying it once I started doing it to all my other Teles, and they all have a noticeable improvement in tone and sustain.

a) does vintique make one in stainless for a contoured heel?
b) i guess I got lucky... my heel only came with a date stamp on it... there wasn't any paint residue, and there's no lacquer left where neck meets body. Result: sustains like nuts, and as a side benefit keeps in tune better.
c) as for "as tight as possible"... famous last words when an insert breaks... don't go beyond the manufacturer's suggested torque amount unless you want a busted neck. One of the following will happen.
1) you'll brreak the finish
2) you'll crank so hard the insert will start coming OUT of the guitar, bringing whatever wood it's snagged with it
3) if it's a zinc insert, you'll break the insert inside the neck, and you'll need a drill or an allen wrench to extricate said insert... and possibly ruin a neck
4) if it's the screw itself that breaks, new neck or new body or a LOT of WD-40.

This is why if you're going to buy these, you shouldn't just get parts off say mcmaster-carr and fly blind. There are great dealers who have fully detailed instructions on how to do the installation properly to minimize risk of damage to your guitar. Onyx Forge is one such company, where everything is spelled out in mind-numbing detail by someone who builds guitars and has done trial and error to see what does and doesn't work. Better to spend some extra money from a company and get full instructions than to fly blind cuz ya wanna save $10 and end up having to spend $400 or whatever on a replacement neck.

Just my .02

Jason.

 

[gmacdonnell]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

And this is why i'm agreeing with you. I don't have a crushed finish, there's just a "neckplate was here" indent in the poly, and that's from the factory. And your explanation is why I have a torque driver that's only rated to 60 in - lb. Keeps me from destroying things going "I can go to infinity and beyond!". Right now each screw is at 45 in / lb, which is what was recommended for ST ST inserts, so as long as I remember that, I'm golden. As with all mods or work that requires screwing wood to wood, if you don't get stupid, and you follow instructions, then you're ok

a) does vintique make one in stainless for a contoured heel?
c) as for "as tight as possible"... famous last words when an insert breaks... don't go beyond the manufacturer's suggested torque amount unless you want a busted neck. One of the following will happen.
1) you'll brreak the finish
2) you'll crank so hard the insert will start coming OUT of the guitar, bringing whatever wood it's snagged with it
3) if it's a zinc insert, you'll break the insert inside the neck, and you'll need a drill or an allen wrench to extricate said insert... and possibly ruin a neck
4) if it's the screw itself that breaks, new neck or new body or a LOT of WD-40.

This is why if you're going to buy these, you shouldn't just get parts off say mcmaster-carr and fly blind. There are great dealers who have fully detailed instructions on how to do the installation properly to minimize risk of damage to your guitar. is one such company, where everything is spelled out in mind-numbing detail by someone who builds guitars and has done trial and error to see what does and doesn't work. Better to spend some extra money from a company and get full instructions than to fly blind cuz ya wanna save $10 and end up having to spend $400 or whatever on a replacement neck.

Just my .02

Jason.

I agree with you, Jason. When I said "as tight as possible" i didn't mean, as tight as the screws can be, I meant as tight as the guitar and parts will allow. without damage.

I've used inserts for a long time, but most of the time, I've have Jay Montrose, (Danny Gatton's tech, and the man behind the Vintique company,)
do the job. I've done it twice, and don't have a problem with it, but for such an important component, I'd rather leave it to someone who has decade of experience doing this kind of work.


He does make custom parts, and has made a plate for a contoured neck heel I have on one tele, but it was a Warmth custom body, and the contour wasn't as curved as some other designs I've seen.


But he's a master at machining beautiful, incredible strong, great sounding parts that will last a lifetime. They're not cheap, but they're definitely worth it if you want the ultimate Tele.

If you're interesting in having that plate made, you could talk to him and see what you need to get the job done. Tell him I sent you, and he'll be more agreeable to doing it!

 

[ganzosrevenge]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

I agree with you, Jason. When I said "as tight as possible" i didn't mean, as tight as the screws can be, I meant as tight as the guitar and parts will allow. without damage.

I've used inserts for a long time, but most of the time, I've have Jay Montrose, (Danny Gatton's tech, and the man behind the Vintique company,)
do the job. I've done it twice, and don't have a problem with it, but for such an important component, I'd rather leave it to someone who has decade of experience doing this kind of work.


He does make custom parts, and has made a plate for a contoured neck heel I have on one tele, but it was a Warmth custom body, and the contour wasn't as curved as some other designs I've seen.


But he's a master at machining beautiful, incredible strong, great sounding parts that will last a lifetime. They're not cheap, but they're definitely worth it if you want the ultimate Tele.

If you're interesting in having that plate made, you could talk to him and see what you need to get the job done. Tell him I sent you, and he'll be more agreeable to doing it!

some people on here mistake "as tight as can be" as let's get out the nuclear powered screwdriver!. I left mine to a tech who has about 20 years experience, and he said it took him 6 hours and a lot of dead tools to get the stainless inserts in... however the sustain rivals my mother's takamine... albeit it it's not quite as loud (for obvious reasons). The contoured heel on a strat looks like the one on the newer Jeff Beck Strats, which for some reason the plate hasn't bent in spite of the fact that with a smaller plate area (and thus greater clamping power). What inserts did you use for your teles? (zinc, brass, stainless, etc.) Just curious

Jason

 

[gmacdonnell]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

I've always used stainless steel, though I do wonder how brass would sound.

Almost all of the guitars have the Vintique kit:
http://www.vintique.com/www.vintique.com/neckkits.html

Danny Gatton and Dan Erlewine both swear by Jay's stuff, and the inserts I just can't recommend enough, for tone, stability and long-term reliability.

If the plate on your guitar is like the JB Strat, I bet Jay could work something out for it, but I'm not sure what it would cost.

Onyx Forge looks like great stuff: good to heard of another quality maker.

 

[ganzosrevenge]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

yea, roy is a great guy. He builds machine-screw-on necked guitars and they're filled with high-end goodies. He also knows his stuff when it comes to inserts. He's also one of a few to have built a legit 1 piece guitar, and apparently its sustain defies all that we know of guitar sustain / resonance physics due to its singularity. It is nice to see there is more than just one answer to the problem, but I wouldn't go with anything less than stainless for this application. You want strong and sturdy, brittle is not an option with this, and that's why I wouldn't experiment with brass.

 

[gmacdonnell]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

That's why i haven't tried it: i just am always curiouw how different woods and metals will affect tone...

Glad to hear about Onyx Guitar Forge. I see some of their stuff in my future...

 

[Blille]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

Reviving this 10 year old thread to know what you all think about neck inserts these days.

I currently don’t take guitars with me on short trips but this would definitely help.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

When I was trying to get my G&L Tribute setup, one of the bridge screws was stuck. While trying to remove it, I pulled the threaded insert from the body. I know it’s not the same, but I’m apprehensive of inserts.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

Never tried 'em myself but I've been interested in the idea. Don't think I'd do it simply for the sake of trying it because it's not reversible.

My bolt-ons hardly ever get taken apart; it's been more than twenty years since I pulled a neck, and that was on a vintage '63 Strat that I wouldn't dream of modding.

If I ever had a neck with badly stripped holes on a non-vintage guitar, though, I'd consider it.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

My bolt-ons hardly ever get taken apart...

I've had the neck off my Peavey Predator a million times. It has a 22 fret extension, so the pickguard won't come out with the neck in place. I used to swap pickups and try different wiring schemes in in frequently, so like I said, it's been broken down a lot. However, I'm careful whenever I take the screws in or out, and have had zero issue.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

My Brian Moore uses them. I have no idea why using plain wood screws is still a thing. Inserts make a lot more sense. If I were designing a guitar, I'd be using threaded inserts for all screws that needed a strong bond, and magnets for the rest.

 

[dystrust]

Re: Threaded neck Inserts

Never tried 'em myself but I've been interested in the idea. Don't think I'd do it simply for the sake of trying it because it's not reversible.

My bolt-ons hardly ever get taken apart; it's been more than twenty years since I pulled a neck, and that was on a vintage '63 Strat that I wouldn't dream of modding.

If I ever had a neck with badly stripped holes on a non-vintage guitar, though, I'd consider it.

It is absolutely reversible. The Squier Strat I mentioned back in 2009 was modded for inserts shortly thereafter, and the tech botched the install because he thought he knew better and didn't follow the instructions. Instead of reinstalling them properly (like I wanted) he doweled the holes and re-attached the neck with the typical wood screws. I ended up trading the guitar back to my brother a few months later and he sold it when he got laid off and was broke.