Timelines on celebrity pickups

[Mincer]

I think that if a set actually had collaboration from the artist, the copy clearly states that. Without that express description, I would think the rest are 'inspired by'.

 

[Mark Abbott]

I've said this morning that I wouldn't argue, so this answer is only meant to precise my thoughts.

1-I don't think to have criticized your opinion by expressing my own perspective.

I’m okay about being proven wrong by someone, if I’m wrong/incorrect/ill informed and am corrected then I can make better decisions.

”Seymour has one of the Leesona 102 Gibson Winders but Duncan's wound on it are not as pricey as the Throbak PU's wound on the same machine.”

That comment did come across as possibly derogatory, but I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt. I hope it’s come across that way.

Jim Wagner, at WCR, has measured the specs of this axe @ the Dallas Guitar Show, can we claim his set is more authentic than others, while he winds humbuckers by hands and while P.A.F.'s were machine wound? This objection stands for Bare Knuckle as well, albeit all the winders that I mention offer really fine PU's, IMHO.

The measurements have to capture real information that allow an accurate reproduction to be made, that is the real unknown. I don’t doubt Jim Wagner makes great pickups, I just don’t know if it stands up to a side by side comparison with the real thing, they might sound better, but of course that’s not the same.

I could do long comments about the precious infos that a pickup can give, even if treated like a black box, as long as the right lab gear and methodology are used.

I’m game if you are.

Regards

Mark Abbott

 

[freefrog]

A last (?) answer in the name of clarity...

That comment did come across as possibly derogatory, but I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt. I hope it’s come across that way.

My comment was not derogatory for Throbak... A decade ago, an old friend of mine, local luthier-winder (now retired but for whom I still work), was crying on the phone with me. Reason: some troll on the Web had posted destructive sentences about his products. So I'd certainly not do the same against another artisan.

Jon Gundry drives a small company, have bought expensive tools and source specific materials. He HAS to sell his products at boutique prices. He has apparently decided to justify these prices by sharing information on the Net. The bet seems to be that educated musicians will accept to put more money on pickups because they understand their cost.

It's a totally respectable attitude and I find Throbak vids really well done.

Duncan is obviously a bigger company working on different principles when it comes to costs, shared informations and... advertising: there's logically a capitalization on what Seymour did for famous artists and not as much volontee to educate customers, potentially because many of them don't care about science behind pickups. it was my case when I was 18, after all: I did see Duncan or DiMarzio or Lawrence as famous names, making me sure that their pickups were the ones to have.

But it doesn't deny the presence of work and knowledge behind the curtain @ Duncan corp. At least as much work and knowledge than what Jon has at disposal, albeit used differently. That was my peaceful point.

The measurements have to capture real information that allow an accurate reproduction to be made, that is the real unknown. I don’t doubt Jim Wagner makes great pickups, I just don’t know if it stands up to a side by side comparison with the real thing, they might sound better, but of course that’s not the same.

Jim Wagner winds fine pickups like Tim Mills and hundreds of other pickups makers. Each has his personality, impacting the design of pickups, sourcing of materials, building process etc. The result is that many brands have a recognizable "voice" or at least a defined sonic footprint.

Hence my tendency to take the idea of "accurate reproduction" with a (respectful) grain of salt : a P.A.F. clone made with contemporary materials by someone who wasn't "there" @ the Gibson plant always risks to sound unlike "the real thing", even if/when it has been made with the same tools and should be strictly identical in theory.

Paradoxically, it might even be necessary to adapt the original pickups recipes to contemporary materials in order to obtain the same sound than yesteryears... And I write this after having compared (more than once) vintage transducers to modern clones with lab gear. ;-)

I’m game if you are.

To keep it short and the most objective possible, I'll reply with an external example.

I've still here a Line6 Variax 500, bought brand new in 2003.

When Line6 engineers tested vintage instruments to capture their voice, they didn't dissect these guitars. Lab measurements were done with guitars as they were, if memory serves me. Each instrument was treated as a black box.

And Line 6 did a pretty good job: they cracked the code of each vintage instrument without opening it - even if the sonic results are limited by the hardware used to build Variax guitars. Once again, the "voice" inherent to the product shapes the final tone...


FWIW: another answer from before my morning coffee, a Sunday morning. The house is still asleep so I could ramble a bit... <:0x

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

IIRC Peter Green's Les Paul was a 59 with original PAFs. He was messing about with the wiring and although he put the thing back together as it was generally, he accidentally flipped the neck magnet, resulting in an out of phase neck pickup. I don't recall there being any push-pulls or anything. Any wax loss was purely accidental, I expect, and I also expect he never bothered getting them re-potted.

So...

If you're after the "Peter Green" sound, get an original set of PAFs or modern copies as close to the originals as possible, flip the magnet in the neck, and that's as close as you'll get guitar wise.

That just leaves you to figure out the amp, pedals (none I believe), cables, microphone, mixind desk settings, tape recorder, tape...

Finally you'll need Greenie's fingers.

 

[Mincer]

There will always be players with something in their head (and money willing to pay for) exactly what their heroes use or used. Other players grab the basic formula and that's good enough. I've never chased a sound so thoroughly, so I don't sweat what I think is the small stuff. There is room for all types out there (and shades of grey in between). I think companies have to strike a balance if they want to make more than one pickup at a time here and there, much less sell to a worldwide audience.

 

[beaubrummels]

IIRC Peter Green's Les Paul was a 59 with original PAFs. He was messing about with the wiring and although he put the thing back together as it was generally, he accidentally flipped the neck magnet, resulting in an out of phase neck pickup. I don't recall there being any push-pulls or anything. Any wax loss was purely accidental, I expect, and I also expect he never bothered getting them re-potted.

FWIW (I honestly don't know what is the actual correct story, but..) an alternate version I had read was that his neck pickup went out, or at least one coil failed, and he took it to a tech who rewound the failed coil(s) and put it back together with the magnet flipped. But the sound was useful so PG kept it that way. I believe the correct recipe for a Greenie set would be one of the neck coils unbalanced and possibly with different wire? But original PAFs wouldn't have been potted in the first place. I don't think that became a thing until higher gain amps were in frequent use. Can't remember the year that started.

 

[ToneFiddler]

FWIW (I honestly don't know what is the actual correct story, but..) an alternate version I had read was that his neck pickup went out, or at least one coil failed, and he took it to a tech who rewound the failed coil(s) and put it back together with the magnet flipped. But the sound was useful so PG kept it that way. I believe the correct recipe for a Greenie set would be one of the neck coils unbalanced and possibly with different wire? But original PAFs wouldn't have been potted in the first place. I don't think that became a thing until higher gain amps were in frequent use. Can't remember the year that started.

i read that somewhere that the neck was rewound with formvar wire (not enamel), don’t know if that is true. when i hear peter green i think old farts sound but he has a really nice expressive touch!
how much of the sound of those old recordings is the pickup anyway?

that jimi hendrix story is really stupid. why would you make a messed up stagger for a left hand player???

i have a high voltage set and i think for an authentic AC/DC sound you’re better of with a t-top but man those things feel great! i don’t think i will ever sell them.
the story on those is also very believable.

but i agree, duncan chooses their wording carefully so they don’t make false claims.
not a lot of those sets are actually on any recording