Tried everything but my Epiphone 2023 IBG 50s LP just would not..........

[gimmieinfo]

.......clean up well when i ride the volume. Posted about it here and there is nothing i didn't try with wiring treble bleeds, 50s wiring, cover removal, magnet replacement, pot changes, and much more. I finally found the reason and while many or most will thin it's BS, freefrog will agree because i had mentioned this in my post and he agreed. But till today i never tried it. 4 conductor wiring was the issue! Hear me out. We all know cables cause capacitance but we think of this in the context of guitar cables and we know ya gotta run pretty long cables before it can muddy things up. And 4 conductor pickup cables are only at most probably 8-10" long. But there are differences. Guitar cables have a thick plastic jacket on the hot lead that varies but can be probably .030" thick which separates the conductor from the shield In a 4 conductor pickup cable you have the 4 conductors of 2 coils all bunched up together with jackets not much thicker then a piece of paper. So all these conductors are going to generate a ton more capacitance per inch than a guitar cable. So i opened my pups and cut the coil wires that are the ones that connect the coils together from the cable and soldered them directly together. Now of course i cant split them but i hated the split sound anyways. Now all that rides in the cable are the pickup ground and hot. I was so thrilled when i plugged it in ! Now when i roll of the volume it cleans up much better, not overly compressed and dull when rolling off the volume when clean, it's no longer muddy congested, and it cuts and bites like a good gibson. In fact, it now sounds like a gibson The sound on 10 is also vastly improved. It has all that ripping LP top end with gain thats harmonically rich as hell.

For the last 10 months since i got it it's been a never ending experiment with nothing working to cure the issues till now ad here are at least some of the things i tried...
1. 2 other pickup sets and several magnet swaps.
2. pup covers removed
3. 50s wiring
4 treble bleed of every variety imaginable. (and i am well versed in how they work and all the possible circuits)
5. replaced every piece of hardware in the TOM system with quality parts
6. tried various pots
7. pup height and pole adjustments, tried it all
8. snipped the excess polepiece screws under the pup (old GP mag tip, doesn't do much)

I know i missed some things, but imagine the exponential possibilities of all the things i listed in every combination imaginable...i didn't cover them all as that would take a lifetime, but a LOT. In other words i went to insane extremes over the last 10 months i've had it to try and make this guitar usable which till now meant leave it on 10 and only use it for songs that are gain from start to finish! I'm a player that rides the volume constantly to vary gain from full drive down to clean and this was the only thing that allowed this guitar to do that well. Those who want to bash me because they think this is cork sniffing BS, please don't.....just think of it as a PSA that might just help someone. By the way, ever notice the LPs that do the uncompressed open airy clear alive thing are the higher end ones like standards and CS that all (or almost all) have single conductor vintage style wire? And note the center has a very thick cloth jacket? I was thinking thats even better. Further distance from shield to hot. Might have to order some of that. :burnout:

 

[beaubrummels]

Glad you got it worked out, but it doesn't make a lot of sense, nor does all the things you tried to solve it. Capacitance in wiring would just change the EQ of it, not the level of the overall signal. Same with treble bleeds and 50s wiring, clipping the filister screws and pot changes, those just change the sound, not the level.

 

[gimmieinfo]

Not sure what i said that made you think i was talking about levels. I was talking about the tone cleaning up much better with the volume pot and a lot more clarity as opposed to a dull sound when lowering the pot for cleaner tones. Maybe you don't ride your volume old school for clean to mean? If not that might account for your confusion

 

[beaubrummels]

Not sure what i said that made you think i was talking about levels. I was talking about the tone cleaning up much better with the volume pot and a lot more clarity as opposed to a dull sound when lowering the pot for cleaner tones. Maybe you don't ride your volume old school for clean to mean? If not that might account for your confusion

"Cleaning up" is typically about rolling the volume to reduce the level and not driving the input of the amp as hard. Changing the tone is ... changing the tone. I've been playing for over 45 years and worked professionally for about half of those years. I generally only use the volume to go from clean to grit to distorted. I'm not confused about how things work old school at all.

 

[gimmieinfo]

Ever played guitar without a treble bleed than put one in? If so you've experience how the tone can differ when rolling down to clean up. My LP sounded dull and lifeless when i rolled off for cleans much like a guitar w/o a bleed even tho it HAD a treble bleed. This cleared that mud up when i rolled the volume down due to the lack of capacitance that this wiring change caused.

 

[Aceman]

I think we are just having a misunderstanding of what we mean by various terms

Clean = no distortion
Rolling the volume down = lowering the output
Volume lowering results in duller tone or less clarity, openess, etc... <= This is what you are talking about. Rolling the volume control down, besides lowering the output, rolled off treble.

I have indeed installed a Treble Bleed in a Les Paul before. I am generally not a "ride the volume" but I have never seen a Treble Bleed not work.

If what you did works, cool. I'll stick with the treble bleed - seems to be a lot less delicate surgery.

I too think that some of the things you tried don't make sense:

1. 2 other pickup sets and several magnet swaps. - Might be the pickups in that specific guitar. Doubtful, but possible. Neutral on this.
2. pup covers removed - Slight change at best, but your ears might notice. OK
3. 50s wiring - I would expect this to work every time
4 treble bleed of every variety imaginable. (and i am well versed in how they work and all the possible circuits) - I would expect this to work every time
5. replaced every piece of hardware in the TOM system with quality parts - no idea why this would impact the tone as the volume lowers
6. tried various pots - pot taper or value might be an issue. Linear vs audio. 500 vs 300. A slow taper would lose less treble for a longer time. 500k would have more, but not a ton. Now...a 500k Linear would hold volume/tone way more than a 300k Audio. Big difference there.
7. pup height and pole adjustments, tried it all - Definitely a factor...so many people don't take time to do this justice.
8. snipped the excess polepiece screws under the pup (old GP mag tip, doesn't do much)​ - Don't know about brighter, but poles can change tone. But I wouldn't think it would be volume related.

I can imagine something going weird with the 4 conductor. But I wouldn't expect it on three different sets.

I'd have went with Treble bleed first or 50's
Then I'd change the pots

And that would be it...But I do respect the Frog's knowledge. If he says it can happen I believe it can.

 

[freefrog]

Not absurd to me when I think to the lab tests done here for a few decades.

If I can share once again my two cents of tedious rambling about these questions...

Many internet posts claim that inner capacitance of pickups and their own cables doesn't make a significant difference because it's drowned by the much higher capacitance of any typical guitar cable...

It's true to some extent but... What this opinion doesn't take in account is how parasitic capacitance before pots changes how pickups behave when one lowers the volume of a guitar. It's not that hard to check since it can be modelized through 5spice sims.

That's why many hand wound pickups are prized for their ability to clean up: how they've been wound makes their coils less capacitive and shifts their resonant peak(s) at a higher frequency when volume is lowered... hence a cleaner sound.

This effect logically depends simultaneously on the stray capacitance of the pickup cable/wiring... If one connects highly capacitive wires to low capacitance coils, the overall capacitive load of pickup + their cables will remain high and will make the sound less clear once the volume lowered.


For the record, 4 conductors cables have also a tendency to mismatch the capacitive loads of separate coils, generating a comb filtering effect. DiMarzio Dual-Resonance is nothing else than a way to correct this effect OR to make it more pronounced, by changing the inner capacitance of coils themselves thanks to the use of different wire gauges...

Anyway: when I need a low capacitance 4-conductors wiring, I use Mogami cable (2799 model with grey housing). It can help to shift the comb filtering aforementioned beyond the audio range and to avoid its sonic downsides - albeit this comb filtering effect can ALSO be used to favor clarity by creating a secondary resonant peak IN the audio range!...

Sometimes it's useful or necessary to reverse the wiring and magnetic polarity of a humbucker with a 4-conductors cable, in order to keep it in phase with the other pickup(s) while promoting or taming the comb filtering effect of mismatched capacitive values. ;-)

Below, again, a link toward the topic that I've devoted to these things a while back. Click on "POSTS" rather than "LATER ACTIVITY" to read my contributions in chronological order. These contributions share for free a part of my work with/for several foreign pickups winders.

https://music-electronics-forum.com...ive-mag-transducers-a-few-thoughts#post964621

 

[Chistopher]

Props to you for trying 9 different ways to fix your problem. I would have just sold the instrument if it bothered me that much

 

[freefrog]

By the way, ever notice the LPs that do the uncompressed open airy clear alive thing are the higher end ones like standards and CS that all (or almost all) have single conductor vintage style wire? And note the center has a very thick cloth jacket? I was thinking thats even better. Further distance from shield to hot. Might have to order some of that.

While I'm at it: I agree with the idea of distance from shield to hot as lowering stray capacitance but according to my archived data, braided shielded wire can exhibit really variable capacitive values.

If the cotton insulation is "contaminated" by moisture, the cable becomes even more capacitive. Like three times more than in dry air. Manfred Zollner (from the GITEC) published a video about that on YT...

Braided shielded wires from different makers or eras also have a different capacitance. The kind currently used by Gibson is most of the time highly capacitive IME. I suspect it's a conscious way for Gibson to lower the resonant frequency, in order to make their PU's warmer sounding. I've recently corrected a T-Type because of that: it had a lower inductance than a vintage T-Top but had a lower pitched resonance mostly because of its own braided shielded cable...

FWIW.

 

[Mincer]

Props to you for trying 9 different ways to fix your problem. I would have just sold the instrument if it bothered me that much

No doubt...I don't think I'd make it through half that list.

 

[Spaghetti Bolo]

While I'm at it: I agree with the idea of distance from shield to hot as lowering stray capacitance but according to my archived data, braided shielded wire can exhibit really variable capacitive values.

If the cotton insulation is "contaminated" by moisture, the cable becomes even more capacitive. Like three times more than in dry air. Manfred Zollner (from the GITEC) published a video about that on YT...

Braided shielded wires from different makers or eras also have a different capacitance. The kind currently used by Gibson is most of the time highly capacitive IME. I suspect it's a conscious way for Gibson to lower the resonant frequency, in order to make their PU's warmer sounding. I've recently corrected a T-Type because of that: it had a lower inductance than a vintage T-Top but had a lower pitched resonance mostly because of its own braided shielded cable...

FWIW.

Yep, every sample of braided or 4 conductor cable I've measured have exhibited wildly different capacitance values.

 

[gimmieinfo]

Just to update, weeks later i have been playing it over my other guitars and realy getting to love it to the point i have rarely pickup up my others. Before this i contemplated selling it. I also was able to put the covers back on which before this i hated because they made it too muddy. So this was not remotely close to to being placebo effect or such. It really made a serious difference. No one ever understands this when i say it, but while the effect seemed subtle at first, the results as to how much it affected my happiness of the tone was huge. I heard a very well respected player say the same thing recently so if it doesn't make sense to you i think if and when you experience it you'll get it.

What spaghetti bolo said makes sense too because i put some mojotone 59 clones in it at one point and even with vintage braid they never helped my issue like this. Sounds odd i know but i know what i'm hearing, and i think i know why that is. Anyways, i found a post by the guy who makes zexcoil pickups from years ago and he posted a long one about this with graphs and examples showing that he found the same thing and that he too was very surprised that pickup cables could make such a difference. So I and those of you agreeing with my findings are in good company. Try and post this at most forums and 1/2 the replies will be members insulting you for being a placebo prone and clueless idiot. It's too bad because it makes me and i'm sure many others hesitant to post things like this which could be helpful to many others if people would just have an open mind.

 

[Seashore]

Just to update, weeks later i have been playing it over my other guitars and realy getting to love it to the point i have rarely pickup up my others. Before this i contemplated selling it. I also was able to put the covers back on which before this i hated because they made it too muddy. So this was not remotely close to to being placebo effect or such. It really made a serious difference. No one ever understands this when i say it, but while the effect seemed subtle at first, the results as to how much it affected my happiness of the tone was huge. I heard a very well respected player say the same thing recently so if it doesn't make sense to you i think if and when you experience it you'll get it.

What spaghetti bolo said makes sense too because i put some mojotone 59 clones in it at one point and even with vintage braid they never helped my issue like this. Sounds odd i know but i know what i'm hearing, and i think i know why that is. Anyways, i found a post by the guy who makes zexcoil pickups from years ago and he posted a long one about this with graphs and examples showing that he found the same thing and that he too was very surprised that pickup cables could make such a difference. So I and those of you agreeing with my findings are in good company. Try and post this at most forums and 1/2 the replies will be members insulting you for being a placebo prone and clueless idiot. It's too bad because it makes me and i'm sure many others hesitant to post things like this which could be helpful to many others if people would just have an open mind.

It's not nuts to me. I've experienced similar issues with lacking tone and I also get what you're saying about a "small" difference in tone being a night-and-day difference in terms of feel and your enjoyment of the instrument. Glad it's working out.