Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Willy25

New member
Yesterday I just received my first tube amp A peavey 6505mh and a 2x12 80w with blue marvel speakers.
Today I was ab testing the amp with my vypyr vip 3. What I noticed on the vypyr was a really like super lol small latency.
Is this placebo or something actually wrong with the vypyr?
Playing fast on the vypyr my hand gets really tense and tired. but on the real amp it doesnt.
I feel faster and every note lands on time without stress. How weird
 
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Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

From what I've heard, modeling amps can have latency, like a few milliseconds. I don't think I hear/feel it (I have a VIP 1), but it drives some players crazy.
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Now that I think about it, my POD does feel a tad sluggish compared to my amp. I could believe that there's a little bit of latency on my POD compared to the amp.
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Interesting so I’m not the only one. How do players adjust to that or there’s a way to fix it?

What about ss amps? Not modeling amps

Have the newer modeling amps fixed this issue?
 
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Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

most modeling amps have a minimum of 3-4 milliseconds for the necessary ADC and DAC conversion -most DSP processing between these conversions is in only microseconds making for even the heaviest digital patching and processing inside the DSP at <6ms total -so negligible usually

-some people can start to notice at 8-10 milliseconds latency but most not until 15 ms or so.

Do you have digital pedals in front of it also?
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

most modeling amps have a minimum of 3-4 milliseconds for the necessary ADC and DAC conversion -most DSP processing between these conversions is in only microseconds making for even the heaviest digital patching and processing inside the DSP at <6ms total -so negligible usually

-some people can start to notice at 8-10 milliseconds latency but most not until 15 ms or so.

Do you have digital pedals in front of it also?


Interesting! Is this maybe why high end modeling hardware wins like helix, axe fx and kemper?

I wonder if solid state amps don’t have same problem?

No I’m not using dígital pedals. for my tube amp I’m planing of getting a hx effects but after this millisecond issue I don’t know if I should go with real pedals. But I haven’t tried high end modeling hardware
 
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Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Interesting! Is this maybe why high end modeling hardware wins like helix, axe fx and kemper?

I wonder if solid state amps don’t have same problem?

No I’m not using dígital pedals. for my tube amp I’m planing of getting a hx effects but after this millisecond issue I don’t know if I should go with real pedals. But I haven’t tried high end modeling hardware

Solid State is not necessarily digital -but digital is solid state. So a "Solid State" amp does not suffer the conversion latency as a Digital Amp

-A digital circuit has to quantize the waveform to 1s and zeros and then back again -and that is where most of the latency occurs.
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Cool thanks for the explanations my friend. It seems I’ll stay with tube amps. To bad I can’t Crank it at night. I’ll try those new amps like boss katana for late night practicing and see how it goes.
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Higher ADC/DAC sampling rates can lower latency, but that's expensive in other ways--sure, you get more precise delay times and panning, but it's not like most music gear gives you that fine control. Takes more DSP/CPU to work at higher frequencies, and that can introduce latency, and is too much for most affordable DSP chips. Line 6 has stated they do oversample internally in Helix, particularly on the amplifier models, but that anything where it doesn't have audible impact they work at 48KHz (or maybe lower, for models of low sample rate digital devices).

PC hardware tends to have higher latency, simply because of limitations of IO interfaces. USB has signalling overhead, PCI & PCIe have to fill a buffer before you can transmit it across the bus, etc. Though even there, a high sample rate interface can typically manage sub-millisecond timings with good drivers, but that's very sensitive to other apps being well-behaved.

1ms delay is the same as moving a speaker 1.1517' away. A 4 millisecond delay could be compensated for by moving the analog (tube/non-DSP solid state) 4.5' away. Many tube amps have DSP reverb or other effects built in now, and complaints about latency on those are about nonexistant.

It might be something else, like the attack feeling on the amp model, that is bothering you.

Boss Katana is a digital modeler with digital effects. But it's a newer one than Peavey's old tech. Newer devices are more likely to have lower latency, so hopefully it works for you.
 
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Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Thanks for the info!

I don’t think is the pick attack. It some latency that I feel or hear with vypyr.
Oh and with plugins too.

Mincer said it drives some players crazy. So this might be why some tube players or ss amp players don’t move
To digital? You know how everyone is different in some areas? It probably applys here too ��

Yes hopefully the boss katana works for me. Thanks

But yeah I’ll stick with tube amps. Honestly I didn’t find a big difference in sound. Modelers do a good job getting a good tone But the latency and pick attack it’s another level.
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Cool thanks for the explanations my friend. It seems I’ll stay with tube amps. To bad I can’t Crank it at night. I’ll try those new amps like boss katana for late night practicing and see how it goes.

Alternatively, for less than the price of a BOSS Katana 100, you might consider a Weber Mass reactive attenuator.
If you have a head + cabinet or your combo has the speaker connected via speaker cable, you could get one and it will drastically help with the volume issue.

A reactive attenuator won't sound EXACTLY like your amp does fully cranked, but it'll get really close.
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Alternatively, for less than the price of a BOSS Katana 100, you might consider a Weber Mass reactive attenuator.
If you have a head + cabinet or your combo has the speaker connected via speaker cable, you could get one and it will drastically help with the volume issue.

A reactive attenuator won't sound EXACTLY like your amp does fully cranked, but it'll get really close.

Thanks I’ll take a look
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Thanks for the info!

I don’t think is the pick attack. It some latency that I feel or hear with vypyr.
Oh and with plugins too.

Mincer said it drives some players crazy. So this might be why some tube players or ss amp players don’t move
To digital? You know how everyone is different in some areas? It probably applys here too ��

Yes hopefully the boss katana works for me. Thanks

But yeah I’ll stick with tube amps. Honestly I didn’t find a big difference in sound. Modelers do a good job getting a good tone But the latency and pick attack it’s another level.

Well, when dealing with Digital vs Tube, some players feel a difference but can't really put it into words. I am saying their experience might be real...it *could* be latency, as most tube snobs, when faced with a sound coming through a PA speaker with someone else playing probably can't tell the difference. As a player, it might be a big difference, though.
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Interesting. Maybe this is (at least) one of the reasons why modelling stuff always feels a bit weird to me. It's never the same as playing a real amp (tube or SS..'cause I love both of those.)
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

The latency of good modelers is in the 2-6 millisecond range. That's the equivalent delay of standing a foot or two further away from your amp.

I'm sorry, but you're not noticing that. It's in your head.

Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Why would I not notice it? There’s is latency in modelers. So it’s not
In my head.

Maybe some people can notice it and others can’t. If I play a plugin or my vypyr on whatever speed, something is not right.
 
Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

The latency of good modelers is in the 2-6 millisecond range. That's the equivalent delay of standing a foot or two further away from your amp.

I'm sorry, but you're not noticing that. It's in your head.

That is spot on. There is always some latency with any gear you use, you realise it or not and late modelers feel instant-ish under 10ms.

More than that, some (older) tube amps has a measurable latency or feel, depending on the circuit, making certain players nuts to record tight in time. It does not literally delay like processig zeros or ones in modelers but the attack or signal run-up where it reaches its peak can be easily more than 10ms. I can't name certain models because they vary a lot even in the same model range but I can remember of a certain modded Plexi we had around that was especially sleepy. It had great texture but it was extremely hard to play in time for a new player on it. We solved it with boosters that kicked the initial transient really hard so the amp got a much bigger kick from the start than it would get from a bare guitar signal.

For a fast response tube amp, JCM800 is a good example. It is well known of its edge. If you A/B it with a regular Plexi, you can feel the difference instantly.

Solid state amps have a more instant response in general. Very fast players with lack of tube snobism may prefer them to tube amps.

I'm not trying to generalise at all, I'd just say after having been doing it for more years than I'd like to admit, I could see a tiny little tendency (with exceptions of course). Everyone who can play well to the click plays spot-on through his own amplifier. A plexi guy tends to rush a little playing through an unfamiliar SS amp and a SS guy tends to play a little late through an unfamiliar tube amp in the first couple of minutes until the mind starts to compensate the difference.

So... If the modeling unit is well-made (does the AD/DA conversion and signal processing fast like it should) it is supposed to be not that different from playing the real stuff 3-4 foot away from the speaker.

Computer based stuff (Amplitube, BiasFX and the like) come as a completely different story as they depend on your computer and audio interface. The operation system (regardless of the actual platform) must be optimised for ultra-low latency, the audio interface must be able to operate with very little latency and the DAW must have a perfect delay compensation to place your recorded track exactly where it happened at the moment of tracking, relative to the background tracks. If any of these lack a little (for example the interface gives a false latency report or you have some resource hungry background app running on your computer) you can easily end up in the latency issue hell.
 
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Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

Why would I not notice it? There’s is latency in modelers. So it’s not
In my head.

Maybe some people can notice it and others can’t. If I play a plugin or my vypyr on whatever speed, something is not right.
Do you notice the added delay if you step a foot further away from your tube amp? Sound travels slower than I think most of us realize.

I'm not saying there's nothing different about the feel of modelers, because they're not always perfect, but the latency isn't the issue unless it's really bad outdated technology.

Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk
 
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Re: Tube amp vs modeling. Is there latency?

I think that at this point it's more about the placebo effect.

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