valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

[Fender_Punk]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

I think as long as Marshall, Vox and Fender keep making tube amps, someone, such as Sovtek, Grove Tubes, or JJ will be manufacturing tubes. I don't have any fear in how long they will continue to be available, as new amps are always being made and the manufacturer needs someone to make tubes to stick in them.

I really hope Solid state doesn't persist in large amps. It's great for practise amps like the Roland Micro Cube or the Vox equivalent (can't remember the name). But for a stack, or even a gig-worthy combo, it's GOTTA be tubes!! There's no substitute for the airy, drool-inducing cleans or huge distortion!

Oh yeah, and tube amps don't need as many watts to match the volumes of the drums, so there's another reason to go tube, they're SO much louder!! (which is worth the extra weight).

 

[Pierre]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

I think as long as Marshall, Vox and Fender keep making tube amps, someone, such as Sovtek, Grove Tubes, or JJ will be manufacturing tubes. I don't have any fear in how long they will continue to be available, as new amps are always being made and the manufacturer needs someone to make tubes to stick in them.

I really hope Solid state doesn't persist in large amps. It's great for practise amps like the Roland Micro Cube or the Vox equivalent (can't remember the name). But for a stack, or even a gig-worthy combo, it's GOTTA be tubes!! There's no substitute for the airy, drool-inducing cleans or huge distortion!

Oh yeah, and tube amps don't need as many watts to match the volumes of the drums, so there's another reason to go tube, they're SO much louder!! (which is worth the extra weight).

That means nothing dude. The same wattage in tube vs SS will require the valve amp to be much bigger, and it'll still be less efficient. In the same package you could easily get more volume from SS componenets, with a suitably higher wattage rating.

 

[korovamilkdud]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Tube amp modern, or vintage. If I could afford a Mesa Triple Rec, beleive me I'd be all over it.

The new Marshall JVM looks appealing too though.

 

[Fender_Punk]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

That means nothing dude. The same wattage in tube vs SS will require the valve amp to be much bigger, and it'll still be less efficient. In the same package you could easily get more volume from SS componenets, with a suitably higher wattage rating.

And higher "crappy tone" rating. Honestly. I'd rather lug around a 50 lb tube amp that's rated for 40 watts and have an amazing tone that I nver get tired of than a 35 lb 150W SS POS that leaves me wondering what happened to the head room, and more importantly, TONE!

I'll take heavenly tone over the lacking SS amps and modelers even if it's less efficient. My bck may not thank me, but my ears, and audience will.

Like Zhang said earlier, it really is surprising that tube amps are WAY louder than SS on a watt-to-watt comparison. I've heard 15 and 20 watt amps that are louder than 100W solid state, and sound way better while doing so. As soon as I can afford it, I'm buying a 40W tube amp.

 

[Pierre]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

And higher "crappy tone" rating. Honestly. I'd rather lug around a 50 lb tube amp that's rated for 40 watts and have an amazing tone that I nver get tired of than a 35 lb 150W SS POS that leaves me wondering what happened to the head room, and more importantly, TONE!

I'll take heavenly tone over the lacking SS amps and modelers even if it's less efficient. My bck may not thank me, but my ears, and audience will.

Like Zhang said earlier, it really is surprising that tube amps are WAY louder than SS on a watt-to-watt comparison. I've heard 15 and 20 watt amps that are louder than 100W solid state, and sound way better while doing so. As soon as I can afford it, I'm buying a 40W tube amp.

Sure, but that's a different matter alltogether. Loudness wise, SS wins hands down because of that efficiency and size requirements.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but SS amps have a lot more headroom. That's why people started using transistors in the first place, when clean tones were desired. They go louder without distorting than valves overall.

 

[Fender_Punk]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Sure, but that's a different matter alltogether. Loudness wise, SS wins hands down because of that efficiency and size requirements.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but SS amps have a lot more headroom. That's why people started using transistors in the first place, when clean tones were desired. They go louder without distorting than valves overall.

On a watt-to-watt comparison, tube amps are usually 4 times louder per watt than SS. I see where you going with the efficiency aspect, but when I see someone bring they're tiny 50W SS amp on stage and barely outdo the drummer, I just laugh. I mean, looks alone, they just LOOK pathetic. I guess that's apt considering the tones they produce...

Also, IIRC, certain types of tubes break up at louder volumes, eliminating that problem of cleans distorting at loud volumes. Plus if you have a 100W tube head, you can have it at 3 or 4 and completely fill the room and maintain pristine cleans. Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but a) Fender tube amps are known and respected for their amazing cleans (as are AC-30s), and b) PAs can smply mic your amp at whatever volume it is and match it to the volume of the rest of the intrsuments.

Plus, IME, ever SS amp I've played dimed (which has ranged from my 15W Fender, to my friend's 30W Marshall, to another friend's 50W marshall to a 100W Crate) has broken up and became distorted, even on the clean channel.

I say SS should be used where it excels: small bedroom/basement practise amps.

 

[Pierre]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

On a watt-to-watt comparison, tube amps are usually 4 times louder per watt than SS. I see where you going with the efficiency aspect, but when I see someone bring they're tiny 50W SS amp on stage and barely outdo the drummer, I just laugh. I mean, looks alone, they just LOOK pathetic. I guess that's apt considering the tones they produce...

Also, IIRC, certain types of tubes break up at louder volumes, eliminating that problem of cleans distorting at loud volumes. Plus if you have a 100W tube head, you can have it at 3 or 4 and completely fill the room and maintain pristine cleans. Actually, correct me if I'm wrong, but a) Fender tube amps are known and respected for their amazing cleans (as are AC-30s), and b) PAs can smply mic your amp at whatever volume it is and match it to the volume of the rest of the intrsuments.

Plus, IME, ever SS amp I've played dimed (which has ranged from my 15W Fender, to my friend's 30W Marshall, to another friend's 50W marshall to a 100W Crate) has broken up and became distorted, even on the clean channel.

I say SS should be used where it excels: small bedroom/basement practise amps.

You're right. But you still don't get what I mean. The SS 100W amp will be much smaller, if well designed and WAY WAY lighter with MORE HEADROOM than a 100W valve amp. Sure it'll be less loud, but you could use a 500W or whatever. You're comparing Wattage to Wattage but it's irrelevant I think.

 

[Fender_Punk]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

You're right. But you still don't get what I mean. The SS 100W amp will be much smaller, if well designed and WAY WAY lighter with MORE HEADROOM than a 100W valve amp. Sure it'll be less loud, but you could use a 500W or whatever. You're comparing Wattage to Wattage but it's irrelevant I think.

I've already recognised where you're going with efficiency, but I still say tube. I think all musician's can agree that tone is important, and nothing beats the tone of tube IMO. Also you don't get a lush, heavenly feeling when playing through SS where as you do when playing through tube. Have your efficiency, I'll be rocking out on tubes as soon I can get my hands on them!!

Plus, I think once you get to 500W you're matching weight with 100W tube amps, as you would have to have the forced air fan cooling to keep it from overheating.

 

[PaulReedSmith]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Have your efficiency, I'll be rocking out on tubes as soon I can get my hands on them!!.

so you dont actually...own...a tube amp?

:bye:

 

[Fender_Punk]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

unfortunately. But I have work lined up that starts me in August and I have my eyes on a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe. I've used many tube amps in the time I've been playing, just haven't been forunate to own one yet.

 

[ginormous]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

The matter of "loud tubes vs. wimpy SS" has more to do with the preamp design and power supplies than anything else. SS guitar amps are notorious for using less capacitance in the power supply than tubes, thereby less "punch" (transient response/bass freq response). Think about it: all those cars, with the boomin' systems! They make up for the lack of voltage compared to home and stage units by adding power caps.

 

[ginormous]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Aphex? If it's from the 70s I somehow doubt it is digital

The Aphex Aural Exciter was an early attempt to add something perceived (marketed?) as "missing" from run-of-the-mill recordings of the time. The circuit design was jealously guarded, but it's been commonly accepted that it was based on analog technology.

As for digital recording, pulse code modulation technology was developed in the 70's by engineers from Sony, JVC and Philips. That's why the earliest digital masters were recorded on the Sony PCM-1601 encoding system, which used VHS tapes (invented by JVC) :nono: ! There were CD prototypes made by Philips as early as 1979.

As long as there is a market there will be a manufacturer.

If it costs too much to make, without enough profit at the point of sale, a responsible manufacturer will cut its' losses and turn to a cheaper way of doing things. After which the manufacturer will tell the market to go to h--l. Tube technology is more expensive than SS, and that's just the practical truth.

There's something to be said about using something that it doesn't take a EE to fix if it breaks down.

Repair technology and design engineering are 2 diff things. Any good repair guy will tell you that.

Duress from organized crime?

Crime puts stress on all economic and capitalist markets, from the retail end to the corporate side. Shoplifting, embezzlement, everything criminals do makes things more expensive for all of us.

All your posts seem to point toward the assumption that the quicker tubes are gone the happier you'll be. Were you shocked by tubes often as a child? :9:
Luke

As it turns out, I was electrocuted by an older sibling... twice. As for tubes, they can be more trouble than their (inflated) retail value.

 

[Pierre]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

I also prefer valve My amp is a valve amp, but my high gain distortion is pedal powered. I was just dismissing the fact that tube is louder (needs to be put in perspective) and that tube = more headroom (simply false, or it takes away THE main reason for SS components).

 

[johnny blackwater]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Playing through SS amps is like dating a fat chick! sure, you get a lot more ass to play with than a skinny chick, but......

 

[some_dude]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Understood and respected, Red. My point of view differs:

A gigging musician needs a certain amount of reliable, predictable "sameness"; for ex, B. B. King has been using Lab Series amps for years. Not one of Gibson's more spectacular designs, and yet he's made the room moan and sway with each bend of his string. A canvas is also reasonably predictable. Most of the time, they're white and blank.

He also uses a Fender Twin Reverb.....

Let's not confuse the romance of days gone by with the aggravation of being in a remote location, and having a 12AX7 or a 6550 crap out on you. Can't be artistic in silence, unless you're a mime. :earl:

Carry spares.

 

[some_dude]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

You're right. But you still don't get what I mean. The SS 100W amp will be much smaller, if well designed and WAY WAY lighter with MORE HEADROOM than a 100W valve amp.

100w is 100w, regardless of whether it's tube or solid state both amps will have equal clean headroom. The main difference is in the way they overdrive.

If you have 100w solid state then 100w is the max you ever want to run it at due to the fact that transistors overdrive in a really ugly fashion. That means that you'll probably run the amp down around 30w continuous so that you have enough headroom left so that when you pound on chords that have an open E string you won't overdrive the amp.

On the other hand, if you're running a tube amp you can set it so that you're running at a full 100w because if you do overdrive the tubes you really don't care. You can have it at or even above 100w continuous knowing that when you pound on a chords with an open low E string they'll simply overdrive in a musical fashion.

As for clean headroom....in theory if they're both set to stay perfectly clean they'll be nearly identical in terms of volume, but in reality the tube amp will be louder because you can risk overdrive.

Sure it'll be less loud, but you could use a 500W or whatever. You're comparing Wattage to Wattage but it's irrelevant I think.

You could. That's why (aside from jazz amps) most good quality solid state amps are 350w or more.... these are the amps that are actually meant to compete with 100w tube amps.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but SS amps have a lot more headroom. That's why people started using transistors in the first place, when clean tones were desired. They go louder without distorting than valves overall.

People started using transistors because they were cheaper. Jazz guitarists are the only ones who've clung to solid state in a big way, and even with them tube is more popular.

 

[aleclee]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Let's not confuse the romance of days gone by with the aggravation of being in a remote location, and having a 12AX7 or a 6550 crap out on you. Can't be artistic in silence, unless you're a mime.

Guess you've never had a SS or Modeling amp crap out on you. I had a SS amp literally go up in smoke during a sound check for a gig. I've also had a modeling amp require repair. While the vast majority of tube amp issues can be fixed by replacing a tube or a fuse, all too often a SS or modeler failure involves taking it in to the shop and waiting days (or weeks) for it to get fixed. If I'm gonna have a problem with an amp 10 minutes before show time, I know which kind I'd rather have.

Honestly I've had more problems with SS equipment than tube equipment. It is a guitarists responsiblity to have tubes on hand in case of an accident, just like it's their responsibility to have a set of strings, or guitar in case the high E string breaks.

Quoted because it bears repeating.

Combined, tube amps have 91.38% of the votes. I think it's clear which is better.

Wrong. It only tells us which is more popular. "Better" is a purely subjective term that is way to dependent upon individuals' tastes and priorities to have a definitive answer. The 8.62% of folks aren't necessarily wrong, they just see things differently. Some of 'em might be naive or have underlying assumptions that I don't share (e.g., the reliability issues I address above) but in the end, any poll is more about popularity than intrinsic quality.

You're right. But you still don't get what I mean. The SS 100W amp will be much smaller, if well designed and WAY WAY lighter with MORE HEADROOM than a 100W valve amp. Sure it'll be less loud, but you could use a 500W or whatever. You're comparing Wattage to Wattage but it's irrelevant I think.

And you're forgetting that those more powerful SS amps need much higher power speaker to handle all that juice. Guess what? All that weight you saved in the power section is more than offset by what are most likely heavier speakers.

 

[Pierre]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Good point on the speakers :laugh2: Didn't really think of that. Would they be that much heavier? I never messed around with cabs or such.

Good point screaming daisy. Those 100W of clean power (and perhaps 160 of distortion) will be louder than 100W of SS (or less if you don't want to run the risk of ODing it). But my point was that you could probably get a way higher watt to space/weight ratio with SS than with valves (well until I heard about the speaker problem that is). SS are also more reliable and as you said, cheaper. I'm using as an example a clean tone, not a clean-and-not-so-bad-if-it-distorts instance. Fender Punk said that valves = louder and more headroom, I was just pointing out that it's not always so, because there are a lot more to compare. I'm not defending SS or valves in any way, I think both have their uses and like alec I certainly don't think either is better, just more suited for me.

 

[PaulReedSmith]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

Seriously though...


we all know deep inside, that tubes are the only way to go right?

 

[Artie]

Re: valve/tube vs. solid state -- the battle continues

100w is 100w, regardless of whether it's tube or solid state both amps will have equal clean headroom.

Actually, thats not quite correct. SS and tube amps are rated the same way but don't work the same way. They're both rated at max power before clipping. But a tube amp is designed to be clipped, while an SS amp should never be clipped. In fact, with SS, 3db of headroom is considered normal. That cuts the power in half. So 100 watts of SS is like maybe 20 watts of tube. (I didn't pull out the calculator. You get my point.)

One other thing. I notice that folks are equating "solid state" with "digital modeling". They aren't exactly the same thing. For example, my H&K Edition Blue 60 is simply a solid state amp. It isn't a modeler. It just uses discrete transistors rather than tubes, and it sounds great.

Having said that, I prefer the sound of my friends H&K Edition Tube 20 . . . but with qualifiers. The tube amp definitely sounds better once you get it up to a volume where it can breathe. But thats generally much louder than I would normally play. (Bedroom wanker.)

Solid state seems to have the edge in certain conditions. Practice, low volume, and bass players. Tubes seem to cover the rest. And yes . . . I want my own tub amp.

Edit: I don't perform, so take what I say about amps with a grain 'o salt.