Unplugged...

[Gransen]

I very recently made a discovery about two of my guitars, and now I’m a bit puzzled…

When I'm sitting in front of the TV, I like to grab an electric guitar and not plug it in, and then just screw around. Sometimes doing something makes me want to put that guitar down and go pick up a different one in order to compare what I just did. Different necks, different picking hand position due to the bridge, whatever.

Something made me get a bit more serious about comparing guitars, and I decided to have a seat in front of my guitar rack. Normally at this point, I'm plugging in guitars. Not this time, just a quick check. Full chord strumming.

They are somewhat similar guitars as far as tonewoods are concerned, same strings. When unplugged during this quick check regarding something completely unrelated, I instantly noticed that one is noticeably brighter, and one is noticeably warm and creamier. Does this mean that one of them is naturally brighter sounding and the other is naturally warmer…??? If so, then it's the exact opposite when I plug 'em in…!!!

Guitar #1: PRS SE 7 (mahogany body, set maple neck, rosewood fretboard), with a stock fixed bridge, stock nut (tusq…???) and Seymour Duncan Invaders (passive). Thicker mahogany body (warm-sounding tonewood), and this one is the bright one.

Guitar #2: Ibanez S7320 (mahogany body, bolt on maple neck, rosewood fretboard), with a ZR tremolo bridge, stock locking nut, and active EMG’s (81 / 81-X). Super thin mahogany body, and this is the warm one!

There’s just no way to compare the sound when the guitars are plugged into the amp. They are two completely different animals. The EMG's in the Ibanez are much brighter, and totally compressed, meaning that although I get a volume change via picking / strumming strength, I don’t get any "tonal" change; whereas the Invaders in the PRS are much warmer with light picking / strumming, and brighten up to a nice full round tone with harder strumming.

So, knowing that I’m hearing "sound waves", and that pickups convert "string waves" (that are pretty much directly related to sound) into "electromagnetic waves," then the amp translates that back to sound through the speaker. If I’m hearing a tonal difference between these two guitars when they’re not plugged in, does that mean that the amp is then saying, "Here’s what I know about the difference that you’re hearing without me."

If this is true, then I might not like the EMG’s in my PRS because they’re at the top of my brightness-liking in the warmer Ibanez...and then I have a new way of determining which pickups to put in a guitar when it’s time for an upgrade!

Is that true…??? Can this be an effective way of helping to pick the right set of pups…???

 

[Gransen]

Re: Unplugged...

I did some experimenting, and I'll answer my own question...

YES.

And I'll add that "brighter and warmer" isn't the correct terminology. More like "smooth vs crisp," and even that isn't quite right.

I've known for a long time that electric guitars often sound different from one another when you play them without an amp, I've just never really focused on that. But when I start experimenting with each guitar "unplugged vs amped up," I can hear the difference between the guitars coming through the speaker. It's almost like a new set of terms needs to be invented to describe the "unplugged" tones, like smooth, crisp, and jangley...but those tones are coming through the amp.

The guitars that I was messing around with all have different pups, so it's the guitar and not the pups.

That being said, I'm going to say that matching "unplugged" electric guitar tones with the right pups is a valid way to select both the right guitar and the right pups for that guitar.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Unplugged...

The natural sound of an electric guitar is radically changed by the pickups and electronics in the guitar.

My brightest sounding guitar unplugged has a solid mahogany body with a maple neck . . . and is full and warm through the amp. My loudest sounding guitar unplugged (a semi-hollow) is soft spoken and sweet through the amp. I don't buy an electric guitar to play it unplugged. The only sound that matters in the end is what comes out of the speaker.

 

[Sun King]

Re: Unplugged...

Gransen, i commend you for "thinking outside the box" on this. Most requests for pickup choice usually start with, "So i have this guitar built out of tonewood XYZ." I've noticed a big difference too, on my unplugged electrics, mahogany vs ash, etc. Not only whether bright or dark, but also with perceived volume and sustain. The only thing necessary for this (subjective) method, is to own at least more than one guitar, so you can compare. I wonder if a well-trained ear could listen to a couple of unplugged sound clips, as a guide to pickup choice?

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Unplugged...

The natural sound of an electric guitar is radically changed by the pickups and electronics in the guitar.

My brightest sounding guitar unplugged has a solid mahogany body with a maple neck . . . and is full and warm through the amp. My loudest sounding guitar unplugged (a semi-hollow) is soft spoken and sweet through the amp. I don't buy an electric guitar to play it unplugged. The only sound that matters in the end is what comes out of the speaker.

Depends on the pickups. If the pickups have a flatter tonal response then the sound of the guitar comes through.

The body and neck effect how the strings vibrate. That’s what you hear unplugged.

That’s why sticking a humbucker on a Strat doesn’t make it sound like a Les Paul (and vice versa). Part of that is due to the scale length. Longer scales sound brighter.

So in the example above the PRS has a shorter scale. But the thinner body on the Ibanez effects the tone.

My Parker sounds the same unplugged and plugged in. That’s because it has bright sounding humbuckers. If I stuck a dark pickup in it would color the tone.

I wouldn’t buy a guitar that sounds bad unplugged.





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[GuitarStv]

Re: Unplugged...

The bridge has a big impact on the unplugged sound, as does the pickguard on a Strat.

Flatter tonal response pickups? Does such a thing exist? Guitar pickups are anything but flat response. They're almost always designed to highlight certain mid-range frequencies, and the vast majority of them have distinct peaks of sound output between 1 and 10 kHz.

Short of a few fully hollowbody guitars . . . I don't know if I've heard an electric where playing it makes me go "Yeah, I want some of this very quiet plinky sound!" That's why we use pickups rather than little mics on our electrics.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Unplugged...

Flatter tonal response pickups? Does such a thing exist? Guitar pickups are anything but flat response. They're almost always designed to highlight certain mid-range frequencies, and the vast majority of them have distinct peaks of sound output between 1 and 10 kHz.

The less wire you wind, the flatter the response. For low impedance pickups (as in real low z coils, not EMGs, which are regular hi z coils wired to a differential op amp) the resonant peak is shifted higher, and it’s often outside the standard audio range.

Pickups act like a low pass filter. Right before the upper frequency limit they have a resonant peak, and then the response drops off. Often the low end is emphasized too.

The more wire you wind on a pickup, the lower the resonant peak. Very overwound pickups like a JB have a resonant peak in the upper midrange. Something like gold foil or Filter’Tron will have a higher peak, with a lower amplitude, and sound more transparent.

Think about magnetic pickups made for acoustic guitars. They have lower output and often lower inductance.

Short of a few fully hollowbody guitars . . . I don't know if I've heard an electric where playing it makes me go "Yeah, I want some of this very quiet plinky sound!" That's why we use pickups rather than little mics on our electrics.

I remember back in the 80s picking up two Teles. One was a US Fender and the other a Mexican. The Mexican Tele was livelier sounding. It was brighter and had more twang. The US Tele sounded kind of dull and lifeless. Plugged in you could hear those qualities come through the amp. If I were buying one of them it would have been the Mexican model.



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[dpaterson]

Re: Unplugged...

I can smell the tonewood (discussion) from here... LOL!!!

Sorry. Couldn’t resist.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Unplugged...

The less wire you wind, the flatter the response. For low impedance pickups (as in real low z coils, not EMGs, which are regular hi z coils wired to a differential op amp) the resonant peak is shifted higher, and it’s often outside the standard audio range.

Pickups act like a low pass filter. Right before the upper frequency limit they have a resonant peak, and then the response drops off. Often the low end is emphasized too.

The more wire you wind on a pickup, the lower the resonant peak. Very overwound pickups like a JB have a resonant peak in the upper midrange. Something like gold foil or Filter’Tron will have a higher peak, with a lower amplitude, and sound more transparent.

Think about magnetic pickups made for acoustic guitars. They have lower output and often lower inductance.

Magnetic pickups for acoustic guitars are a terrible idea. That's why piezos have pretty much dominated the live industry, and proper mics dominate the studio.

I like underwound pickups, and have played original 60s gold foils, SD's Seth Lover humbucker, and a variety of low wind single coils. None of them sound like a flat EQ to me . . . they tend to be distinctively brighter in a pleasing hyped kinda way. The idea of getting a flat EQ from a pickup makes no sense anyway, we play through guitar amps . . . not high fi systems. Nearly all guitar amp speakers are heavily coloured and wildly uneven in frequency response (they almost uniformly display a mid range hump for example).

I remember back in the 80s picking up two Teles. One was a US Fender and the other a Mexican. The Mexican Tele was livelier sounding. It was brighter and had more twang. The US Tele sounded kind of dull and lifeless. Plugged in you could hear those qualities come through the amp. If I were buying one of them it would have been the Mexican model.

How many gigs would you play with the Mexican strat unplugged?



Acoustic sound doesn't matter, just what comes out of your amp. Now, acoustic sound might be an indication of what the guitar will sound like and aid in ideas for changing pickups . . . but it's always a bit of a crapshoot.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Unplugged...

Magnetic pickups for acoustic guitars are a terrible idea. That's why piezos have pretty much dominated the live industry, and proper mics dominate the studio.

Not if they’re made right. Bill Lawrence made some excellent air coil sidewinder acoustic pickups. Some of the DiMarzio acoustic pickups sound good too.

Piezo needs to be processed to not sound quacky.

I like underwound pickups, and have played original 60s gold foils, SD's Seth Lover humbucker, and a variety of low wind single coils. None of them sound like a flat EQ to me . . . they tend to be distinctively brighter in a pleasing hyped kinda way. The idea of getting a flat EQ from a pickup makes no sense anyway, we play through guitar amps . . . not high fi systems. Nearly all guitar amp speakers are heavily coloured and wildly uneven in frequency response (they almost uniformly display a mid range hump for example).

Except for the gold foils those aren’t underwound pickups. Try something wound around 4K

Also plug your guitar straight into a high z input on a console. Bass players are used to going direct.

If you had a flat response pickup, like on an Alembic guitar, what do you think it will sound like? Even through a guitar amp. It will sound very much like the guitar unplugged.

How many gigs would you play with the Mexican strat unplugged?



Acoustic sound doesn't matter, just what comes out of your amp. Now, acoustic sound might be an indication of what the guitar will sound like and aid in ideas for changing pickups . . . but it's always a bit of a crapshoot.

Read what I wrote. You’re too busy trying to be right. Lol

The unplugged sound carries over to the plugged in sound. Unless you’re using tons of distortion.

A guitar that sounds lively and resonant unplugged will always sound better plugged than one that sounds stiff and dead. Unless you like that kind of tone.

Old dead strings are a good example. They sound like crap both ways. Lol



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[Francois]

Re: Unplugged...

Gransen, I think I know what you mean. This happens and is normal.

For example my best soundnig guitar would be my Jeff Beck Strat (v.1)... when it is plugged... But when they are unplugged my old SG is sounding definitely better.
Just an example.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Unplugged...

Not if they’re made right. Bill Lawrence made some excellent air coil sidewinder acoustic pickups. Some of the DiMarzio acoustic pickups sound good too.
Except for the gold foils those aren’t underwound pickups. Try something wound around 4K

Also plug your guitar straight into a high z input on a console. Bass players are used to going direct.

If you had a flat response pickup, like on an Alembic guitar, what do you think it will sound like? Even through a guitar amp. It will sound very much like the guitar unplugged.

For the sake of argument, let's say I agree with you on this.

If I'm limited to unusually low wound guitar pickups under 4K to make my guitar's amplified sound like it's unplugged sound, I'm still not sure why the unplugged sound matters. Between humbuckers, p90s, and single coils that's like what . . . 98% of the electric guitar sounds that you'll hear recorded? I'm guessing that this is the case because the majority of people like to play guitars with very hyped and uneven sounding pickups. Then they plug them into very hyped an uneven sounding guitar speakers and get their own slice of mid-range that they're happy with.

They don't want to hear the flat, unplugged response of their guitar.

Read what I wrote. You’re too busy trying to be right. Lol

The unplugged sound carries over to the plugged in sound. Unless you’re using tons of distortion.

A guitar that sounds lively and resonant unplugged will always sound better plugged than one that sounds stiff and dead. Unless you like that kind of tone.

Old dead strings are a good example. They sound like crap both ways. Lol

As mentioned, I've currently got a guitar that sounds super bright when playing it acoustically but is rich and warm through the amp. I had a guitar that was really dark sounding acoustically and through the amp after changing the volume pot to a higher value it became painfully bright when plugged in. Through the amp these guitars both sound the opposite of how they sound acoustically. The unplugged sound of your guitar is an ingredient in the mix, but it's the sum of all the parts that matters in the end.

I don't deny that the unplugged sound of a guitar has an effect on what you hear from an amp. It certainly does . . . but it's just not all that important given the difference in sound that pickups, strings, wiring, speaker, effects, and amplifier make.

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Unplugged...

I don't deny that the unplugged sound of a guitar has an effect on what you hear from an amp. It certainly does . . . but it's just not all that important given the difference in sound that pickups, strings, wiring, speaker, effects, and amplifier make.

Explain why an SG and a Les Paul sound different even though they both use the same pickups and hardware and have the same scale length. [emoji6]

It’s not just the pickups, etc. you are hearing the sound of that guitar amplified louder.


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[GuitarStv]

Re: Unplugged...

Explain why an SG and a Les Paul sound different even though they both use the same pickups and hardware and have the same scale length. [emoji6]

It’s not just the pickups, etc. you are hearing the sound of that guitar amplified louder.

First of all, tolerances in most electronics used in guitars suck. Pretty good stuff is usually + or - 10 percent . . . so the 'same' values in two guitars can end up being 20% off from each other. The difference between a 550k volume pot and a 450k volume pot is very, very audible even though they're both the 'same'. This effect is exacerbated when your pots are off 10%, your capacitors are off 10%, there's a difference in the magnetic charge in your pickups magnet, there's a difference in the thickness and therefore capacitance of the wire used to wind the pickups, etc. Even the air pressure that you're playing your amp in will change the sound that you hear.

Ignoring that though, sure. Hell, even if you take two identical Les Pauls with the same neck profile, wood from the same tree, same electronics, pickups, scale length, frets, finish, strings, bridge, tuners, they'll probably sound a bit different. Wood is an inconsistent material. But swap pickups, electronics, hardware, amp settings, etc. and I guarantee that you won't be able to identify which one is which from the sound that comes out of the amp.

I'm not denying that different guitars sound different, but that the unplugged sound of the guitar matters all that much in the end . . . because you are never in a real world situation where all those many other variables are held constant.

 

[Sun King]

Re: Unplugged...

As mentioned, I've currently got a guitar that sounds super bright when playing it acoustically but is rich and warm through the amp. I had a guitar that was really dark sounding acoustically and through the amp after changing the volume pot to a higher value it became painfully bright when plugged in. Through the amp these guitars both sound the opposite of how they sound acoustically.

This statement is basically what the O.P. was saying originally, and I think we've all noticed this at some point. It's an interesting phenomenon, which would be great if that information could be used to our advantage in some way. So, our observations are not "incorrect", it's just, how do we explain it? Although I agree with a lot of your points as well! Kind of a science project, ya know?

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Unplugged...

I've known for a long time that electric guitars often sound different from one another when you play them without an amp, I've just never really focused on that.

I like this thread.

 

[Gransen]

Re: Unplugged...

I'm not denying that different guitars sound different, but that the unplugged sound of the guitar matters all that much in the end . . . because you are never in a real world situation where all those many other variables are held constant.

JB's in one guitar, Invaders in another. Put them on a clean channel, and it's like someone put a mic in front of them while unplugged and ran the mic through an amp...sort of. Yes, the pickups add something that's hard to hear without them. But all that they could possibly logically be doing is taking what actually is already there and modifying it via signal amplification.

All that pickups and amps do is modify what is presented to them by the guitar strings. If the strings ain't got that set of harmonics going due to the myriad factors involved, then the speaker ain't got that set of harmonics going.

The root of the original question was based on stuff like how one set of pickups can scoop the mids and flatten it out while another set of pickups will round out the tone better...thus making your point EXTREMELY valid. So much so that I'm careful to stray too far from that line of thinking. I honestly believe that pickups are the most important factor in an electric guitar's tone, with amps being the most important part of the QUALITY of that tone. The guitar itself is pretty much secondary. Have you ever seen the video of the official Fender cardboard guitar...!?!

That being said, and with an admission that I need to do more experimenting before I can say for certain, I'm going to say that there is ABSOLUTELY AND MOST CERTAINLY something to the idea of matching up a guitar's unplugged tone to the pickups. It's what I'm hearing - at least to some degree - and it makes sense.

Thanks for the input, everyone. I agree with Chickenwings, I like this thread!

 

[Aceman]

Re: Unplugged...

I have always said that to really understand a guitars potential, you need to listen to it acoustically, unplugged. That tells the real character of the instrument.

And passive electronics can only SUBTRACT from the tone that is there. They can't add anything that does not exist.. A guitar with anemic weak highs, highly amplified is really loud, but really crappy highs.

 

[Gransen]

Re: Unplugged...

I have always said that to really understand a guitars potential, you need to listen to it acoustically, unplugged. That tells the real character of the instrument.

And passive electronics can only SUBTRACT from the tone that is there. They can't add anything that does not exist.. A guitar with anemic weak highs, highly amplified is really loud, but really crappy highs.

Yeah, that's a really good way of looking at it: passive electronics can only SUBTRACT from the natural tone. I'm thinking of the term "attenuation" or "line loss" and how that applies to the transfer of energy from the guitar strings to the pickup coils. I'm not 100% certain if that's the term that applies in this case, because I dropped out of vocational school about 25 years ago, so what little I learned is just barely still there. (I now have stop, think and write Ohms Law down in order to figure out how to get current from voltage and resistance.)

BUT...and this is the way that I'm looking at the question...it's the RATIO of the loss. If the guitar has weak and anemic highs, and the pickups totally scoop the lows AND the mids but totally accentuate the highs, then you have a more balanced output. You can't ADD with passive electronics, but you can BALANCE THE OUTPUT with them.

I get that part. I was just wondering if I was out-thinking myself once again when I came up with this idea. It's one of my favorite things to do...

 

[Gransen]

Re: Unplugged...

DavidRavenMoon said...

Explain why an SG and a Les Paul sound different even though they both use the same pickups and hardware and have the same scale length. [emoji6]

It’s not just the pickups, etc. you are hearing the sound of that guitar amplified louder.

...To which, GuitarStv said...

First of all, tolerances in most electronics used in guitars suck. Pretty good stuff is usually + or - 10 percent . . . so the 'same' values in two guitars can end up being 20% off from each other. The difference between a 550k volume pot and a 450k volume pot is very, very audible even though they're both the 'same'. This effect is exacerbated when your pots are off 10%, your capacitors are off 10%, there's a difference in the magnetic charge in your pickups magnet, there's a difference in the thickness and therefore capacitance of the wire used to wind the pickups, etc. Even the air pressure that you're playing your amp in will change the sound that you hear.

Ignoring that though, sure. Hell, even if you take two identical Les Pauls with the same neck profile, wood from the same tree, same electronics, pickups, scale length, frets, finish, strings, bridge, tuners, they'll probably sound a bit different. Wood is an inconsistent material. But swap pickups, electronics, hardware, amp settings, etc. and I guarantee that you won't be able to identify which one is which from the sound that comes out of the amp.

I'm not denying that different guitars sound different, but that the unplugged sound of the guitar matters all that much in the end . . . because you are never in a real world situation where all those many other variables are held constant.

Having never done an actual blind study, I'm going to say that GuitarStv is making a really good point, but I lean more towards DavidRavenMoon on this one: there actually IS a difference in the overall tone of an SG vs a Les Paul running the same model pickups. I'm not a Gibson guy, so my experience is limited. I'm not truly capable of defending this opinion with absolute scientific fact, so I won't even try.

I believe that GuitarStv brings up a very good point about tolerances in guitar electronics, but why is it that "Les Pauls sound like a Les Paul, and SG's sound like an SG...???" They certainly aren't sorting the electronics at the factory by guitar model, are they...!?!

Also...and bearing in mind that I'd have to look up the formula's...when you start doing the math on "10% tolerance" on a capacitor, you end up with what my first semester electronics teacher said was an absolutely negligible amount for most practical applications; and yes, filtering frequencies was the name of the game. Resisters are a totally different ball game, because of Ohm's Law and the direct effect that resistance has on current, so those often require a tighter tolerance. Which makes your point about the pots valid. BUT, even then, it's not at all RADICALLY different going from 500K to either 450K or 550K. There's clearly a bigger difference between 450K and 550K, but it's still highly HIGHLY likely that the difference can be filed away as "Meh, whatever."

This is an opinion. Everyone's got one, and they all stink. Way ahead of you on that one. The reason for this opinion is that if there was a big enough difference, then guitar manufacturers would have tightened the belt another notch a LONG time ago due to complaints from the anal retentive customers we often tend to be. Plus, I can almost remember some this one from vocational school (and now we're up to third semester...rolled my car, got a DUI, coasted through the rest of the semester, failed, and dropped out), look at the frequencies that we're dealing with, and the effect of changing from 450K to 550K ohms. Then compare that to the human audible range AND sensitivity to changes. My first thought is that there's only a small percentage of people on earth who can pass a blind test on this one.

Think of bending notes. If you're just sitting there and it's like, "Okay, this is a C, and now it's a C#." Use your tuner, and a decent guitar player will hit it dead. Now start jamming. How close are you now...??? And can anyone in the audience really notice if you're a few cents flat or sharp, even if you hold that note for long enough for it to truly register in their brains...???

THAT is the level of difference between 450K and 550K ohms in a volume pot when talking about which frequencies are actually being combed out or left in. And THAT'S why they still put "crappy tolerance" pots in a guitar.

Again, I haven't done the math, but I did go to school (and have nothing to show for it), and this fits right in with what we were being taught about how much we should care about the tolerances of standard "solder-in" components when the frequencies aren't at, like, AT LEAST megahertz, and more like gigahertz and beyond.