To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

[tone?]

Why cant someone build an amp that has a built in Dummy load+SS power amp so that they can play at any volume and get a cranked tube power amp saturation?

would this be too expensive?

I think that amp builders spend too much time trying to make their pre-amps more comlex so that the overall amp sounds good at any volume. But why dont they just make a simple straightforward lets say 'Marshall' type amp that can be turned fully up and hear it at whisper levels?

Of course the speaker movment will be lost, but you would still get that saturated tone at any level.
Doesnt this beat an attenuator?

Is it too difficult to mix the compnents so that in the end the sound is perfect?

Couldnt someone do this in smaller wattage amps and add lets say a cab simulator as well to make the sound larger?

It would use the Van Halen approach but you could use variations of the tone of course


any Ideas?

 

[shredaholic]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

interesting - Ive often wondered that

 

[aleclee]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

It's been done. Guytron did it back in the 90's with an attenuated EL84 power section feeding a big bottle power section. It's expensive and darn heavy. The power supply needs to be a lot bigger because of the additional power amp and you have two power sections which means more tubes and dual output transformers. My back hurts just thinking about it.

Going with a SS power amp probably isn't going to give the same feel since the output transformer isn't going to interact with the speakers and dummy loads just aren't the same. Another problem with SS is that most folks aren't gonna pay a premium for what's essentially a high-end hybrid amp.

 

[tone?]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

aleclee

Going with a SS power amp probably isn't going to give the same feel since the output transformer isn't going to interact with the speakers and dummy loads just aren't the same. Another problem with SS is that most folks aren't gonna pay a premium for what's essentially a high-end hybrid amp.

a SS amp woould be used after the power tube/preamp to boost the signal. Like ed's rig. that is not considered hibrid.

yes it would be heavy, but maybe you could split the two and carry them sepearatly.
like have the regular amp in one like a regular Marshall head and then have the dummy load SS amp in another pack. you could also sell them seperatly, but they would be voiced for each other.
hows that??

 

[Rich_S]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

It's expensive and heavy, and you can do the same thing with an attenuator and an outboard power amp. A Weber MASS will load an amp correctly by itself, no speaker required, and then drive any power amp from a 100-watt rack rig down to your bedroom boom box. If you have a gig, take the Marshall, leave the MASS and the boom box at home. (Or take the MASS along, too - the soundman will love you.)

Then there's the Garnet Herzog - the mystery device behind Randy Bachman's original American Woman tone. This was designed and marketed more as a distortion/effects device intended to use in front of another guitar amp, but the concept is similar to what you're talking about. The Herzog was basically a hot-rodded Champ with its output stage loaded down to drive another amp.

Garnet Herzog Photos

Obviously, this whole idea works better with small amps. Cranking up an expensive, heavy 100-watt Marshall with four pricey EL34s in it, only to attentuate the output down to nothing and blow it away as heat is kinda silly. There's been a lot of interest in the "zog" idea over at AX84. Since most of the DIY amps there a realitively low-power, it's easy to add in a homemade attenuator. Guys there are "zogging " their amps all the time.

In fact, my next build is going to be a low-power 18-watter (1.8 Watter?) and my impedance selector switch is going to have 4 positions: 4-8-16-Zog. :13:

 

[Pink Unicorn Horsey]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Doesn't THD make amps with built-in Hot Plates?

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

This is precisely why I have a PODxt. I agree that using your amp as a furnace is ridiculous.

It comes back to the question I always ask: how many of the people who buy 100W guitar amps actually NEED 100W of power???

 

[aleclee]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

a SS amp woould be used after the power tube/preamp to boost the signal. Like ed's rig. that is not considered hibrid.

First, when you have a SS power amp and a tube preamp, it's a hybrid amp. I believe the accepted definition of hybrid amp is an amp with a tube preamp and SS power amp (or vice versa). In this case, the "real" power amp is SS, since the tube power section is not actually driving anything. Besides, I said it's "essentially a hybrid amp".

Secondly, Ed didn't use an SS power amp, at least in the old days. He ran the output from the dummy load into another Marshall.

Doesn't THD make amps with built-in Hot Plates?

Yeah, the THD Univalve and Bivalve have a built-in attenuator/dummy load.

 

[Xeromus]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Thd

 

[Kommerzbassist]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

how many of the people who buy 100W guitar amps actually NEED 100W of power???

I need one for my bedroom. Seriously, I think people buy those amps cause they like the sound of it rather than needing the volume...

 

[ErikH]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Didn't the Ampeg Lee Jackson head have an attenuator built in to it?

 

[Rich_S]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

I need one for my bedroom.

Somewhere, I have some photos of my bedroom circa 1979 or so. Hiwatt DR103 head and an Altair Power Atteuator atop a pair of Ampeg V4 cabinets, sitting behind two Les Pauls and a Pat Travers-ized 2-HB Melody Maker. Ah, foolish youth.

I gotta find those old pics... they'll be good for a laugh.

 

[ErikH]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Somewhere, I have some photos of my bedroom circa 1979 or so. Hiwatt DR103 head and an Altair Power Atteuator atop a pair of Ampeg V4 cabinets, sitting behind two Les Pauls and a Pat Travers-ized 2-HB Melody Maker. Ah, foolish youth.

I gotta find those old pics... they'll be good for a laugh.

But you were rockin', man. It's fun coming across old pics like that. Makes you wonder what ever happened to some of that stuff after you've gotten rid of it.

 

[Quencho092]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

It comes back to the question I always ask: how many of the people who buy 100W guitar amps actually NEED 100W of power???

In order to have an amp that is twice as loud, you need 10x the wattage.

So in essence, why would somebody prefer a 100 watt head over a 50 watt amp if it's about .2 times louder? You'd barely hear the difference between the two amps if each was set at around 4 at the volume. The answer is breakup.

If you want cleans at very high volume you need something like a Fender Twin. If you yearn for moderate power tube breakup and lots of speaker breakup at high volumes, a 1959 SLP will do the job.

Not everybody is after early tube breakup, some people need the cleans, so they need more power to clean it up.

 

[mnbaseball91]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

That's the exact principal that the Vox Valvetronix amps are based on (ok, sort of). Solid State preamp and poweramp with a miniature 12ax7 powered poweramp in between.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/power

In order to have an amp that is twice as loud, you need 10x the wattage.

So in essence, why would somebody prefer a 100 watt head over a 50 watt amp if it's about .2 times louder? You'd barely hear the difference between the two amps if each was set at around 4 at the volume. The answer is breakup.

If you want cleans at very high volume you need something like a Fender Twin. If you yearn for moderate power tube breakup and lots of speaker breakup at high volumes, a 1959 SLP will do the job.

Not everybody is after early tube breakup, some people need the cleans, so they need more power to clean it up.

A bit oversimplified (volume has as much to do with speaker size and configuration as it does amp power), but I agree with what you have said. It still doesn't answer my question though.

I am willing to bet that 95% of the people who have 100W half stacks don't need that kind of power. Hell, I'd bet 75% of the people with 50W amps don't need THAT much power. A small (30W or less) amp is plenty for rehearsing and small gigs, and any large venue will want to mic your amp anyway ... so where is this power requirement coming from???

 

[aleclee]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/power

so where is this power requirement coming from???

So I can show that my package is bigger than your package.

I think that SS amps do a lot to skew expectations, too. Since I'd be reluctant to take a 50W SS amp to a gig, a 50W tube amp must be inadequate, too.

Not.

Where a SS amp is built to avoid ever reaching peak power ('cause it sounds like poo and tends to damage speakers), many tube amps are capable of providing well in excess of 100% of rated power and it still sounds good--some would even say better.

 

[tone?]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

ok im back,

here is a quote from http://www.amptone.com/eddievanhalenrig.htm

The setup is a 100 watt Marshall plexi with Sylvania 6CA7's. The head is plugged into a Variac to lower the mains voltage to about 90 VAC or whatever he's in the mood for. This browns the sound slightly and helps lenghten the tubes' life. The speaker out is set at 8 ohms. The dummy load resistor is adjusted to about 20 ohms. Then the load resistor is tapped at center and sent to a box with a potentiometer in it and and output jack. The output jack is a line-level low-impedance source and will not muddy up the tone anywhere. The pot. is adjusted for whatever drive level you want. It then goes into the MXR Phase 90, MXR flanger, and Echoplex-EP3. This then goes to the power amp, usually a low-powered one, 100-200 watts. This is to prevent ****ing up good real low-power vintage speakers, as opposed to today's higher-powered **** Celestions. The final power amp he used was by H&H and he paralleled 4 cabinets down to 4 ohms to connect it to power amp. This IS the setup for his early days.

i also knew this before i read this article. Ed used a Marshall plexi ran it into a dummy load and then into an H&H SS amp then into his cabs.

i agree that it is hard on your amp to run it at these levels all the time but you didnt have to have it on 10 as he did.

if i had a setup like this i would have the amp up as loud as to start getting some power tube and OT saturation plus sustain. thats all.

Attenuators for the rest of the people that asked about dont work the same way. they color your sound where this doesnt. if om not mistaken.

 

[Quencho092]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

You're right, ratherdashing!

But I was presuming that PA's weren't a factor. Some people just like to get ALL of their volume from an amp at the shows I've been to.

I guess it's a budget thing-instead of getting a 1000+ watt PA and a pair of high power rated full range speaker cabs through a decent mixer, people just prefer to have the singer run the mic to a preamp>~500 watt PA>one full range cab, and everybody plays through their own amp. It's more cost effective for the band that only plays private outdoor shows, or un-mic'ed gigs, but I've opted for choice A right now.

 

[Scott_F]

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Re: To all amp Builders.Why hasnt anyone built an amp with a built in Dummyload/poweramp?

Weber Mass... and you can use it on all your amps. Stevo had one at the forum jam and his JCM800 sounded killer at ALL levels.