transparent amps / speakers

neosadist

New member
All,

I have a question. Most guitar amps seem to be set up to color the sound coming in, whether intentionally or not. For example, a Fender amp sounds like a Fender amp, a Marshall sounds like a Marshall, etc.
But how about if the desire was NOT to color the sound at all, or as little as possible? Does anyone know what brand amps or amp speakers (should i DIY) I should be looking at? Thanks!

Robert
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

That is an interesting question - but I wonder if you would really want that? I've read (and believe) that the amp is as much a part of your instrument as the guitar. So the "coloring" of the sound by an amp is as important as the wood on the guitar and the pickups you choose. I don't know, might be worth exploring - just as an academic exercise.
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

RW James said:
That is an interesting question - but I wonder if you would really want that? I've read (and believe) that the amp is as much a part of your instrument as the guitar. So the "coloring" of the sound by an amp is as important as the wood on the guitar and the pickups you choose. I don't know, might be worth exploring - just as an academic exercise.

True, coloring happens. I'm just wanting as little as possible because I already have "coloring" going on if you know what I mean. It's an experiment. I've been told that the PA sound is as good (if not better) than the Twin Reverb, and that's the Line Out coloring into the church mixer board.

I dunno. I have a 1/4" -> dual RCA that I plugged into my dad's surround sound system while I was on vacation, and that has got to be the very best it has EVER sounded. I'm almost wondering if that's what I should be taking on the road with me! :S
 
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Re: transparent amps / speakers

i think keyboard amps are supposed to be pretty transparent. although i'm not sure why you would want this to begin with...what kind of sound are your after?
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

muttonchopsrule said:
i think keyboard amps are supposed to be pretty transparent. although i'm not sure why you would want this to begin with...what kind of sound are your after?

The sound of my Line Out, since it's 100% unique to that pedal.
Oh wait, I didn't want to give away my secrets! :D
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

Scott_F said:

Yeah....
Actually, someone I have contacted says that he just uses two Fender Blues Juniors, modified so that there's a Line In. I'm really thinking about doing that now....
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

If you wanted something that was truly a "blank plate" of sorts, I'm thinking the Roland JC-120 might be your thing.
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

The Line Out of your wired "black box" (I guess it's some sort of modelling amp / sans amp) direct to the PA Line in... wheres the problem?
If I remember right clawfinger was doing this too

The pedal should have a speaker sim! If not I would rather try a poweramp + cab!
 
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Re: transparent amps / speakers

the_Chris said:
If you wanted something that was truly a "blank plate" of sorts, I'm thinking the Roland JC-120 might be your thing.

+1 Solid state amps are generally designed to colour sound as little as possible. The JC-120 or the Crate Powerblock might be just what you're looking for. A lot of the colouration that you get from tube amps happens because of slight distortion and compression caused by the tubes. If you have a well designed amp with a lot of clean power and an ok EQ you should be able to get an uncoloured sound.
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

The amp is the other half of the electric guitar and a good amp colors the tone to give us the electric guitar tones we all know and love.

An amp that did not color the sound would give you a very bland, hi-fi kind of tone.

You wouldn't like it.

It'd be like plugging your guitar into a PA system and trying to get a good tone by twiddling the knobs on the mixing board. I doubt you could find a tone you'd like...

Lew
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

the_Chris said:
If you wanted something that was truly a "blank plate" of sorts, I'm thinking the Roland JC-120 might be your thing.

Ding ding ding!

Keyboard amp would work too, but they tend to sound a bit dry. Although maybe that's what you're going for ... if so, I recommend at least 100W for a solid state keyboard amp.

I wonder how this one would sound with a guitar ...
http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=32&cat=57&id=340
 
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Re: transparent amps / speakers

Lewguitar said:
The amp is the other half of the electric guitar and a good amp colors the tone to give us the electric guitar tones we all know and love.

An amp that did not color the sound would give you a very bland, hi-fi kind of tone.

You wouldn't like it.

It'd be like plugging your guitar into a PA system and trying to get a good tone by twiddling the knobs on the mixing board. I doubt you could find a tone you'd like...

Lew

This is assuming there's nothing between the guitar and the PA, which, if you read posts 3 and 5, is not the case.

I think the guy knows what the role of an amp is. Instead of lecturing him, let's try and help, ok?
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

ratherdashing said:
This is assuming there's nothing between the guitar and the PA, which, if you read posts 3 and 5, is not the case.

I think the guy knows what the role of an amp is. Instead of lecturing him, let's try and help, ok?

The other day I showed up at rehearsal and my Deluxe Reverb would not work...the rectifier tube had fallen out and broke.

So I plugged my Strat into the PA to get through the rehearsal.

Sounded sterile and bland and hi fi...a useless tone for rock guitar.

I tried adding some effects: a MIJ TS-9 Tube Screamer and a MIJ Boss DS-1.

Still sounded awful.

I have some experience with this kind of stuff too and unless Robert is going to plug into a rack full of zillion dollar Lexicons and other processing equipment, like Johnny A, and then into a PA, I doubt he's going to get a very good rock tone plugging into a neutral sounding, non-tone coloring PA mixing board and PA amp.

However, tone is a personal thing.

Plugging into:
"my dad's surround sound stereo system"
wouldn't float my boat.

"I've been told that the PA sound is as good (if not better) than the Twin Reverb, and that's the Line Out coloring into the church mixer board."

I would have to disagree strongly with that statement...unless a guy prefers thin plinky sterile tone to the full bodied tone of a classic Twin Reverb amp.

I've never plugged my Strat into a neutral sounding PA Mixing board and power amp and been happy with the tone regardless of what effects I tried to enhance the tone with. I'd rather just plug into the right guitar amp right from the get go...what's the point in plugging into a PA and then trying to use effects to make the PA sound like a good guitar amp???

Lew
 
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Re: transparent amps / speakers

Marcel said:
The Line Out of your wired "black box" (I guess it's some sort of modelling amp / sans amp) direct to the PA Line in... wheres the problem? If I remember right clawfinger was doing this too. The pedal should have a speaker sim! If not I would rather try a poweramp + cab!

It has a sim. I think it's the best I've heard, amp or sim. That's why I was wanting something Line Out. However, thanks: the PA might be what I want. Now only for the time to go and try them out! (child + USAF + wife full time work + wife full time college! :S)

But thanks!
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

ratherdashing said:
This is assuming there's nothing between the guitar and the PA, which, if you read posts 3 and 5, is not the case. I think the guy knows what the role of an amp is. Instead of lecturing him, let's try and help, ok?

No, the pedal. Guitar -> ME-50 -> board. The ME-50 Line Out has an amp simulator (not selectable, and not modeled after any amp, just a generic sim) that I find very nice.
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

Lewguitar said:
The amp is the other half of the electric guitar and a good amp colors the tone to give us the electric guitar tones we all know and love. An amp that did not color the sound would give you a very bland, hi-fi kind of tone. You wouldn't like it. It'd be like plugging your guitar into a PA system and trying to get a good tone by twiddling the knobs on the mixing board. I doubt you could find a tone you'd like... Lew

You probably just misunderstood. It's guitar -> ME-50 -> amp. The ME-50 Line Out jack has an amp sim. It's not modeled after any real amp, is only on Line Out, and is not selectable. It's mainly for mixers and headphones. However, something about the way it sounds is totally awesome, in my opinion. That's why I'm wondering. It's honestly a VERY close call if I was to pick Line Out into a board or the left and right amp jacks into the Twin Reverb. The only thing is that this amp gives me more versatility: I can add/remove spring reverb and tremolo ("vibrato") separately.

----- Tone rant below -----

I dunno. I've been on this quest for tone, and I find more clues and keep getting close. So far, SD pickups are much better in my guitars. More tone to start off with. At one time I was thinking about contracting someone to make me a custom totally-analog multi-stomp-box out of a Boss blues driver, chorus ensemble, tremolo, and delay. Granted, totally analog means I'd have to buy the separate pedals and then disassemble, reassemble, etc. My three "must have" pedals so far are blues driver, chorus, and delay. But to buy them separately was more expensive, and since I have to be VERY versatile where I tend to play, it was either buy 10 pedals or one multieffects.

Then I got my Twin Reverb. Until then, I was running Line Out on the ME-50 into a pair of Altec Lansing XT1 speakers Line In. At church it was Line Out -> direct box -> some Roland keyboard amp and the church sound board. It honestly sounded very nice. But the Twin Reverb, at least in my small dorm room in Korea, sounded krappy, and sounded like it had leaky capacitors. When I did a live "battle of the bands" there, outdoors, however, they had brand new 65 fender twin reverb reissues. These were VERY loud and VERY nice.

Then I got back to the states and was playing in a large church. Their amps sucked (Line 6 don't like my ME-50) so I played Line Out into the church PA, essentially guitar -> ME50 -> Direct Box -> XLR into sound board. I was told it sounded awesome, but I was the only guitar player there.

Then the next practice I hefted my Twin Reverb to church. So it was guitar -> ME50 -> Twin Reverb. I was told it sounded awesome once again, but this time by guitar players. I paid $300 for this amp originally. One guitar player was insistent that I sell it to him for $600! That's when I started wondering about what other amps I could get and how it would sound.

Guitar players tend to want their own unique sound. I was thinking that maybe if I ran a unique amp and Line Out into it, I would sound totally unique. I emailed several custom amp shops and they recommended either mod two Fender Blues Juniors for stereo out of Line Out for "true" chorus, or else they would contract, but it would cost me $600, my "budget".

So now I'm not sure. I have yet to have enough time to go and hunt for any amps.
 
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Re: transparent amps / speakers

I'll tell you Robert, the best tones I've ever got playing in church came from plugging into a stereo effects unit (in my case, a Boss stereo digital delay set to "barely on") and plugging the stereo output into two 20 watt amps (in my case, two Fender Deluxe amps). Seems like any more output than about 30 watts is to loud for church, but plugging into two 20 watt amps softens the focus so that sound is dispersed and less directional so that I don't sound to loud and inappropriate for a church setting.

I don't think I could play a Twin Reverb at church unless I was playing very clean and very clean only. They are just to loud for getting a rock tone in church.

Truthfully, I don't like to play with a distorted rock tone at church...just seems inappropriate.
 
Re: transparent amps / speakers

Lewguitar said:
I'll tell you Robert, the best tones I've ever got playing in church came from plugging into a stereo effects unit (in my case, a Boss stereo digital delay set to "barely on") and plugging the stereo output into two 20 watt amps (in my case, two Fender Deluxe amps). Seems like any more output than about 30 watts is to loud for church, but plugging into two 20 watt amps softens the focus so that sound is dispersed and less directional so that I don't sound to loud and inappropriate for a church setting. I don't think I could play a Twin Reverb at church unless I was playing very clean and very clean only. They are just to loud for getting a rock tone in church. Truthfully, I don't like to play with a distorted rock tone at church...just seems inappropriate.

Hmm. Well sure, I was thinking about two amps, but amps I can actually carry. I guess I could do the dual Fender Blues Junior thing.... I'll see what pans out. By the way, what's a "decent" condition 1972 Fender Twin Reverb with original pedal worth? :D
By the way, this church is more of a OD-2 sounding church: you want overdrive, but you want some sustain from a distortion.
 
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