Timelines on celebrity pickups

Mark Abbott

Mark Abbott

New member
I usually am suspicious of any company offers celebrity pickups who hasn’t got some sort of documented history with them. I have seen numerous Peter Green humbucker sets with different specs, while not wanting out of phase pickups it fuels my distrust.

I recently saw a comment about SD Jimmy Page set and to be honest I can’t pin point a time when Page started using Duncan pickups. I could be wrong, but I recall reading online (historically inaccurate) that the LZ guitar didn’t have the switching options and may have even had a T top humbucker, from the Norlin era which some people have some distain for.

The same can be said about the SD Jimi Hendrix pickups. Seymour really doesn’t say too much other than he wound a set of pickups and was fortunate enough to have the opportunity for Hendrix to try them. However we don’t really know what Hendrix thought of them, he could have treasured them or he could have smashed and burnt the guitar glad never to use those pickups again. Even construction wise, the wire would have been available, but the formers and magnets would have been an uncommon item back then. The question of what test equipment Seymour had available to him at the time also would have influenced his work.

I hope people don’t find this offensive (though some people seem to be born offended) but I’m after more of the back story and timelines.

Regards

Mark
 
So, is there a question there, or are you just voicing your distrust of pickups sets that have an endorsement or history behind them?

Any Duncans with a celebrity name attached does have a documented history with that artist. You might want to do further reading.

Seymour wound humbuckers that were used in Page's guitar but they were installed later, after the peak of the LZ heyday.

It's true no one knows what Jimi thought about the pickups. But Duncan doesn't claim anything other than those are wound similarly to a set Seymour did that was used by Jimi in the mid 60's.

The Greenies are an approximation of the sound of that particular guitar, basically a set of aged PAFs with one reversed magnet. I don't believe Seymour wound anything for Peter Green directly or had his endorsement (but I could be wrong on that.). But that is also why they were never represented as 'The Peter Green Set'

If you want to try any of them, go for it. If you don't think they would work for you or do anything for your sound, skip 'em.
 
I think if you go check the pickup descriptions on the main site, most give a year(s) when the pickups were first (re)wound/built. There are also some pics and background for a few, in blogs/articles on the main site.

There are also some that no direct relationship is claimed. The High Voltage and Green Magic come to mind as just being designed to give those tones.
 
JamesPaul said:
I think if you go check the pickup descriptions on the main site, most give a year(s) when the pickups were first (re)wound/built. There are also some pics and background for a few, in blogs/articles on the main site.

There are also some that no direct relationship is claimed. The High Voltage and Green Magic come to mind as just being designed to give those tones.
Click to expand...

Actually, the High Voltage set IS a set the Custom Shop did for Angus Young. Darth got his facts from MJ directly.

https://darthphineas.com/2022/05/seymour-duncan-high-voltage/
 
I believe SD is very careful in their wording of the descriptions. There is a big difference in the ad copy for the YJM set, and the High Voltage set.
 
Yeah - I'd be pretty comfortable that anything Seymour said is gospell about who & how it was done.
 
The reply I agree with most is that SD is being careful with his wording. I’m not here to demonise Seymour, I have had my share of SD pickups. Though I think I’d scream if I read someone talking about another set of Duane Allman Hot Atlanta or Fillmore pickups, knowing no one has actually measured them. I admire Jon at Throbak pickups for his efforts to educate his clientele, I don’t think anyone has gone to that much effort.

I get the impression that in the early days Seymour was largely over winding pickups for more output (which is fair enough as there was/is demand for it.) so I assumed the Hendrix pickups would be following this philosophy.

I’m not disparaging the Hendrix pickup set, I suspect they would have been better than the set that he originally put in Hendrix’s guitar, as he has had so much more experience since then. I don’t mention the JB humbucker as Jeff Beck does have history with Seymour.

The Page pickups are the ones I question, are they copies of pickups in Page’s vintage Les Paul’s (whole lotta Humbucker would suggest so), or the pickups Page likes in recent times?

SD Green set sounds good, but I don’t think it’s as authentic as the Bare Knuckle set (I thought they had some access to the guitar) or the Monty’s guitar set where he has had access to the guitar, and incorporates the formvar wire in the neck pickup and the pickup is wax dipped etc.

Anyway, thanks for your interest in my question, much appreciated.

Regards

Mark
 
Only my opinion, but the Page pickups were uniquely wound by Seymour. Who knows if you ever heard them. I think they went in Jimmy's guitars after LZ made it big. beaubrummels noted that above. It does not imply they are poor pickups.
 
I'll go rouge with my thoughts on the Green Magics. You know how to wind '59s. All that magic was a flipped wiring or mag '59, so how hard can it be? Flame off!
 
I'll share my unrequested POV of already old fart, in the name of relativism.

Mark Abbott said:
The reply I agree with most is that SD is being careful with his wording. I’m not here to demonise Seymour, I have had my share of SD pickups. Though I think I’d scream if I read someone talking about another set of Duane Allman Hot Atlanta or Fillmore pickups, knowing no one has actually measured them. I admire Jon at Throbak pickups for his efforts to educate his clientele, I don’t think anyone has gone to that much effort.
Click to expand...

As much as I respect Jon Gundry, I don't think he educates customers for free. IMHO, his educational videos are indirectly a way to prove how much care he puts in his pickups and to sensibilize to details that people would have neglected... which potentially justifies the high price of his products.

But many other makers don't put less care in their pickups and many of them have lower prices than Throbak's.

For example, Seymour has one of the Leesona 102 Gibson Winders but Duncan's wound on it are not as pricey as the Throbak PU's wound on the same machine.

I get the impression that in the early days Seymour was largely over winding pickups for more output (which is fair enough as there was/is demand for it.) so I assumed the Hendrix pickups would be following this philosophy.
Click to expand...

Yes, there was a demand for it. Aftermarket pickups appeared in the late 70's / early 80's, when high gain amps didn't exist yet but while we were in the Fender CBS and Gibson Norlin era. To limit the costs, these brands mounted low resistance transducers, creating a market for more vintage and/or more high gain recipes (like the SSL1, SH1 or SH4, all meatier than CBS single coils or Norlin T-Tops) . I clearly remember my first Duncan flyer illustrating that +/- 40 years ago - and how we compared his pickups to those from DiMarzio or "Bill Lawrence", who did the same than Seymour for the same reasons.

I’m not disparaging the Hendrix pickup set, I suspect they would have been better than the set that he originally put in Hendrix’s guitar, as he has had so much more experience since then. I don’t mention the JB humbucker as Jeff Beck does have history with Seymour.

The Page pickups are the ones I question, are they copies of pickups in Page’s vintage Les Paul’s (whole lotta Humbucker would suggest so), or the pickups Page likes in recent times?

SD Green set sounds good, but I don’t think it’s as authentic as the Bare Knuckle set (I thought they had some access to the guitar) or the Monty’s guitar set where he has had access to the guitar, and incorporates the formvar wire in the neck pickup and the pickup is wax dipped etc.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, most winders sell sets "inspired by" famous artists. For example, there's boatloads of "Green sets", creating the OOP sound in various ways: Some include a reverse wound neck PU, some are sold with a simply flipped mag in it...

Few of these artisans have actually worked on Greeny. And even though Jim Wagner, at WCR, has measured the specs of this axe @ the Dallas Guitar Show, can we claim his set is more authentic than others, while he winds humbuckers by hands and while P.A.F.'s were machine wound? This objection stands for Bare Knuckle as well, albeit all the winders that I mention offer really fine PU's, IMHO.

Weither or not he has met famous people / instruments in person, any winder only offers HIS take on guitar pickups and that's the interest of these products IMHO : each artisan is like a master cooker with his own idea of each "recipe" and this diversity is a bonus for our musical life...

Last but not least: for any brand, advertising is advertising and I humbly think most customers do spontaneously relativize it. :-)

I don't plan to argue about these statements: life is too short. At least I'll have devoted my morning coffee time to a message that I hope potentially constructive... ;-)

I wish you all a nice day and much pleasure with music, whatever pickups you use.
 
Last edited:
Aceman said:
Yeah - I'd be pretty comfortable that anything Seymour said is gospell about who & how it was done.
Click to expand...

I seen the pictures of Seymour Duncan giving his pickups to Jimi and they're not a photo shopped pictures.

Jimi probably had Abigail Ybarra back engineer Seymour's pickups back at the winding both at the Fender plant.
 
Let's not forget that back then, the idea of replacement pickups was really unheard of. That anyone currently working today actually talked to those legends is pretty special.
 
I suspect the - but do not know - that the Whole Lotta are Seymours current take on what Page would have been using or wanted. I mean, it is like 50 years later....
 
A reply to Freefrog. I think my opinion has been formulated by being somewhat discerning about what is presented online, and while I can’t say my opinions are absolute, I am quite comfortable they can stand up to criticism.

I don’t own any Throbak pickups and yet I know about the details that a vintage PAF pickup has due to Jon Gundry’s research, so this knowledge has only cost me time. Personally, I’m grateful he is prepared to share information.

Getting on topic, you mentioned that Seymour had a Leesona 102, and perhaps imply SD offers the same product at a cheaper price. I disagree with this one several levels. I suppose the most obvious one is Throbak is a niche product and offer many versions of the PAF while I’m only aware of the Antiquity humbucker as being and apples to apples comparison.

However, Jon states: “PE magnet wire is wound on the slug coils with the original Gibson Slug 101 winder and screw coils wound on the Leesona 102. The result is a complex tone with articulate clarity of the best PAF pickups of the 50's.”

The slug 101 winder, may or may not make a tonal difference, but Jon is using the original equipment. Personally, I would unreserved buy his product if accuracy was a chief motivator. The SD Antiquity humbucker has been given a big rap in the past, though there are a lot of new products in this niche area now.

As for CBS Fender pickups and Norlin T tops, these pickups aren’t without their charm. This is apparent by the number of companies offering grey bottom Fender single coils. I recently played a set of original T top again only two weeks ago against the PAF style pickups in my Les Paul. They were quite different, and both with their own charm. Output wise, they were very similar, the T tops measured 7.5K and PAF is 7K to 8.5K.

The PAF output is nothing like the old Dimarzio Super Distortion pickup (made in 1972) with a ceramic magnet and a 13K coil.

The old Dimarzio FS-1 is a high output Strat pickup is 14K with Alnico 5 magnets (again made in 1972), the output is much greater than either CBS or vintage Fender pickups.

While I’d agree this doesn’t establish a trend of those times, there wasn’t much in the way of pickup builders then and these models are still available so they must have been popular for a very long time. I tend to believe Seymour Duncan was on a similar path at the time as there was demand for such a product.

I think there is a big difference between artist inspired and the actual real item. The inspired pickup just has too many variables to be considered as being in the ballpark of the real thing. The Jim Wagner example of an association isn’t a good one as he wasn’t allowed to disassemble the guitar. He can measure resistance with a multimeter, though I can’t see him there with a gauss meter and an LCR meter too, and if he did the controls could interact with the pickups, not an ideal situation. How could you see if one or both coils of the neck pickup was rewound with formvar wire as suggested. What are the different resistance values between the coils?

As for Bare Knuckle pickups, I believe there is an association with Gary Moore who was the former owner of the PG Les Paul and he used the Bare Knuckles set in his other Les Paul’s.

https://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/news/article/gary-moore-bare-knuckle-feature-guitarist#

Regards

Mark

​​​​​​​
 
Mark Abbott said:
A reply to Freefrog. I think my opinion has been formulated by being somewhat discerning about what is presented online, and while I can’t say my opinions are absolute, I am quite comfortable they can stand up to criticism.

I don’t own any Throbak pickups and yet I know about the details that a vintage PAF pickup has due to Jon Gundry’s research, so this knowledge has only cost me time. Personally, I’m grateful he is prepared to share information.

Getting on topic, you mentioned that Seymour had a Leesona 102, and perhaps imply SD offers the same product at a cheaper price. I disagree with this one several levels. I suppose the most obvious one is Throbak is a niche product and offer many versions of the PAF while I’m only aware of the Antiquity humbucker as being and apples to apples comparison.

However, Jon states: “PE magnet wire is wound on the slug coils with the original Gibson Slug 101 winder and screw coils wound on the Leesona 102. The result is a complex tone with articulate clarity of the best PAF pickups of the 50's.”

The slug 101 winder, may or may not make a tonal difference, but Jon is using the original equipment. Personally, I would unreserved buy his product if accuracy was a chief motivator. The SD Antiquity humbucker has been given a big rap in the past, though there are a lot of new products in this niche area now.

As for CBS Fender pickups and Norlin T tops, these pickups aren’t without their charm. This is apparent by the number of companies offering grey bottom Fender single coils. I recently played a set of original T top again only two weeks ago against the PAF style pickups in my Les Paul. They were quite different, and both with their own charm. Output wise, they were very similar, the T tops measured 7.5K and PAF is 7K to 8.5K.

The PAF output is nothing like the old Dimarzio Super Distortion pickup (made in 1972) with a ceramic magnet and a 13K coil.

The old Dimarzio FS-1 is a high output Strat pickup is 14K with Alnico 5 magnets (again made in 1972), the output is much greater than either CBS or vintage Fender pickups.

While I’d agree this doesn’t establish a trend of those times, there wasn’t much in the way of pickup builders then and these models are still available so they must have been popular for a very long time. I tend to believe Seymour Duncan was on a similar path at the time as there was demand for such a product.

I think there is a big difference between artist inspired and the actual real item. The inspired pickup just has too many variables to be considered as being in the ballpark of the real thing. The Jim Wagner example of an association isn’t a good one as he wasn’t allowed to disassemble the guitar. He can measure resistance with a multimeter, though I can’t see him there with a gauss meter and an LCR meter too, and if he did the controls could interact with the pickups, not an ideal situation. How could you see if one or both coils of the neck pickup was rewound with formvar wire as suggested. What are the different resistance values between the coils?

As for Bare Knuckle pickups, I believe there is an association with Gary Moore who was the former owner of the PG Les Paul and he used the Bare Knuckles set in his other Les Paul’s.

https://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk...ure-guitarist#

Regards

Mark

​​​​​​​
Click to expand...

I've said this morning that I wouldn't argue, so this answer is only meant to precise my thoughts.


1-I don't think to have criticized your opinion by expressing my own perspective.

2-My remark about the Leesona 102 was not implying that Antiquities = the same sound than Throbak but cheaper. In my mind Jon and Seymour each make a personal use of the same machine : pickups like the DT102 and SH1 sound according to the choices of their respective designers, exactly like the same meal done by two master cookers would have different flavours, even done with the same ingredients and in the same kitchen.

IMO.


3-Agreed about the charm of CBS SC's and Norlin era T-Tops, since I played them back in the days... For the record, one of my favourite HB's of these last 40 years is a patent sticker T-Top in a vintage SG that I've personally repaired. Many people rediscover these oldies now that high gain amps exist and that technology allows a better signal to noise ratio...
Now and to be clear, I've NOT said nor even suggested that vintage pickups had the same output than newer high gain ones. I've said that Fender CBS and Gibson Norlin had mounted weak pickups feeding the regret of stronger vintage recipes + opening a market for higher gain transducers... IOW, SH1 and SH4 or SSL1 and SSL5 would be born from the same relative weakness of stock Fender / Gibson PU's and it's easy to check by reading INDUCTANCE, which is much more reliable than DCR when it comes to output: Fender L series PU's (and SSL1's) go up to 2.6H. CBS PU's measure a tiny 2H or less. P.A.F. 's read 4H to 5H while T-Tops are typically in the 3.5H to 3.8H range, with thinner smaller magnets less gaussed than RC mags in P.A.F.s... So, while vintage PU's are not high gain, they are still beefier than CBS / Norlin transducers. That's what I was trying to say, no more, no less.

Side note: a DiMarzio Super Dist has the same inductance than... a typical P90 and the same basic architecture than... a Filter'Tron(!): cumbersome symmetrical magnetic poles, double thick mag under the coils, sonic use of Foucault currents... What Larry DiMarzio dues to Ray Butts is still to recognize here if we want to think twice about timelines.

4-Anyway, I tend to attribute the surviving success of "old" hi gain pickups to the influence of people who have used it when there were no high gain devices, no noise gates and so on. Personally, at least, if I still use a DiMarzio Super Dist, it's partly by nostalgia, partly because it's the right tool for some covers that I play... but to be honest, I find it to be a one trick pony much more than vintage PU's of any era. This character is more present to me than the (not so clear) place of DiMarzio products in a timeline.

5-Yes, Gary Moore (a hero of mine) did use the BK pickups as he had used many pickups during his carreer... Ironically, I even think to remember him promoting some "hot" aftermarket HB's that he had mounted once in Greeny and that he prefered to the original pickups (!)...

All that being said, I still think that any hand wound BK sounds like a hand wound BK because it has been designed and built by Tim Mills. That was my point and in my humble mind, it relativizes timelines (whatever is their interest that I don't deny).

Regarding the measurements done by Jim Wagner, I could do long comments about the precious infos that a pickup can give, even if treated like a black box, as long as the right lab gear and methodology are used... But that's another story. The kind of story that even Jon Gundry wouldn't share to conqueer the esteem of potential customers... ;-))
 
Last edited:
Antiquities are definitely not the only PAF type pickups made by Duncan.
  • Seth Lover set, made to the patent specs, rather than the variations from the original production
  • 59 set
  • Alnico 2 Pro set
  • Pearly Gates set
  • The Queenbucker set
  • Greenie set
  • Eric Steckel 'Candy' set
  • Bonnamassa Magellan
  • Bonnamassa Skinnerburst
  • Bonnamassa Amos
(Someone can correct me if any of these depart too far from the PAF recipe in terms of wire gauge or wire type, etc.)

While Duncan may or may not have a particular vintage piece of winding gear (like the specific Gibson slug winder - I don't know if they do or they don't), what I do know about Duncan's process from employee descriptions and their own blog and video information is that Seymour and MJ have unwound and analyzed original samples of numerous pickups they make models of and have kept rigorous notes about turns per layer, wind patterns, etc. in addition to conducting comprehensive testing on the affects of magnets and wire tension during winding and how the wire is packed on the bobbin, etc. So if they've had a vintage pickup in hand and have analyzed it, personally, I would trust they know exactly how to recreate it, even if they had to use different equipment to make it happen.
 
maug2122 said:
Jimi probably had Abigail Ybarra back engineer Seymour's pickups back at the winding both at the Fender plant.
Click to expand...

Somewhere around here, I have an old Fender catalog that shows Seymour and Abigail collaborating. Maybe they just shared notes with each other.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Chris EmCee
How are you deleting/erasing the logos?
Replies
8
Views
112
ehdwuld
ehdwuld
P
Does Seymour Duncan make something like the Monty Guitars Full Monty (GT500) pickups?
Replies
1
Views
42
freefrog
freefrog
C
Blind Pickup Swap
Replies
2
Views
67
Artie
Artie
ToneFiddler
Seymour Duncan endorsements
Replies
2
Views
88
ToneFiddler
ToneFiddler
Mincer
Cracks in bobbins?
2
Replies
24
Views
164
Artie
Artie
Back
Top