Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

[Lewguitar]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

No doubt good tones are to be had with all the new software out their. I just don't like the tech side of it. No interest in computers, presets, patches, effects, firmware updates etc. Same reason I don't own a PC, gaming console etc. I'd get rid of my smartphone if I could. Now, I'm not a luddite...I respect the technology. I just have no interest in learning or utilizing it.

That's the problem with modelers. You do have to dig deep and learn how to create your own tones. I threw away all of the factory presets on my Mustang III...all except the basic amp models.

I base my new tones on the plain, unadorned amp models that are included with the Mustang III modeling amp. I add effects to that and choose the speakers I want to emulate and adjust the "sag" and tone and gain and what not.

It takes a little time and it's hard for a guy like me who is from an older generation than most of you.

But if I can do it, you guys who grew up on this stuff can do it.

It's worth it. And, like it or not, it is the future of guitar.

 

[Surgeon]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

I will say, early digital stuff was as bad as the worst SS amps. But that had to be developed before we got to where we are today.

It's not like I'm out there trash-talking the modeler stuff but I nonetheless have to be honest: My general opinion of modelers comes from my experience with a friend back when I was a university student (so between '99 and '02). He had one of the first generation Vettas and, while I was the first to tell him how cool it was that he was able to dial so many different sounds from one single amp, in the back of my mind I couldn't help but reflect on how bad all those different tones were compared to pretty much everything else it was supposed to sound like.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

It's not like I'm out there trash-talking the modeler stuff but I nonetheless have to be honest: My general opinion of modelers comes from my experience with a friend back when I was a university student (so between '99 and '02). He had one of the first generation Vettas and, while I was the first to tell him how cool it was that he was able to dial so many different sounds from one single amp, in the back of my mind I couldn't help but reflect on how bad all those different tones were compared to pretty much everything else it was supposed to sound like.

In today's world, where technology makes a quantum leap every year or two, 2002 was a long time ago.

These amps have improved immeasurably. They might be 10X better now.

And not just the sound. The FEEL has improved tremendously.

 

[Diego]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

If making amplifiers was as profitable as making cellphones, imagine where we'd be now?

All that R&D money into guitar amplification. I'd love to see that.

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

If making amplifiers was as profitable as making cellphones, imagine where we'd be now?

All that R&D money into guitar amplification. I'd love to see that.

The best amps have already been made. What is and has been happening is companies are trying to make solid state amps sound as good. This is a good thing in that solid state amps can offer a very wide spectrum of sounds in smaller packages. It's just old farts like me that won't yet let go of that real tube sound.

 

[Surgeon]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

The best amps have already been made. What is and has been happening is companies are trying to make solid state amps sound as good. This is a good thing in that solid state amps can offer a very wide spectrum of sounds in smaller packages. It's just old farts like me that won't yet let go of that real tube sound.

Man I should hope so, It's been 15 years!!! Even I have gotten better in that time...

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

The best amps have already been made. What is and has been happening is companies are trying to make solid state amps sound as good. This is a good thing in that solid state amps can offer a very wide spectrum of sounds in smaller packages. It's just old farts like me that won't yet let go of that real tube sound.

Who's deciding "best"? Cripes guys... at 49, I'm no spring chicken here. But there have been a TON of amazing amps since the Fenders of the 60s and Marshalls of the 70s. Regarding the Marshalls, there are amps that can get those tones at sane volumes and that are a multitude of orders more reliable. Technology and innovation marches on and will continue to do so.

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

Who's deciding "best"? Cripes guys... at 49, I'm no spring chicken here. But there have been a TON of amazing amps since the Fenders of the 60s and Marshalls of the 70s. Regarding the Marshalls, there are amps that can get those tones at sane volumes and that are a multitude of orders more reliable. Technology and innovation marches on and will continue to do so.

I completely agree.

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

You guys that are dismissing modeling really need to hear a Helix it Axe FX II that's been dialed in by somebody who knows what they're doing.

I've dabbled with modelers off and on over the years out of curiosity, but have always been a bit of a tube amp snob. But not anymore. Modeling has finally gotten to the point that it sounds as good as the real thing. I've got my Helix dialed in well enough that I have a couple of my tube amps up for sale. Don't get me wrong, I'm keeping 3 of them; my VTM120, my JVM, and my Triple Rec Reborn. I still feel that they serve a purpose for me. But, my other tube amps? Well, they were redundant before I got my Helix, now they're even more redundant.

And in all reality, if I get back into playing in a band again, I'll probably be using my Helix. The tube amps will just be for screwing around at home or recording. The Helix really does sound that good.

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

How about a tube amp using just the Mustang modeling section? Put a tube preamp in the front in, run the signal through the modeling section, pick it up directly out of the modeling section and run it into a 6L6 power amp? Also might want to add a bypass so you could run pure tube. The XDs and X2s all use SS preamps. Something like this:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1Rv9pHpRHPEQlc5RldrOTNteGM
If I try this I will run the first stage of the 12AX7 into the modeling section out of the modeling and into the second 12AX7 stage and then into the Power amp.

This afternoon I did a modified version of step 1 and now have a Mustang 1 with a tube preamp bypassing the Mustang SS preamp. Still using it's SS power amp and have all the effects and link to Fuse working. Have a noise problem that needs to be fixed, probably the result of frayed wires and funky solder joints because I rushed the mod out of curiosity.

 

[Diego]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

The best amps have already been made. What is and has been happening is companies are trying to make solid state amps sound as good. This is a good thing in that solid state amps can offer a very wide spectrum of sounds in smaller packages. It's just old farts like me that won't yet let go of that real tube sound.

Honestly, I don't think the best anything has already been made.
I refuse to dismiss technology in the name of yesteryear's nostalgic romanticism.

Everything is getting better and better, and nobody can even guess what we'll be playing through in 15 years.
Tube amps will still be revered for the same reason big block engines with carburetors are still praised, but how good will the alternatives be?

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

Sometimes when your amplifier, seemingly lacking in provocation, redplates and takes out a couple of power tubes for no apparent reason, you kind of wonder how much you'll miss tubes.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

How about a tube amp using just the Mustang modeling section? Put a tube preamp in the front in, run the signal through the modeling section, pick it up directly out of the modeling section and run it into a 6L6 power amp? Also might want to add a bypass so you could run pure tube. The XDs and X2s all use SS preamps. Something like this:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1Rv9pHpRHPEQlc5RldrOTNteGM
If I try this I will run the first stage of the 12AX7 into the modeling section out of the modeling and into the second 12AX7 stage and then into the Power amp.

This afternoon I did a modified version of step 1 and now have a Mustang 1 with a tube preamp bypassing the Mustang SS preamp. Still using it's SS power amp and have all the effects and link to Fuse working. Have a noise problem that needs to be fixed, probably the result of frayed wires and funky solder joints because I rushed the mod out of curiosity.

Well in most cases one tries to not muddy up the sound before or after the digital model so it accurately models what it is supposed to be modeling. Putting a tube out front means that you can overdrive the input tube with a pedal, but most modelers can model that effect anyway. I'm not trying to be critical though, it is your amp to experiment with.

The Super Champs and the discontinued Marshall JMD1 use tube power amps. The advantage of using a tube power amp with a modelling amp is that you get a real interaction between the power tubes and the speakers through an output transformer, which is a big part of the "feel" and the picking dynamics of real tube amps. The expensive modelers emulate this through IRs in their cab sims. With a tube power amp you don't need to design a bunch of complex IRs and cab sims.

Anyway carry on.

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

Well in most cases one tries to not muddy up the sound before or after the digital model so it accurately models what it is supposed to be modeling. Putting a tube out front means that you can overdrive the input tube with a pedal, but most modelers can model that effect anyway. I'm not trying to be critical though, it is your amp to experiment with.

The Super Champs and the discontinued Marshall JMD1 use tube power amps. The advantage of using a tube power amp with a modelling amp is that you get a real interaction between the power tubes and the speakers through an output transformer, which is a big part of the "feel" and the picking dynamics of real tube amps. The expensive modelers emulate this through IRs in their cab sims. With a tube power amp you don't need to design a bunch of complex IRs and cab sims.

Anyway carry on.

You are obviously correct. This is just a curiosity amp. I will say however that with a few hours of playing and tweaking with Fuse I am finding I do prefer the tube preamp. The twin model works much better. Low to medium overdrive models are noticeably better but distortion models are about the same.

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

How about a tube amp using just the Mustang modeling section? Put a tube preamp in the front in, run the signal through the modeling section, pick it up directly out of the modeling section and run it into a 6L6 power amp? Also might want to add a bypass so you could run pure tube. The XDs and X2s all use SS preamps. Something like this:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1Rv9pHpRHPEQlc5RldrOTNteGM
If I try this I will run the first stage of the 12AX7 into the modeling section out of the modeling and into the second 12AX7 stage and then into the Power amp.

This afternoon I did a modified version of step 1 and now have a Mustang 1 with a tube preamp bypassing the Mustang SS preamp. Still using it's SS power amp and have all the effects and link to Fuse working. Have a noise problem that needs to be fixed, probably the result of frayed wires and funky solder joints because I rushed the mod out of curiosity.

You could accomplish the same thing by running a processor and an amp together with the 4CM (4 cable method).

And the old Line 6 Spider Valve and Spider Valve Mk II kinda did that as well. The DT series is similar, but has no preamp tubes.

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

Sometimes when your amplifier, seemingly lacking in provocation, redplates and takes out a couple of power tubes for no apparent reason, you kind of wonder how much you'll miss tubes.

Very true, but modeling setups aren't without their faults either. And like anything made by humans, they can go haywire. So it's still a good idea to have a backup of some sort. Fortunately these days, a suitable backup can be something as simple as a SansAmp Fly Rig or an AMT pedal and a few effects pedals and a little pedalboard poweramp.

 

[NeedForPower]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

You could accomplish the same thing by running a processor and an amp together with the 4CM (4 cable method).

And the old Line 6 Spider Valve and Spider Valve Mk II kinda did that as well. The DT series is similar, but has no preamp tubes.

Last night made final mod to the Mustang I. Decided that the two pairs of op amps at the front end going into the modeling section are relatively tone neutral. Guitar input thru op amps into modeling section picked up the signal at modeling output (LOUT and LOUTG pins 41 and 43 on 50 pin interface connector) ->(this bypasses the Mustang pre and power amp section) put a standard 1/4" guitar input jack on it. Plugged it directly into Maggie style 12AX7 - 6L6 amp and works great. And in the end what I have is a Fender Mustang effects processor that is easily tweak-able via Fuse. Bought the Mustang as a brick at swap meet for $25, found and fixed the problem then started monkeying around. So for $25 and a couple hours work I have a little amp rig that is a gas.
Thanks to all who commented on this little project, all were considered and contributed to getting me to the configuration that I ended up with.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

Weirdest experience I had gigging with my modeler was playing outside last summer.

The heat from the sun turned my control panel screen black and it stayed that way until it cooled off.

I couldn't read a thing.

That's it though.

Otherwise, my experience both on the gig and at home with my Mustang III combo amp has been wonderful.

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

Lew, when I have had to play outside with a POD I always use something to shade the device. It helps with the temperature, and it makes it easier to read the screen.

I've joined the Helix club, but it is "in transit". Anticipation is mounting.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Tube Amplifier Be Gone!!!

I put a white towel over my Fractal AX8 in the sun. I know where the switches are and what they do, and it remains cool.