Tweed vs Marshall
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CapoFirstFret
New member
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
Marshall: Eric Clapton and John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, etc
Tweed: Danny Gatton, Neil Young, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, ...
the marshall was more rock and roll, while the tweed (59 Bassman is what you're looking for) is more roots rock and country
Marshall: Eric Clapton and John Mayall's Bluesbreakers, Jimi Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, etc
Tweed: Danny Gatton, Neil Young, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers, ...
the marshall was more rock and roll, while the tweed (59 Bassman is what you're looking for) is more roots rock and country
Corbic
New member
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
While comparing an old tweed Fender amp and a Marshall amp in a store, I found they were actually alike in many ways. The tweed amps have the best overdrive of all Fender amps in my opinion, and killer cleans too. Its crunchy, but still doesn't have the EL34 crunch of a Marshall amp. But the Marshall cleans have nothing on the tweed Fenders. And remember the different tubes(6V6 and 6L6 in Fenders, EL84 and EL34 in Marshalls) and components. If I could have the choice of just one amp it'd probably be a '59 Bassman because of it's great cleans and near-Marshall crunch.
While comparing an old tweed Fender amp and a Marshall amp in a store, I found they were actually alike in many ways. The tweed amps have the best overdrive of all Fender amps in my opinion, and killer cleans too. Its crunchy, but still doesn't have the EL34 crunch of a Marshall amp. But the Marshall cleans have nothing on the tweed Fenders. And remember the different tubes(6V6 and 6L6 in Fenders, EL84 and EL34 in Marshalls) and components. If I could have the choice of just one amp it'd probably be a '59 Bassman because of it's great cleans and near-Marshall crunch.
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
The very first Marshalls were an exact copy of the 5F6-A 59 Bassman amp..
The very first Marshalls were an exact copy of the 5F6-A 59 Bassman amp..
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
The circuts are very very similar...there are some differences in some values and some of the actual components are different...chassis, transformers, etc...
STRATDELUXER97 said:
The circuts are very very similar...there are some differences in some values and some of the actual components are different...chassis, transformers, etc...
Armotron
New member
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
From my Edana (JTM 45) i can get Tweed Bassman tones on the bright channel... and an unbelieveable overdriven marshall tone on the normal channel. The best of both worlds IMO. Tweed i think of more of a snappy lively tone, when I think of marshall... I think of grainy mids and a sweet... sweet, yet roaring overdrive. Just flowing sound.
From my Edana (JTM 45) i can get Tweed Bassman tones on the bright channel... and an unbelieveable overdriven marshall tone on the normal channel. The best of both worlds IMO. Tweed i think of more of a snappy lively tone, when I think of marshall... I think of grainy mids and a sweet... sweet, yet roaring overdrive. Just flowing sound.
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
I Knew someone was going to do this....Ok...Marshall used an aluminum chassis,the phase was reversed from the Bassman,the amp was setup to run on 16 ohms impedence through 4x12 speakers....Different transformers(RS or Hygrade surplus)....Otherwise the circuits were a direct copy of the 59 Bassman amp to keep the Brits from shelling out alot of cash for the expensive Fender amps...I haven't left out much...:nana:
the guy who invented fire said:
I Knew someone was going to do this....Ok...Marshall used an aluminum chassis,the phase was reversed from the Bassman,the amp was setup to run on 16 ohms impedence through 4x12 speakers....Different transformers(RS or Hygrade surplus)....Otherwise the circuits were a direct copy of the 59 Bassman amp to keep the Brits from shelling out alot of cash for the expensive Fender amps...I haven't left out much...:nana:
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
Im not trying to nit pick but the truth is that they were not exact copies and the differences are some of the biggest reasons that they do sound different...
STRATDELUXER97 said:
Im not trying to nit pick but the truth is that they were not exact copies and the differences are some of the biggest reasons that they do sound different...
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
Depends on what model? The JTM 45 and the 1987 Plexi series 50 watter don't sound alike at all and explain what you hear in your examples...The 2 amps are 'similar" as far as the circuits,but they sure don't sound the same..I've been tweaking Marshalls for alot of years and know alot about them all the way up to the 900 series...The 800 series in my opinion was the last of the greatest stuff Marshall ever made..! Pure and simple and great tone,without all the stupid switches and knobs...Plug in and rip with great tone!
Armotron said:
Depends on what model? The JTM 45 and the 1987 Plexi series 50 watter don't sound alike at all and explain what you hear in your examples...The 2 amps are 'similar" as far as the circuits,but they sure don't sound the same..I've been tweaking Marshalls for alot of years and know alot about them all the way up to the 900 series...The 800 series in my opinion was the last of the greatest stuff Marshall ever made..! Pure and simple and great tone,without all the stupid switches and knobs...Plug in and rip with great tone!
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
The truth is that a 59 4x10 Bassman and an original JTM-45 sounds different...there is a reason for it...the amps are very similar not exactally the same.
STRATDELUXER97 said:
The truth is that a 59 4x10 Bassman and an original JTM-45 sounds different...there is a reason for it...the amps are very similar not exactally the same.
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
I Know and I already listed those differences,but the JTM 45 is a copy of the 5F6-A 59 Bassman amp...And I say again "Copy"...Even Ken Bran and Marshall stated it in the big black Doyle Book "The History Of Marshall"...The Marshall copy of the 59 Bassman sounded different because they couldn't access the exact transformers and other components,and it sounds different by accident..To Marshall's favor that it sounded slightly different..
the guy who invented fire said:
I Know and I already listed those differences,but the JTM 45 is a copy of the 5F6-A 59 Bassman amp...And I say again "Copy"...Even Ken Bran and Marshall stated it in the big black Doyle Book "The History Of Marshall"...The Marshall copy of the 59 Bassman sounded different because they couldn't access the exact transformers and other components,and it sounds different by accident..To Marshall's favor that it sounded slightly different..
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St_Genesius
New member
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
I can find uses for Marshalls (though really, it's hard to talk about ONE Marshall sound...) but if I were somehow limited to only using a Bassman for the rest of my days, so long as I had a decent pedal to push it harder when I needed to, I could certainly make do.
I can find uses for Marshalls (though really, it's hard to talk about ONE Marshall sound...) but if I were somehow limited to only using a Bassman for the rest of my days, so long as I had a decent pedal to push it harder when I needed to, I could certainly make do.
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
Both the Bassman and the Marshall JTM 45 are phenomenal amps! Great with pedals also...
St_Genesius said:
Both the Bassman and the Marshall JTM 45 are phenomenal amps! Great with pedals also...
DesertRose
New member
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
Is tweed made to cater a design or it affects the sound too ?
Is tweed made to cater a design or it affects the sound too ?
Vasshu the humanoid typhoon
Unseen
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
Modelling....bah it sounds like..pooh
Well still does, it is kinda hard "emulating" fat powersupplies and and so on.
Modelling....bah it sounds like..pooh
Well still does, it is kinda hard "emulating" fat powersupplies and and so on.
kmcguitars
GuitarArtologist
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
Alright! I settle this once in for all.:cop: The early Marshall was Not a exact copy of a 59' Bassman,Rather a shameless Knock off to circumnavigate shipping Fee's.
Can we all agree on that?:33: Or is it better to say it was based on the 5F6-A Bassman circuit ? Or should I just do this?:foot: LOL!!
Alright! I settle this once in for all.:cop: The early Marshall was Not a exact copy of a 59' Bassman,Rather a shameless Knock off to circumnavigate shipping Fee's.
Can we all agree on that?:33: Or is it better to say it was based on the 5F6-A Bassman circuit ? Or should I just do this?:foot: LOL!!
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
John, I noticed that you edited your post after I stopped making posts...to be honest I didn't really want to argue about it anymore. The circuts in a 5F6-A Tweed bassman are very, very similar but as you know there are differences and those differenced to make the amps sound a bit different...no question about that. You are one of the guys on the forum that I really enjoy reading posts from, swapping PM's with and learning from as well. I meant nothing by disagreeing with you but the truth is you said in one of your posts that the amps were exactally the same...this is just not the truth. Since you brought up "The History of Marshall" by Michael Doyle I will ask you to flip (in the same book) to page 21 (thats right...I have that book too!) and read "Technical Comparison of Marshall JTM 45 and Fender Bassman. Starting at the top of the second page Steve Grindrod starts with a list of the differences between the 2 amps...he lists 8 differences including output and power transformers, chassis, speakers, phase issues, tubes, an extra bright cap, etc. To answer your questions that were added to your post after the fact the answers are below.
Im gonna say nothing about the first comment...as for the number of Marshalls I have fixed and or modded...
-I built one 5F6-A Bassman circuit from scratch them modded it after it was done, the mods included a few Marshall type tweaks then converting it to a 1x12 combo
-I converted one SF Bassman to a Marshall 1987 circut first with the Fender transformers, then with a Marshall output tranny.
-I took a 1979 JMP 100 watter that was a basket case and converted it to Plexi 1959 circut. Made it a 4 imput and converted it to all PTP, new board and all...the only mods I made to it were to add a post phase inverter master volume since it was a 100 watt.
-I built a different 1987 circut from scratch but used a 7027A power section from an Ampeg circut...that was a beast of an amp. My brother still has it!
-Built one 18 watt Marshall from scratch.
-I have also built 3 or 4 other Fender circuts from scratch as well as modded just about every amp I have ever owned. Except my Vibrolux (it's on a PCB and I like messing with PCB amps and my Sound City 50+ and it sounds great as is.
STRATDELUXER97 said:
John, I noticed that you edited your post after I stopped making posts...to be honest I didn't really want to argue about it anymore. The circuts in a 5F6-A Tweed bassman are very, very similar but as you know there are differences and those differenced to make the amps sound a bit different...no question about that. You are one of the guys on the forum that I really enjoy reading posts from, swapping PM's with and learning from as well. I meant nothing by disagreeing with you but the truth is you said in one of your posts that the amps were exactally the same...this is just not the truth. Since you brought up "The History of Marshall" by Michael Doyle I will ask you to flip (in the same book) to page 21 (thats right...I have that book too!) and read "Technical Comparison of Marshall JTM 45 and Fender Bassman. Starting at the top of the second page Steve Grindrod starts with a list of the differences between the 2 amps...he lists 8 differences including output and power transformers, chassis, speakers, phase issues, tubes, an extra bright cap, etc. To answer your questions that were added to your post after the fact the answers are below.
Im gonna say nothing about the first comment...as for the number of Marshalls I have fixed and or modded...
-I built one 5F6-A Bassman circuit from scratch them modded it after it was done, the mods included a few Marshall type tweaks then converting it to a 1x12 combo
-I converted one SF Bassman to a Marshall 1987 circut first with the Fender transformers, then with a Marshall output tranny.
-I took a 1979 JMP 100 watter that was a basket case and converted it to Plexi 1959 circut. Made it a 4 imput and converted it to all PTP, new board and all...the only mods I made to it were to add a post phase inverter master volume since it was a 100 watt.
-I built a different 1987 circut from scratch but used a 7027A power section from an Ampeg circut...that was a beast of an amp. My brother still has it!
-Built one 18 watt Marshall from scratch.
-I have also built 3 or 4 other Fender circuts from scratch as well as modded just about every amp I have ever owned. Except my Vibrolux (it's on a PCB and I like messing with PCB amps and my Sound City 50+ and it sounds great as is.
STRATDELUXER97
Stratoblaster Tone Meister
Re: Tweed vs Marshall
I always edit my posts if I think I've left something out.... ;o)
Great for you Christian...I Listed the differences that I Knew about...The circuit is still a copy of the 5F6-A Bassman....That was my whole point...No coincidence! I Love a challenge anyway and it's not a big deal really...The debate has no bearing on my end as far as the frienship.... ;o)
Read the top of page 17 in that same book and you'll see where my info is coming from.....I don't post unless I can back it up,as you know!
What we'll have to agree on here is this....The JTM 45 was a 59 Fender Bassman,but sounded different because it was built over in England using what they had available to them....Both amps are still the 5F6-A circuit...That's what I'm saying and the book says that also....I'll take the word "exact" out of this equation and that was an extreme statement since we're talking about accuracy here....You couldn't expect Ken Bran or Jim Marshall to say they copied the Bassman "exactly" but they did say it was the building ground for their own amp because several British rockers wanted a Bassman....That's their way of politely saying they copied the Bassman! Why wouldn't they copy the amp since they loved it so much? After that they did what alot of other guys do all the time and that is tweak some components...
Marshall got away with doing this,simply because Fender didn't have a patent on the same circuit....Fender got away from the cathode follower circuit from this point on and Marshall has stayed with it...If Marshall could have got the exact same transformers as Fender,instead of using surplus stuff,I'm sure they could have made the amp even closer to the Fender....The idea about using 4x12 cabs was from Pete Townsend who wanted bigger,and louder at the time.... LOL
I'm not disputing any tonal differences and both are phenomenal amps,I'm just saying that a Marshall started out as a 5F6-A 59 Bassman "Copy"....... ;o)
I always edit my posts if I think I've left something out.... ;o)
Great for you Christian...I Listed the differences that I Knew about...The circuit is still a copy of the 5F6-A Bassman....That was my whole point...No coincidence! I Love a challenge anyway and it's not a big deal really...The debate has no bearing on my end as far as the frienship.... ;o)
Read the top of page 17 in that same book and you'll see where my info is coming from.....I don't post unless I can back it up,as you know!
What we'll have to agree on here is this....The JTM 45 was a 59 Fender Bassman,but sounded different because it was built over in England using what they had available to them....Both amps are still the 5F6-A circuit...That's what I'm saying and the book says that also....I'll take the word "exact" out of this equation and that was an extreme statement since we're talking about accuracy here....You couldn't expect Ken Bran or Jim Marshall to say they copied the Bassman "exactly" but they did say it was the building ground for their own amp because several British rockers wanted a Bassman....That's their way of politely saying they copied the Bassman! Why wouldn't they copy the amp since they loved it so much? After that they did what alot of other guys do all the time and that is tweak some components...
Marshall got away with doing this,simply because Fender didn't have a patent on the same circuit....Fender got away from the cathode follower circuit from this point on and Marshall has stayed with it...If Marshall could have got the exact same transformers as Fender,instead of using surplus stuff,I'm sure they could have made the amp even closer to the Fender....The idea about using 4x12 cabs was from Pete Townsend who wanted bigger,and louder at the time.... LOL
I'm not disputing any tonal differences and both are phenomenal amps,I'm just saying that a Marshall started out as a 5F6-A 59 Bassman "Copy"....... ;o)
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