Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

[Toejam]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Vivian Campbell has said that early Dio was his black '77 (?) Les Paul with DiMarzio X2N.

But was the X2N available with chrome rails back then? I thought they were only black, and only in recent years have they made them with the option of chrome or gold.

 

[Toejam]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Thats a cool guitar! They sort of look like Schaller pickups with the wide chrome bars, but who knows...

No clue if they're Schaller or not. That Jackson was gone for a long time, but Vivian now has it back.

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Had a pic (can't find it), but here's what I got on those rail buckers:

Apparently a custom wound pickup made in very small quantities by an Birmingham UK Shop 'Jay Dee Guitars'. This one (not working) came out of Viv's Jackson Les Paul and was replaced at the DRL Shop.

More info here: http://jaydeecustomguitars.co.uk/history.html
http://www.robbincrosby.net/curt/vivpu2.jpg

http://www.robbincrosby.net/curt/vivpu1.jpg

JayDee = maker of Iommi's famous "SG"

FYI: robbincrosby.net is defunct now

 

[metalchurch79]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I remember seeing some of Tony’s guitars with these, I forgot all about those. Makes sense.

 

[Toejam]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Oh, yeah. I remember the Jay Dee pickups now.

 

[metalchurch79]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Im thinking his Bc Rich Ironbird had Jay Dee’s if Im not mistaken. There arent many pics out there of that guitar because I think it was around 1983 when he was starting to experiment with different guitars and amps.

Edit:
Im wrong it was a 1980 and had DiMarzio pups...
https://equipboard.com/pros/tony-iommi/b-c-rich-custom-ironbird

 

[Mincer]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I just watched the Dio show referenced above. I am a big Dio fan, but man, that show has some serious 80s posturing going on. I was surprised at how little Viv used his pinky for those fast parts.

 

[audiocheck]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Are you sure he didn't use his black Norlin Les Paul on those early Dio albums?

he used it on the Last in Line band album from last year with a pair of 59's. it sounds killer.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hi Folks.

Thanks (as always) for all the replies and input. Nice discussion going on here it would seem.

There's many posts I'd like to respond to. Instead of typing one LONG post (which, from what I gather, are a pain in the "you-know-what" to read) I'll reply on a post-by-post basis to those posts that are directly related to my query although this is NOT to say that the posts that I do not response to are not relevant to the overall discussion.

Are you sure he didn't use his black Norlin Les Paul on those early Dio albums?

he used it on the Last in Line band album from last year with a pair of 59's. it sounds killer.

I've no idea what he used on the recorded albums. I am, however, specifically after the tone on that video posted in the first post of the link (white Charvel with "who-knows-what" pickups). To update all that's going on (and those that have not read the entire thread): I'm awaiting delivery of a Dimarzio Super Distortion to try in one of my Jackson guitars as the general consensus seems to be that is the pickup in that guitar (at some point is used to have Invaders apparently). I do realise that there are many other factors that contribute to that "woody knarly" tone but most have been discussed on the thread already and it's just gonna upset people if I rehash the lot again!!! LOL!!!

Regards,

Dale.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I just watched the Dio show referenced above. I am a big Dio fan, but man, that show has some serious 80s posturing going on. I was surprised at how little Viv used his pinky for those fast parts.

Hello.

Thanks for watching. In spite of the sound and video quality of that poor aged video: it's my favorite. It was the first time I'd ever seen Dio (had Holy Diver and Last In Line on LP before that and then subsequently Sacred Heart and Intermission also on LP and all of the rest bought on VHS, CD, DVD, Blu-ray as the years have gone by). To me: there is "something" about that video/concert. It just has some type of "raw and live" energy and sound. Each song seems to flow effortlessly into the next one. Dunno. Cannot give you a reason why it "does it for me" so much. There's another live concert with very much the same type of vibe i.e. Live at Donnington 1983 which was also Vivian but this I've only got on CD. Once again: dunno. There is just "something" about them. And if anybody knows what it is or can tell what I'm talking about and explain it then I'm all ears (because I really don't know myself).

Don't get me wrong though: the overall picture is that "Dio is Dio is Dio". The stuff above is what I'm practising to peform (hopefully one fine day) and the tone that I'm after. But I have and do listen to EVERYTHING Dio. Rainbow, Sabbath, Heaven & Hell ("Bible Black" is unbelievable).

As far as his pinky is concerned (LOL!!!): the less he used it the better (for me)!!!. He certainly was "the man" back then (in my opinion). That stuff just flows but at the same time is kinda "raw" (again for want of a better word). Dunno. It's like it's all so "tight" but "loose" at the same time??? Dunno. (Sorry: using that word a lot in this post).

Thanks for the post.

Regards,

Dale.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Yes those are for modeling amps, so therefore are full range speakers that are made to impart the least amount of coloration to the tone. Not sure it would change that much since the stock speakers in a modeling amp should be made with the same intent. Changing speakers that color the tone, say V-30s, Creambacks, 75s, is probably not desired for a modeling amp since it is modeling the preamp, power amp, and cab/speakers. In a traditional guitar amp, changing the speaker is probably the biggest thing you can do to change your sound.

It may just be that the Code is a fine modeler, but not good at getting the specific sound you are looking for.

FWIW, yes, a resistor across the terminals will change the impedance of the speaker, but it also has to handle a minimum of half the wattage of the amp (a safety factor of 2X is a good idea, so the full wattage of the amp is preferred). The standard resistors that you see in circuits are 1/8 - 1/4 Watt. A 100W resistor looks like this and should be bolted to a heatsink.

Just to be clear, while the Code amps have a SS power section, they are not analog SS amps, they are digital modelers, so all the tone is developed in software, not analog components (not dissin' on them, I use a GT-1000 as my "rig" now days).

Based on some posts I've seen floating around it seems to be generally recommended that if you DO change the speakers in the CODE amps. for the "normal" Celestions that you don't use the cab. emulations. Could make sense based on what you're saying.

As noted on the thread: I like 'em (the CODE amps.) i.e. no complaints. They may be a contributing factor to my not getting my "God-like" tone but it's a process and starting with the pickups first I reckon.

As far as this resistor thing goes: I read somewhere last night that it makes no difference if you do this i.e. if you lower the speaker impedance. It was stated that any re-gain of power is just dissipated as heat. Is this indeed true???

Regards,

Dale.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

No not that that one! Not the SD-1 overdrive, the DS-1 Distortion.
Vivian said he was running a distortion into a cranked stock JCM800.

I'm such a tube snob that it is taking every ounce of self-control I have to not say, "Hey, man, what if your solid state amps are why you can't get that God-like tube tone you are seeking." but I won't say that.
Oops! Delete delete!

I really have no experience to make that comment from because my only experience with solid state was from 1998 to 2001 before it was any good. Then I bought my soldano astroverb and didn't need anything else.

By the way, if you don't mind a single-channel 18W EL84 amp that cleans up amazingly with guitar volume reduction/picking dynamics and you want the soldano sound for "cheap" (a relative term) look for a used astroverb on ebay.

I think they are no good with the gritty harsh stock Eminence speakers (but maybe I've never heard one broken in?) and they are boxy as a 1x12 combo, but through a 2x12 (or a 1x12) with a Vintage 30 or a Warehouse Guitar Speakers Retro 30 to tame the V30's high-mids it's like a mini JCM800 with just a bit more gain.

The astroverb is based on the SLO's crunch channel. Mike Soldano's design philosophy is for the tone to come from the preamp and not be a result of overdriving the power tubes, so it sounds perfect at all volumes- even at a whisper that would allow you to play with people sleeping close by.
If you can handle single channel, the one other feature lacking is that there is no effects loop for delay (or whatever).
In 2001 I bought the effects loop prototype (head) from Mike Soldano for $550 back when the astroverb 1x12 combo listed for $849! (without effects loop).

Hey StratMatt77.

Well it's a bit late NOW (re: the wrong pedal AND the rest of them!!! LOL!!!). But I did read somewhere that he used an SD-1 and a GE-7 into an unmodified JCM800 (which Dio apparently gave him) but never used both pedals at the same time. But that's just the problem: there are so many posts on so many different websites re: the gear that he used that it's impossible to tell which is correct and which is not. This being said: it would seem he changed guitars so often that they could ALL be correct but particular to a certain time period.

Do I want tubes again??? Dunno. Will decide and let you know after I've changed pickups (and then MAYBE speakers in the CODE amps.!!!).

Dunno if you saw my post re: changing the speakers in the CODE50 amps. to those new Celestion jobbys??? They're not available as yet though but nobody answered as to whether or not there are indeed alternatives (made by different manufacturers)??? Gut feel tells me it's worth waiting for them??? Dunno.

Regards,

Dale.

 

[devastone]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

As far as this resistor thing goes: I read somewhere last night that it makes no difference if you do this i.e. if you lower the speaker impedance. It was stated that any re-gain of power is just dissipated as heat. Is this indeed true???

Yes, if you put a resistor the same impedance as the speaker in parallel with the speaker, it does cut the impedance the amp sees in half and yes, 1/2 of the power goes through the resistor and is dissipated as heat, or, if you don't use a resistor rated to handle the power, it (the resistor) is quickly dissipated as smoke and the impedance goes back to just the speaker. So, yes, if your intention was to put a resistor in parallel with the speaker to get more power out (as sound), no, it will not help.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Yes, if you put a resistor the same impedance as the speaker in parallel with the speaker, it does cut the impedance the amp sees in half and yes, 1/2 of the power goes through the resistor and is dissipated as heat, or, if you don't use a resistor rated to handle the power, it (the resistor) is quickly dissipated as smoke and the impedance goes back to just the speaker. So, yes, if your intention was to put a resistor in parallel with the speaker to get more power out (as sound), no, it will not help.

Hello.

Thanks for that.

The intention was just to NOT LOSE power from the CODE50 amps. i.e. they output 50W RMS (apparently a little more) into 4Ω. If I put one of those new Celestion speakers in: they're 8Ω so I'm gonna lose power out hence the resistor idea (which, from what I now gather, ain't gonna work right???).

Regards,

Dale.

 

[devastone]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

No, it ain't gonna work, theoretically the same power going through the speaker with or without the resistor, in reality (not going to try to explain impedance vs resistance here), probably a little more without the resistor.

But again, if you are trying to use speakers to change the "voice" of the amp, speakers made for modeling amps are voiced to have "no voice" if that makes sense.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I think I've caught up now on the relevant posts (relevant to my quest anyway).

One last question (for now anyway):

SD Invaders!!! Is the Invader bridge pickup F-spaced??? And if NOT: WHY not??? If NOT: then what's the difference between the Invader neck and Invader bridge pickups???

I'm asking because I've been thinking about this Blaze issue. I mean to say: I think I'm fooling myself thinking it'll appreciate in value??? Or am I??? Dunno. But maybe it'd be better for me to actually play the (beautiful) thing and replace the pickups with Invaders and have done with it??? I can then put the Full Shred and JB (SH-4) from the Blaze into my white Jackson, order a DM SD neck for my black Jackson, and done and dusted. And if all of this don't work: gonna be having a MASSIVE garage sale!!! LOL!!!

Regards,

Dale.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

No, it ain't gonna work, theoretically the same power going through the speaker with or without the resistor, in reality (not going to try to explain impedance vs resistance here), probably a little more without the resistor.

But again, if you are trying to use speakers to change the "voice" of the amp, speakers made for modeling amps are voiced to have "no voice" if that makes sense.

Well lemme ask ya this question:

How MUCH power would I lose, do you think, by putting in 8Ω speakers??? Half, less than half, that type of thing. I mean: they're plenty loud as they are now with the 4Ω speakers (truth be told I've only opened them up on 10 about twice for the fun of it and they overpowered EVERYTHING including my PA so a LITTLE bit of loss wouldn't be the end of the word but defining "a LITTLE bit of loss" is they key here).

Only reason I'm thinking about changing the speakers is because I've seen one or two posts where it's been surmised that in order to keep the cost of these amps. down the sure fire way to have done this would have been to skimp on the quality of the speakers (they're not branded at all i.e. "no name brand" in all of the CODE amps.). Some that have actually done this i.e. changed the speakers to name brand full range speakers swear they're better and the "fight" between bass and tops. has all but disappeared (I can only assume this means more mids.).

Regards,

Dale.

 

[devastone]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Roughly half the power depending on the power amp design. But, that isn't a reduction in volume by 1/2, it's only ~3dB, which means, unless you are running the volume wide open (which is generally not recommended on modelers or SS amps), you may just turn the volume knob up a little more than normal, say from 1:00 to 1:30-ish.

To cut the volume in half, you would have to cut the power by roughly 10X, or down to 5W.

And yes, I agree on mfrs skimping on speakers and better speakers, even full range modeling speakers, may greatly improve the sound. It's just different kind of change than say running your Marshall JCM800 through a cab with G12T-75s vs a cab with V30s, that gives the amp a completely different voice.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

BTW, as a big Dio fan, I love his band Elf, too.

 

[LLL]

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

BTW, as a big Dio fan, I love his band Elf, too.