Tone Control Mods?!??

[Zerberus]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

Are you postive you have done that EXACT mod or maybe was it something similar to it because i spent hours thinking of that!!

CAn´t say for 100% certain, Last time I did it was about 5 years ago. I may have used different cap and resistor values but it was wired the way yours appears to be and the function was the same. I´ve got the drawing flying around somewhere in a crate I think... :beerchug:

I used to love thinking up funky wiring Ideas in high school....

I think what bothered me the most about this Mod was that I needed a TBX pot for it to work properly, it didn´t fare so well with "normal" dualie pots ... A bit annoying when the customer is bringing you a Les Paul :smack:

 

[newjersey236]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

whats the difference if the resistor values are changed?

Im not entirely sure what would happen if the 4.7k resistor soldered to the .022 cap was switched to a higher or lower value but i wouldn't personally adjust the value of that resistor, but who knows, maybe you can find a better value that sounds better tonally. But to play it safe i would stick to that resistor value. But i do know that the 220k resistor plays a big part to this mod working SMOOTHLY. See, a TBX pot is usually a 250k pot and 1meg pot working together, so when you roll your tone control up to 5 there is a little detent where the pot goes "open" circuit and THEN switches to the 1meg side of the pot, the 220k resistor makes up for the "open" circuit detent at 5 and puts a 220k load on the transistion from pot to pot so instead of it jumping from a 250k pot to a 1meg pot extremely abruptly once you reach 5 on the knob and making a sharp tone shift from 250k to 1meg it makes it so it switches pots with a smooth transistion from 5-10 so the bass gradually gets cut instead of just cutting out alot at 5. And actually the closer to 250k you can get the resistor the better. Hope this helps ya

 

[newjersey236]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

CAn´t say for 100% certain, Last time I did it was about 5 years ago. I may have used different cap and resistor values but it was wired the way yours appears to be and the function was the same. I´ve got the drawing flying around somewhere in a crate I think... :beerchug:

I used to love thinking up funky wiring Ideas in high school....

I think what bothered me the most about this Mod was that I needed a TBX pot for it to work properly, it didn´t fare so well with "normal" dualie pots ... A bit annoying when the customer is bringing you a Les Paul :smack:

Ohhh ok, then you probably DID do this same type of mod with just different value capacitors and resistors. And also that must have blown to had to install this mod with a les paul setup!! Im a strat guy personally and I never really was fond of les pauls, i dont DISLIKE them or anything and i mean i totally DO respect their musically qualities but i just enjoy the sound of single coils better, especially with proper shieding so the guitar is noiseless. But if i did however have to install this mod on both Les Paul tones it would be probably be the most kick ass Les Paul EVER if you changed the cap values for the neck and bridge tone controls to fit your preferences for treble and bass for both humbuckers. Also, if you put a treble bleed on each volume AND properly shielded the guitar you would have an AMAZING AMAZING AMAZING Les Paul for sure that would put others Les Pauls to shame!

 

[newjersey236]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

Finally wanted to post images of how this TBX mod looks on my guitar for a visual for some people, also note the shielding on pickguard done by me as well =) ...Also, orange drop caps are frickin HUGE and suck to fit into a guitar cavity, if you decide to use them definately find space conserving ways to fit them, notice how my .1 cap is vertical in an attempt to try to save space.

 

[vegetablejoe]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

I understand little about wiring variations, but try them out to look for better ways of tone-shaping... with that said would you tell me where the wiring connects to after the 4.7K resistor? I don't understand the symbol.

 

[cayle_6]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

I understand little about wiring variations, but try them out to look for better ways of tone-shaping... with that said would you tell me where the wiring connects to after the 4.7K resistor? I don't understand the symbol.

if i am correct, it goes to the ground.

 

[newjersey236]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

I understand little about wiring variations, but try them out to look for better ways of tone-shaping... with that said would you tell me where the wiring connects to after the 4.7K resistor? I don't understand the symbol.

Oh sorry about that, the other end of the 4.7k resistor connects to ground.

 

[newjersey236]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

After looking back at this thread i just wanted to ask you guys out there, if you did happen to attempt this mod could you please post how you felt about it. Or even if you didn't attempt this mod could you post a mod you have done/attempted on your tone control.

 

[Koreth]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

So, what is this TBX pot? a google search pulls up listings about a special Fender part designed to cut both bass and treble, but looking at it, it seems to me that this is just a dual ganged pot with with a center detent and some caps and resistors soldered across the terminals. What makes a TBX pot special? Are the two pots connected internally somehow without the compoents connected across their terminals? Do the two different sections have some special taper?

 

[MojoMonster]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

So, what is this TBX pot? a google search pulls up listings about a special Fender part designed to cut both bass and treble, but looking at it, it seems to me that this is just a dual ganged pot with with a center detent and some caps and resistors soldered across the terminals.

Yep, you got it.

What makes a TBX pot special?

This was first conceived 60 years ago when simple things like this were a big deal.

Are the two pots connected internally somehow without the compoents connected across their terminals? Do the two different sections have some special taper?

You can probably find things like that, but to my knowledge this isn't true of the standard TBX pot.

MM

 

[MojoMonster]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

After looking back at this thread i just wanted to ask you guys out there, if you did happen to attempt this mod could you please post how you felt about it. Or even if you didn't attempt this mod could you post a mod you have done/attempted on your tone control.

Just wanted to post a reminder that to save room, as you've discovered, try to find caps in the smallest voltage possible... the higher the voltage the larger the cap.
Also, you can run longer leads from the cap to the pot and locate the cap wherever it'll fit better... just remember to cover the leads with tubing.

MM

 

[ZiggyZipgun]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

I've had this mod in my strat for a couple years, thanks to the info posted over at BlueGuitar.org. At the time I went all out, used a Hovland MusiCap and two ring terminals for star ground, and also installed one of Deaf Eddie's Chromacaster rotary switches for 16 different pickup combinations, plus my SSL-5T bridge pickup with a coil tap for vintage output.

Now that I've had it like this for quite a while, I'm thinking of going over it again: the Chromacaster will be in there no matter what pickups or other controls I end up using, but I'm going to try BlueGuitar's other TBX mod, which is to wire the 1Meg half as a G&L bass cut control - and if that isn't really useful, I'll probably modify a Dimarzio Custom Taper 250k pot to make it a "no load" and use a Mojo Dijon cap. Also, the coil tap on my SSL-5T has see little or no use, so the push-pull volume pot will also be replaced with a Dimarzio Custom Taper pot - which I have in another guitar, with Mojo Dijons, and really like. So yeah...not only is it very unlikely that anyone can receive a patent for a simple circuit (maybe 99.5% of effects pedals are not patented) but this has been on that site since 2003. Sort of like my 3-way coil split toggle that uses a 100k trim-pot to give you a preset "spin-a-split" setting (or two trim-pots for individual tweaking of each pickup's "in-between" sound).

 

[newjersey236]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

What makes a TBX pot special?

I don't honestly think a stock Fender wired TBX pot by itself is anything to talk about, it personally sucks in my opinon, however, a modded TBX pot is a thing of beaty. I love just simply having the ability to be able to roll off the highs as well as the lows, another upside is that if you use single coils with a TBX control they can go "No-Load" when the pot is fully turned which creates a more treble-y and spanky type sound (tele-ish) that normal single coil guitars don't have. Also, if the greasebucket circuit is installed to a TBX pot as well, the lows can be very very low without losing an abundance of highs or going too muddy or excessively boomy. Its just a very great tone control to mod, very usable!

 

[newjersey236]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

I've had this mod in my strat for a couple years, thanks to the info posted over at BlueGuitar.org. At the time I went all out, used a Hovland MusiCap and two ring terminals for star ground, and also installed one of Deaf Eddie's Chromacaster rotary switches for 16 different pickup combinations, plus my SSL-5T bridge pickup with a coil tap for vintage output.

Are you positive you had this exact mod in your guitar? Because the TBX mod on BlueGuitar.org is in fact where I based some of this mod off of, but even though both mods follow the same principle with a 220k resistor wired between both pots and a treble cut and bass cut cap, mine sounds slightly different when turned counter clockwise because of the greasebucket circuit in play. I mean both mods sound almost identical when turned all the way clockwise, but when turned all the way off i feel like the mod posted in this thread sounds more so like a good jazz tone with low amounts of mids and treble still in the mix due to the greasebucket tone citcuit as opposed to a very bassy, mid & treble lacking tone with just a cap by itself.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

Wait a minute ...

You've put a high pass (the unfortunately named "Greasebucket") onto a low pass tone control.

You've essentially created a passive mid control. No matter what you do, the highs won't go away, thanks to the .001 high pass cap there. Like any tone control, the lows won't go away either. Thus, as you turn this down you're cutting mids.

The 4.7k resistor is probably not doing too much honestly. Your pot's resistance is much, much higher, so up against that 4.7k would be barely visible. I bet you could leave that out and not notice any difference. Increasing the value of this resistor would raise the "floor" of the tone control (i.e. there would be more mids in the circuit at 0). If you went up to 22k, for instance, you'd probably notice the effect. I'm not sure you'd really want that though, since all you're doing is making the control less versatile.

I kind of like the idea of a mid scoop control on a humbucker-equipped guitar. I'd probably want to go active for something like that though.

 

[newjersey236]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

Wait a minute ...

You've put a high pass (the unfortunately named "Greasebucket") onto a low pass tone control.

You've essentially created a passive mid control. No matter what you do, the highs won't go away, thanks to the .001 high pass cap there. Like any tone control, the lows won't go away either. Thus, as you turn this down you're cutting mids.

The 4.7k resistor is probably not doing too much honestly. Your pot's resistance is much, much higher, so up against that 4.7k would be barely visible. I bet you could leave that out and not notice any difference. Increasing the value of this resistor would raise the "floor" of the tone control (i.e. there would be more mids in the circuit at 0). If you went up to 22k, for instance, you'd probably notice the effect. I'm not sure you'd really want that though, since all you're doing is making the control less versatile.

I kind of like the idea of a mid scoop control on a humbucker-equipped guitar. I'd probably want to go active for something like that though.

Ahh, very interesting, what you're saying definately makes sense. I guess the 4.7k resistor would indeed have very little effect at all, I think it might be the .1 cap wired to the 250k side of the pot and the .001 high pass cap working together then that might make a difference.

Because i did both versions of the TBX mod on the same guitar, (the blueguitar.org one and mine in this thread) and i've found that without the greasebucket circuit the lows are not as "controlled" and punchy/responsive but more so "loose" and boomier. However, with the Greasebucket circuit i feel like the lows still sound bassy but their more responsive and overall more usable, you seem very smart, do you think the .1 cap thats also on the 250k pot as well could be helping out?

Or would it sound the same regardless of the greasebucket citcuit being installed?

 

[tmmblues]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

Doubtful that you would get a patent but could help fund a patent lawyer's purchase of a '59 LP or '54 Strat.

 

[ZiggyZipgun]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

Hey guys, i have a mod i thought of all by myself (yay) that i call the "Super TBX Control" mod which consists of a TBX pot and a few resistors and capacitors and it really works great!

Are you positive you had this exact mod in your guitar? Because the TBX mod on BlueGuitar.org is in fact where I based some of this mod off of, but even though both mods follow the same principle with a 220k resistor wired between both pots and a treble cut and bass cut cap, mine sounds slightly different when turned counter clockwise because of the greasebucket circuit in play.

(I liked that)

Yes, I have had this exact mod in my guitar, thanks to having a box of stock Fender guts laying around, and I've tried a few other mods to the 250k, gone back to the "greasebucket", and currently it's pretty much wired like the BlueGuitar diagram, though with a different value Hovland MusiCap (not worth the $12). I'd also like to try a smooth-rotation Stellartone "ToneStyler", either with 8 or 16 positions, but the notched-rotation one I have in another guitar is too much of a pain in the ass to bother with.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

Ok, I went and did a circuit diagram of your TBX mod to help me understand what's going on here:

First off, I was wrong about the .001 cap. It doesn't retain highs. Sorry about that.

The best way to understand what a control does it to start by looking at what happens to the signal when it is at either end.

When your TBX is on 10 (arrows in the diagram shifted to the left), pretty much no signal is going through the .022 or the .01 caps thanks to that big fat 1 Meg pot. HOWEVER, a small amount of the highest frequencies are going through that .001 cap, then through a 117k load (the 250k pot and the 220k resistor in parallel = 117k), and out through the .022 cap and 4.7k resistor (whose effects are negligible) to ground. So, in effect, you're kind of negating the advantage of using a 1Meg pot (which are normally used to retain highs) by intentionally bleeding highs out through the .001 cap. If you took out the .001 cap, you'd lose practically no highs at 10. If you took out the 220k resistor, you'd lose a very small amount of highs at 10, but far less than you have now.

When the control is at zero (arrows to the right), the .022 cap is at full effect and bleeding all the highs and high mids to ground (again, the 4.7k resistor is doing pretty much nothing). The .001 cap is being bypassed, and so is the .01 cap. Essentially it's a stock Fender tone control at 0.

At the center detent, the 250k pot is at full effect but the 1Meg pot is still at zero. This is where it gets complicated. We are still bypassing the .001 cap - until we get close to 10 that thing is not in the circuit at all. The highs and mids can now get through the .01 cap, but they have to go through the entire 250k pot next, which will reduce the amount that get through. Next up is the .022 cap, and that will reject the mids that the .01 would have let through anyway. So basically, you end up with a weird situation where a tiny amount of highs get out through the circuit.

So, to summarize:

- The .001 cap is only effective with the control at or near 10, at which point it is bleeding a small amount of ultra highs to ground.

- The .01 cap isn't really doing anything. See below.

- The .022 cap is the "gatekeeper" to ground. Nothing gets to ground without going through it. It filters out the extra mids that the .01 cap lets through, but lets the ultra highs that the .001 lets through pass to ground.

- The 4.7k resistor is not doing much at all.

So ... I'm sorry to tell you this, but you've basically invented a really complicated stock Fender tone control.

 

[newjersey236]

Re: Tone Control Mods?!??

Ahh that was very cool to read. I never knew what that would have looked like on a diagram but thank you for ellaborating that for me.

Then if what your saying is true (which is what it seems), that would mean that the .001 cap is actually doing just what I thought it would do, bleeding off some of the super high frequencies to ground.

See, the reason I wanted to use a .001 cap is because I wanted a very trebly (tele-ish) sound at 10 but I didn't want full blown 1 meg pot treble, (thats too much for me) so I figured a really really low value like .001 would be good for this as it would allow alot of highs to be in the signal but it would also cut off some of those super high frequncies at 10 that I felt were too much for me.

As for the 4.7k resistor, I now understand that does pretty much nothing at all.

But however, looking at your entire diagram I noticed you put a .01 value cap on the 250k pot along with the .022 cap and 4.7k resistor. In my mod that particular cap was valued at .1.

Wouldn't that make a big difference though in this case being a .1 cap rather than a .01 cap because a .1 cap would be cutting out alot more mid and high frequncies than a .01 cap would be?

Because that would mean the .01 cap would cut out less highs than the .022 cap would be. So really, the .01 cap would be pointless since once it reaches the .022 cap it would filter out the extra mids that the .01 cap allowed as you said.

I was figuring that the .1 cap would be great for this mod then as it would be cutting out alot of highs and mids from the signal (at least alot more than a .022 cap). But then when the signal passes through the .022 cap it would retain some high and mid-end which would ultimately cause for the tone to be really low (because of the highs/mids cut from the .1 cap) but also have some high and mid frequencies still in the signal (due to the .022 cap).

It would be kind of like having the low frequencies of a .1 cap with some retained high and mid frequencies due to the .022 cap. Would this statement be correct??