Tone? Have to say I agree with a lot of this

[Clint 55]

That's what I was implying. Equipment makes up more of the tone in the player/equipment system. How many times do we have to go in circles about the same thing? We get it. The player has a small but significant effect on the tone, which comes after the majority of the effect from the instrument. I'm a pianist. I know. Pianists have a recognizable tone even though they're always playing different pianos. I have my own sound on my digital piano. Noone else sounds like that. But guess what happens if I press a button to change the sound from piano to rhodes? Yup. I think that has a tad bit more of an effect on the tone. We get it.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Where is re re boi when you need him? Lol...pcorn:

 

[CaptainWhizz]

If someone asks me “how to get a tone like [x]”, I tell them they need similar gear.

If someone asks me “how to play like [x]”, I will tell them that they need to study that player’s phrasing, picking techniques, legato techniques, frequently used licks and scales, etc.

If someone asks me “how to sound like [x]”, I will tell them they need similar gear AND to study that player; would probably also point out that they will mostly likely never sound *exactly* like that player, and that they probably shouldn’t try.

What I won’t do is tell them that they can’t sound like [x], because tone is in the fingers. Which is a comment that appears frequently online, and is most unhelpful.

People do ask “how do I get the guitar tone from the first Van Halen album?” or “how do I get the tone from Metallica’s Black Album?”. Telling them that they can’t because “tone is in the fingers” is not helping them.

As a metaphor, it is poor, because metaphors generally offer a comparison that is unlikely to be genuinely true (“he was on fire last night”, “he was flying up and down the fretboard”), but (as mentioned) someone who is not a native English speaker (or someone using Google translate…) might not grasp that it’s a metaphor, as it is plausibly something that someone could mean literally. I see a lot of comments on YouTube by people that aren’t native English speakers (and a lot of videos posted in other languages).

 

[Clint 55]

^ Good breakdown of the reality of it.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

As I said in my previous post, what and how you play is what people mean when they say 'tone is in the fingers'. It's called a metaphor - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/metaphor . Are you really not understanding this?

Exactly. I's a commonly used metaphor and I don't see any reason for such confusion over it or to debate whether it's literally true at all. It isn't,(the way "being on fire" or w/e is'n't either) but we all know what it means. And even if someone did'nt it's been explained to it's fullest over and over by a bunch of people in this thread (which I would'nt even have thought would be necessary..but there you have it)

 

[Phantasmagoria]

So, if it’s a figure of speech, then we can all agree that the phrase “tone is in the fingers” is not true.
Thank you.

Just like we can agree it's not in the equipment//gear/rig either. Wrong statement there

But in the electricity, as GtrSteve pointed out. Or perhaps in the power plant (where they make the electricity). or the architects that built the power plant, or the planning commission who commissioned it ... and so on..

 

[Phantasmagoria]

That's what I was implying. Equipment makes up more of the tone in the player/equipment system. How many times do we have to go in circles about the same thing? We get it. The player has a small but significant effect on the tone, which comes after the majority of the effect from the instrument. I'm a pianist. I know. Pianists have a recognizable tone even though they're always playing different pianos. I have my own sound on my digital piano. Noone else sounds like that. But guess what happens if I press a button to change the sound from piano to rhodes? Yup. I think that has a tad bit more of an effect on the tone. We get it.

And that's where we have disagreed from the start...

The player's role is a LARGE and significant one (not small). If he moved from a Marshall to a Mesa ..that will have a small (and not overly significant) effect on his tone. He will still be instantly recognizable as the player he is though ( as long as he's not one of those faceless/identitiyless metalcore guys w/ zero individuality who all play the same damn thing the same way through the same gear & go out of their way to be clones of each other...). Because of his feel/fingers (& not the planning commission who made the electricity that powers the gear)

 

[Phantasmagoria]

So it's a figure of speech. It's still a really bad figure of speech lol. It's much more truthful to say tone is in the equipment.

Nope it's not.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Exactly. What and how you play. Not whose fingers play it. Thank you.

ie. "feel" ..which was mentioned/clarified for you right at the start. That's what has more impact on a tonal identity (a player's tone) than whether he playing through this or that gear..

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Where is re re boi when you need him? Lol...pcorn:

Sleeping

 

[Phantasmagoria]

If someone asks me “how to get a tone like [x]”, I tell them they need similar gear.

If someone asks me “how to play like [x]”, I will tell them that they need to study that player’s phrasing, picking techniques, legato techniques, frequently used licks and scales, etc.

If someone asks me “how to sound like [x]”, I will tell them they need similar gear AND to study that player; would probably also point out that they will mostly likely never sound *exactly* like that player, and that they probably shouldn’t try.

What I won’t do is tell them that they can’t sound like [x], because tone is in the fingers. Which is a comment that appears frequently online, and is most unhelpful.

People do ask “how do I get the guitar tone from the first Van Halen album?” or “how do I get the tone from Metallica’s Black Album?”. Telling them that they can’t because “tone is in the fingers” is not helping them.

As a metaphor, it is poor, because metaphors generally offer a comparison that is unlikely to be genuinely true (“he was on fire last night”, “he was flying up and down the fretboard”), but (as mentioned) someone who is not a native English speaker (or someone using Google translate…) might not grasp that it’s a metaphor, as it is plausibly something that someone could mean literally. I see a lot of comments on YouTube by people that aren’t native English speakers (and a lot of videos posted in other languages).

And yet there are numerous examples (see Ace's post earlier) of player's sounding like other player's using completely different equipment (..cuz fingers come first ..not gear)

On the other hand you have numerous examples of players that are obsessive about owning/buying every link in (say) EVH's tone chain & yet don't sound remotely like him when they start playing (cuz...you guessed it..fingers)

As far as 'tone is in the fingers' it's a valid and widely used metaphor & most people know what it means (and that it's a metaphor/not literal) ...personally I've never experienced any confusion w/ it...

 

[CaptainWhizz]

And that's where we have disagreed from the start...

The player's role is a LARGE and significant one (not small). If he moved from a Marshall to a Mesa ..that will have a small (and not overly significant) effect on his tone. He will still be instantly recognizable as the player he is though ( as long as he's not one of those faceless/identitiyless metalcore guys w/ zero individuality who all play the same damn thing the same way through the same gear & go out of their way to be clones of each other...). Because of his feel/fingers (& not the planning commission who made the electricity that powers the gear)

So “tone is in the fingers” except when it isn’t.

People exist outside of this thread, and those people are saying/ being told “tone is in the fingers” as if two people can never the same tone because they have different fingers.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

So “tone is in the fingers” except when it isn’t.

Yeah, that's exactly right as I've said multiple times in this thread..there are generic/faceless players like you have generic pup's, amps etc. there 's nothing about them that stands out from the crowd. Applies to players & gear ...

People exist outside of this thread, and those people are saying/ being told “tone is in the fingers” as if two people can never the same tone because they have different fingers.

That's something I've never said. In fact I've said the opposite. Players can TO AN EXTENT be clones of each other by copying the other guy's licks/gear (I mentioned Joe stump/Yngwie in that context & said Stump does'nt sound like Yngwie because he has different FEEL/FINGERS/TOUCH, despite using the same gear & playing the same licks) but there are plenty of players around who sound a lot more like Yngwie, 'cause they more able to clone his FEEL as well ...sometimes using pretty different gear (which goes to show what comes first.. fingers or gear)

And here's a list of some of the gear Tony Iommi's used through the years...


https://www.groundguitar.com/tony-io...tars-and-gear/


How massive of a difference do you think all that ^^ made to his sound & who do you think he sounded just like right through it all :lmao:

 

[CaptainWhizz]

Who do I think he sounds like? Like Tony Iommi.

What do I think his guitar tone sounds like? It varies according to what gear he’s using.

Do I think he has the same guitar tone on the recording of “Sweet Leaf” as he does on “Laughing Man (In The Devil Mask)”? Absolutely not.

If someone didn’t know Tony Iommi was playing guitar on both of those songs, would they recognise that the same guitarist played both songs? Probably not.

If someone heard another song in a similar style to “Laughing Man” played by a different guitarist, but using all of the same gear, recorded in the same place with the same people working on it, would they think that guitarist was the same guitarist who played on “Laughing Man”? Quite possibly.

Would someone think that the guitar tone on the song played by another guitarist on the same gear etc. was the same guitar tone as the guitar tone on “Laughing Man”? Probably.

Would someone say the the guitar tone on the new song and “Laughing Man” were more alike than the guitar tones on “Sweet Leaf” and “Laughing Man”? I can’t see how they wouldn’t.

To repeat the definition:

Definition of tone

1: vocal or musical sound of a specific quality especially: musical sound with respect to timbre and manner of expression.

 

[CaptainWhizz]

If someone wants to get the tone of the first few power chords of “Sad But True” to record an original song, what would you tell them?

If someone wants to get the guitar tone of the “Cherub Rock” solo for a solo they’re working on for an original song, what would you tell them?

In both cases, the original works are completely different styles, they just want the tones.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Who do I think he sounds like? Like Tony Iommi.

What do I think his guitar tone sounds like? It varies according to what gear he’s using.

Do I think he has the same guitar tone on the recording of “Sweet Leaf” as he does on “Laughing Man (In The Devil Mask)”? Absolutely not.

If someone didn’t know Tony Iommi was playing guitar on both of those songs, would they recognise that the same guitarist played both songs? Probably not.

If someone heard another song in a similar style to “Laughing Man” played by a different guitarist, but using all of the same gear, recorded in the same place with the same people working on it, would they think that guitarist was the same guitarist who played on “Laughing Man”? Quite possibly.

Would someone think that the guitar tone on the song played by another guitarist on the same gear etc. was the same guitar tone as the guitar tone on “Laughing Man”? Probably.

Would someone say the the guitar tone on the new song and “Laughing Man” were more alike than the guitar tones on “Sweet Leaf” and “Laughing Man”? I can’t see how they wouldn’t.

To repeat the definition:

Definition of tone

1: vocal or musical sound of a specific quality especially: musical sound with respect to timbre and manner of expression.

Yeah..sure an updated/moderized version that still sounds 100% like Tony Iommi who is one of the most instantly recognizable players on the planet (no thanks to his gear)

sweet leaf was what 40+ years earlier and probably has 1/4 the gain he now uses... it's not like players themselves don't change in 40 years (don't forget that variable). Compare him with an SG vs an Ironbird/Washburn in the 80's. (did'nt even know he owned an Ironbird/Washburn back then..it sure was'nt "obvious")

And here Yngwie plays a Gibson V..and sounds just like...Yngwie!

 

[Phantasmagoria]

If someone wants to get the tone of the first few power chords of “Sad But True” to record an original song, what would you tell them?

If someone wants to get the guitar tone of the “Cherub Rock” solo for a solo they’re working on for an original song, what would you tell them?

In both cases, the original works are completely different styles, they just want the tones.

As a gigging player I have heard some pretty sad sounding "Sad but true" versions played through Mesa MkII's/III's/IV's w/ Esp guitars...so I'd probably tell him to practice, practice, practice :bigthumb:

Cannon rock I have no idea about what gear was used....nice tune though

 

[CaptainWhizz]

As a gigging player I have heard some pretty sad sounding "Sad but true" versions played through Mesa MkII's/III's/IV's w/ Esp guitars...so I'd probably tell him to practice, practice, practice :bigthumb:

Cannon rock I have no idea about what gear was used....nice tune though

So, even though they don’t want to play “Sad But True”, they just want the tone, you’d tell them to practice rather than give them gear advice? Even though they might be an amazing guitarist with no clue about gear?

You would say that “the specific quality of the sound” that Tony Iommi plays “with respect to timbre and manner of expression” has stayed the same throughout his career then?

 

[Phantasmagoria]

So, even though they don’t want to play “Sad But True”, they just want the tone, you’d tell them to practice rather than give them gear advice? Even though they might be an amazing guitarist with no clue about gear?

The guy's I mentioned hearing cover Sad but true had all the gear down pat, so I approached the remaining variable..the one that was actually making all the difference ..fingers (hence the advice to practice)

You would say that “the specific quality of the sound” that Tony Iommi plays “with respect to timbre and manner of expression” has stayed the same throughout his career then?

I've never had the slightest problem recognizing Tony Iommi at every stage of his career & that's the truth.

 

[CaptainWhizz]

I see you are deliberately not answering my questions now.