Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

dpaterson said:
Based on some posts I've seen floating around it seems to be generally recommended that if you DO change the speakers in the CODE amps. for the "normal" Celestions that you don't use the cab. emulations. Could make sense based on what you're saying.

As noted on the thread: I like 'em (the CODE amps.) i.e. no complaints. They may be a contributing factor to my not getting my "God-like" tone but it's a process and starting with the pickups first I reckon.

As far as this resistor thing goes: I read somewhere last night that it makes no difference if you do this i.e. if you lower the speaker impedance. It was stated that any re-gain of power is just dissipated as heat. Is this indeed true???

Regards,

Dale.
Click to expand...

I don't think regular guitar speakers would sound good in CODE. However adding speaker out for a normal speaker is easy mod, and in my experience real speaker with real guitar cab sounds much better than sims.

I think cab sims may be the most overlooked / hard things to model in amps. It's difficult, if not impossible, to get that "thump" because it's really a physical thing of the cab and speaker combo. Not just tone you can capture.
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

just get a DSL combo, a DMZ SD or a DD and you're done...
Viv's tone in dio days was the most generic tone ever...
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

@dpaterson: Personally I would not change the speaker in your Marshall Code, that will not get you closer to Vivian Campbell sound. This will only give you another sound out of the Code. Most modelling amps don't use an FRFR speaker, they use a custom speaker with internal EQ to compensate for the speaker response and the model amp/cab they want to emulate. Just have a look and there's a bunch using Celestion Seventy80 which is a guitar speaker, not an FRFR.
Anyway, if I were you I'll buy a real modeler (Eleven Rack, Helix, Kemper, Fractal) and a real FRFF speaker (monitor or PA). This will get your sound within a week, with the guitars you currently have.
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Man i cant believe this thread has gone on this long. All i know is this. Most metal/DIO fans HATE Viv's tone on these records. I, like the OP, have a soft spot for it as well. It was a tone of true young firecracker guitar player who wanted to play as fast as he wanted. Viv was super young when he did these records-early to mid 20s tops. All i know is that the Black Les Paul Deluxe he had routed for full humbuckers and I am almost certain that the neck pickup is an X2N. No idea what was in the bridge. Also, no idea what he used in the bridge pickups of those early San Dimas Charvel's he used back then for the first 3 Dio records.

I would also LOVE to know what pickups he used in the bridge position of that Les paul and in his Charvels from that time period.

We will never know what the tone was after these albums with his Kramer Nightswan....well...because he never recorded anything with these guitars. We didnt hear a recorded album from him till 1991 with Shadow King and by then, I think he had moved on to Tom Andersons.....and that record was terribly done AOR....
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.

OK. Gotta keep my posts short and to the point!!! LOL!!!

THIS (below) only occurred to me yesterday when I was listening to another Dio concert i.e. "Live at Donnington 1983" (don't get confused with "Live at Donnington 1987" as that's another guitarist and another guitar and of no consequence here):

I want ya all to please just listen to these two clips. The first is Vivian in the studio on the Holy Diver album (before the tour obviously). The second is Vivian at Donnington in 1983. The Donnington tone is exactly the same tone as the tone on that video at the beginning of the thread. That's the tone I'm after. And I can tell ya it's THAT guitar (the white Charvel) with whatever pickups are in it. You can easily hear the difference. The studio stuff wasn't recorded with that guitar I don't think (at least that seems to be the general consensus around here and I would have to agree). I cannot find a single pic. or video of the Donnington 1983 show but below also is a pic. taken from the Fresno show also in 1983 and GUESS WHAT??? See anything common and familiar??? And can you hear that "gnarly woody midrangey jangle"??? Totally different from the other almost "midrange scooped" (if I'm using the word "scooped" correctly anyway) of the studio albums and the other concerts (and other guitarists e.g. Craig Goldie and the other dude that came later).




Dio Fresno.jpg

Point is and to respond to all posts above (and a crass attempt to cut a long story short): I'm now more convinced than ever to start with the pickups (DM SDs and SD Invaders) and go from there. I can get that tone from my CODE amps. Of that I'm 99.9% sure. I don't think I'll get the "sanitised" studio tone from them though (not that it's something I want but just saying). Also not by any means saying that the pickups are going to be the "magic bullet" but I'm thinking it's at least a good place to start.

Will not change any speakers until I've changed pickups.

Heard too may bad reports about the DSL range I'm afraid. And not to mention the fact that I've already spent a little too much on CODE amps. And like I said: I really do reckon I can get that tone out of them. But time will tell (soon).

STLMTLHD79:

You posted while I was busy composing the above. Yeh. Kramer Nightswan II. Hence my Blaze. Dunno what I was thinking as my Jacksons, even with their stock pickups, come closer to what I'm looking for. As per this thread though: some agreement seems to have been reached re: the Charvel pickups i.e. Invaders first and at some point later DM SD. Will let ya know though (when I get my "God-like" tone!!! LOL!!!). (DM SD should be here next week).

As far as the thread is concerned:

I'm really appreciative of all of the input. And let's face it: pickups aside I could talk about Dio for the NEXT thirty years!!! LOL!!!

Thanks everyone.

Chat later.

Regards,

Dale.
 
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Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Sorry. Need to add the following (don't skip my earlier post above though!!!).

STLMTLHD79 said:
It was a tone of true young firecracker guitar player who wanted to play as fast as he wanted.
Click to expand...
This makes all the difference. The sheer energy. Just take a look at the new stuff nowadays. I also watch the likes of Judas Priest, Arch Enemy, the list goes on. But you know what I've noticed: as fantastic as these bands are there's something missing to me. It's almost as if the guitarists are just up there playing to themselves and the rest of the performance seems to feed off of this. I was trying to describe this to somebody the other day and the best I could come up with was this: if you put a piece of glass or perspex between the Judas Priest stage and the audience then that's what it feels like watching them. Even the interaction between Halford and the audience seems a bit "pushed" or "staged". And were it not for Ms. White-gluz I could say the same thing about Arch Enemy. I could even say (to a lesser extent) the same about Craig Goldie with Dio. By contrast: just look at the energy that Vivian had at those concerts!!! Makes a BIG difference. Other bands that come to mind with this type of energy are AC-DC (back in the day anyway) and Whitesnake (also the earlier years). Matter of fact: in those years even the DRUMMER interacted with the audience and got them going (good 'ol Vinnie there). Alright: Jimmy was Jimmy!!! LOL!!! But he enjoyed himself nevertheless. Who knows. Maybe it's just that we're in a different era or something. Maybe it's just me. Admittedly: I've never had the privilege of seeing these acts live so maybe I'm wrong and talking out of turn. But the DVD's are uninspiring. The music is fantastic but the "performance"??? Take the pyro. and other effects out of the mix of these acts and... But 1983/1984 Dio/Vivian pushes me over the edge every single time!!! There's just something raw, flowing, and uncut about those performances. Almost as if they're kinda "loose" as opposed to the "sanitised tightness" of the new stuff today (and I really do like a lot of the new stuff today i.e. just saying that it's not the same).

And one thing is for sure: Dio himself never lost this or HIS energy right up until the last!!! This no matter HOW miserable the other band members appeared to be (Mr. Iommi comes to mind at this juncture i.e. he never looked "happy"!!! LOL!!!).

Regards,

Dale.

P.S.

You ever see Dio having to actively encourage the audience to "stand up and shout"??? Nuff said!!!
 
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Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hi Dale,

I don't know at all if you've tried anything related to real or virtual "cable capacitance" since my post 25. My weeks are way too busy to allow me long and repeted attempts to help. I've not even read all the answers posted in this thread until now (sorry about that).

Thinking twice about it, I've said to myself that a capacitor next to a radio emitter (the "bug" plug of your AKG) might create parasitic interferences. I've also thought that IF Marshall Codes include cab modeling, the heavy EQing possibly related to it might "hide" the subtle mid enhancement due to stray capacitance. I've the experience of such a "deafness" with some digital modelers, that I use rather extensively in various contexts when I don't play one of my analog rigs.

So I'm curious to know if you've put a low value cap between hot and ground of your guitar(s) output jack plug and what it did (or not).

A new "good luck" to you anyway. :-)
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Just listened to the two sound clips you posted (from Holy Diver album and from the live recording).

IMO nailing the exact feel of his (fingers) vibrato is more crucial to his tone than replicating his rig.

And yes you may enjoy a pickup swap. You've got good recommendations.
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Maybe you just need that X2N in the bridge + cranked JCM800 + cab with speakers he was using at the time (I would be interested to know what. Always thought they were v30, but if they weren't yet around...)

Honestly I have to say one big obstacle here may be the CODE. While it may be able to closely emulate the tone, you seem that accurate about it it's probably not close enough.

Try it with proper guitar cab (switch to head version or mod?) and I suppose you'd get quite a bit closer.

Pickups don't really have that much effect with modeling amps as usual tube front end.
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.

In response to the above three posts.

I'm pretty sure there's a L-O-T going on to get the tones (either one of them) not least of which is his skill.

I sure do have some good recommendations. As I said: am gonna fit the DM SD in a Jackson first and then see. If that works: Invaders in the Blaze next I reckon.

Is everybody sure that he JUST used a JCM800 and a OD pedal on the studio recordings??? If so: does that mean the amp. was micd. up or something else??? Somebody posted a video earlier on in the thread and in that video it would appear that at some stage (not sure exactly at which stage) he sure wasn't shy to use a lot of rack mount stuff (processors and effects and the rest so far as I could tell from the video). Sure be interesting to get some FACT on this.

As far as the pickups and modelling amps. are concerned: I cannot comment and will have to wait and see I guess. But I am 100% sure that I have three guitars and two of them have "scooped" midrange this based on the absolutely AWEFUL sound I get from this amp. sim. software i.e. even with amp. sim. software (even using IRs) I can hear the "missing" midrange in those two. The software at least eliminates any issue with the CODE amps. for the sake of comparison anyway.

The rest of this post is in response to freefrog (so you don't have to strain yourselves and read the rest of the post!!! LOL!!!).

freefrog:

I've not done the tests with the caps. as I don't have caps. of those values i.e. only noticed afterward you are talking about pF and not uF (I have caps. lying around of your "garden variety tone caps." is all). But I'll get some and try.

However and since your post and your videos I've done some testing. The results will probably mean a lot more to you than me but here goes (not in any particular order). But I definitely think you're onto something here too (pickups aside).

I daisy chained a few guitar cables together ending up with different lengths (direct into the amps,). BIG difference from my wireless system. Seemed to lose input (output from the guitars) so had to dial distortion up a bit. But definitely some more mids. (not enough though but a definite increase). I'd have to say a fuller sound with less tops and less bottoms.

This one is interesting. I have a Radial Studio Reamper. I plugged a guitar wireless receiver into that and from there out to the amps. ALMOST the same type of result as above. Not quite sure what goes on with a reamper (other than that it converts from line level to instrument level). Dunno. It seemed to "tame" the bottom and and top end and lift mids. (again only slightly).

One thing that I've not mentioned but with all of the above this could be playing a part (I don't have the answer though). My wireless receivers have a "volume" pot. and from what I gather this allows you to sort of "sweep" output levels from mic. (minimum), instrument (I assume when it's at around 12 o'clock i.e. in the middle) and line-level (when it's on full). The CODE amps. are very sensitive to this control. When on full: loads of distortion but it becomes muddy and even fizzy (depending on the amp. settings). When in the middle: lose distortion and unfortunately sustain but gain a lot of clarity. Mic. level (minimum) cannot be used i.e. not enough output. In all cases though: definitely a "thinner" sound than with instrument cables (mids. drop and bass and particularly treble come up). I'm wondering if there's maybe some type of impedance mismatch between these receivers and the CODE amps. Is that possible??? Here's a link to the exact setup (specs. below on the page): https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/akg-sr-40-flexx-receiver-with-gb40-guitar-bug-transmitter

One other thing that gives me a subtle but audible difference in tone: ensuring that my LAST pedal in a chain (just before the amps.) is a buffered bypass pedal. This also seems to make a difference i.e. seems to tame some harshness and retain some mids. (although as I say it's rather subtle i.e. nothing like the cable experiment above).

From what I'm gathering here: these amps. are a little more "flaky" than tubes and far more susceptible to these little anomalies.

So there you have it (so far).

Matter of interest: given that I have 0.047uF and 0.022uF caps. lying around can I not connect a few of them together to get to your PF range (for testing purposes)???

Regards,

Dale.
 
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Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

dpaterson said:
freefrog:

I've not done the tests with the caps. as I don't have caps. of those values i.e. only noticed afterward you are talking about pF and not uF (I have caps. lying around of your "garden variety tone caps." is all). But I'll get some and try.

However and since your post and your videos I've done some testing. The results will probably mean a lot more to you than me but here goes (not in any particular order). But I definitely think you're onto something here too (pickups aside).

I daisy chained a few guitar cables together ending up with different lengths (direct into the amps,). BIG difference from my wireless system. Seemed to lose input (output from the guitars) so had to dial distortion up a bit. But definitely some more mids. (not enough though but a definite increase). I'd have to say a fuller sound with less tops and less bottoms.

[...]

Matter of interest: given that I have 0.047uF and 0.022uF caps. lying around can I not connect a few of them together to get to your PF range (for testing purposes)???
Click to expand...

Hi again Dale,

Your results with daisy chained cables are understandeable, albeit not totally on par with my experience through analog gear and although it doesn't give a clear idea of the stray capacitance involved. IME with tube amps, it starts to be really noticeable @ 20ft / 6m of cable (900pF). Now, some guitar heroes play with 66ft/20m or 99ft/30m of cable and the tone of their passive PU's is drastically altered if there's no buffer in between.

Regarding capacitors: putting two of the same value in series divides their capacitance by two. You'd have to put 10 to 20 0.O22µF caps in series to reach a "realistic" capacitive value. Now, 5 of them in series would give you the same capacitive load than 99ft/30m of cable, FWIW. :-)
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I haven't kept up with Viv's tone over the years...how does he differ now in Def Lep?
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Mincer said:
I haven't kept up with Viv's tone over the years...how does he differ now in Def Lep?
Click to expand...
I honestly don't know myself i.e. never bothered with them.

Don't think I've ever listened to him with Whitesnake either to be honest (don't know even if there is any footage or audio around anywhere).

Regards,

Dale.
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Seems to me the biggest factor in Campbell's tone was his use of a Boss Graphic for a Boost pedal. His tone sounds like a 2203 or 2204 with a Graphic hitting it in front.
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

dpaterson said:
I think I've caught up now on the relevant posts (relevant to my quest anyway).

One last question (for now anyway):

SD Invaders!!! Is the Invader bridge pickup F-spaced??? And if NOT: WHY not??? If NOT: then what's the difference between the Invader neck and Invader bridge pickups???

I'm asking because I've been thinking about this Blaze issue. I mean to say: I think I'm fooling myself thinking it'll appreciate in value??? Or am I??? Dunno. But maybe it'd be better for me to actually play the (beautiful) thing and replace the pickups with Invaders and have done with it??? I can then put the Full Shred and JB (SH-4) from the Blaze into my white Jackson, order a DM SD neck for my black Jackson, and done and dusted. And if all of this don't work: gonna be having a MASSIVE garage sale!!! LOL!!!

Regards,

Dale.
Click to expand...

Invaders are only one spacing because the pole pieces are huge and capture the whole string within its magnetic field. The neck version is less hot. The tone of the Invader is warm and dark, a lot of bass and low mids. The Full Shred is brighter with more highs and high mids.
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Toejam said:
Invaders are only one spacing because the pole pieces are huge and capture the whole string within its magnetic field. The neck version is less hot. The tone of the Invader is warm and dark, a lot of bass and low mids. The Full Shred is brighter with more highs and high mids.
Click to expand...
Found the solution thanks to one or two people on my other threads. They’re called Synyster Gates Invaders (working from my iPad at the moment so dunno how to copy and paste a link but just look for my other two threads and links are there). That’s if I can still get them from SD. Will know comes Monday I guess. These would be for my Blaze. I reckon the DM SD is gonna sort out my black Jackson real nice (as in “Dio/Viv” nice).

Regards,

Dale.
 
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Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

I'm pretty sure the Synyster Gates Invaders are just regular Invaders with different colored pole pieces, which you can order them from the Custom Shop with the colored pole pieces just like everybody else. They have huge pole pieces for regular bridges or trems, the poles are not spaced apart any differently since the strings will align over them no matter what.
 
Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

Hello.

Nope. Synyster Gates Invaders are (were???) definitely available in an F-spaced version. Just Google “Synyster Gates Seymour Duncan” and you will get a link to an article on SD’s website (sorry I cannot post the link at this time as noted above).

Regards,

Dale.
 
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