watts and volume

[JCM900MkIII]

Re: watts and volume

"Stop trying to think for me"

"It must be because you are dutch" (who started filling in... )


Thinking a 60 person venue needs P.A. is madness.
Please tell me which instrument (usually) isn't loud enough to reach everyone in the room/area?


Maybe you should read the english version of : ISBN 90-70160-76-5 by R. Beckmann (or a similar work)
You'll find out you are wasting lots and lots of energy and possible wages.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: watts and volume

"Stop trying to think for me"

"It must be because you are dutch" (who started filling in... )


Thinking a 60 person venue needs P.A. is madness.
Please tell me which instrument (usually) isn't loud enough to reach everyone in the room/area?

The singer...

even then its the drums that set the minimum required volume...

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: watts and volume

Rather than let the PA do All the heavy lifting for the guitar amps, I like to let it do some, but not all of it. Somewhere around 30% amps and 70% PA. That way, you get spread, but your amp is part of the total mix. This lets the amp breathe more, and yet still gives the soundman control of the mix.

Amps shouldn't be cranked all the way up in 99.9% of situations because they get to sounding ratty when up too high, but having amps idle so the PA can do ALL the loud-making is just as lame.

70% is still the heavy lifting we are still talking about doing the same thing though.... If we have to move a 350 pound drunk off the dance floor and i make you carry 70% of him your doing the heavy lifting

 

[JCM900MkIII]

Re: watts and volume

I thought you didn't want to argue for the sake of argument?

I asked for an instrument.

You mentioned the singer because you know a few bands that have singers that don't use amplification?
Yes of course the singer get's amplification.

And a half decent drummer knows how to play dynamically (loud and/or soft).
Just like most of us guitar players (at least the ones playing tube amps) learn to play dynamically.

Drummers who only have an on/off switch might wanna practice some more, before giggin'

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: watts and volume

Nice one :lmao:. Tell that to the 100s of thousands of people visiting dance events every weekend though. The volume over there seems too far exceed that of many a death metal band I have seen for the past 10 years.

you busted me trolling again! Its that kind of day

 

[MrTondo]

Re: watts and volume

I decided to post here just because I'm Dutch.

That will be all thank you.




PS Because I am Dutch I want to say something completely different now and have the final arguement here: a 100 watt amp puts out about 90 kcal per hour to your speakers. In the same time you use up about 240 kcal just to play according to this calculator. So forget the PA or amp hook up your guitar to yourself and start producing some noise!

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: watts and volume

I thought you didn't want to argue for the sake of argument?

I asked for an instrument.

You mentioned the singer because you know a few bands that have singers that don't use amplification?
Yes of course the singer get's amplification.

And a half decent drummer knows how to play dynamically (loud and/or soft).
Just like most of us guitar players (at least the ones playing tube amps) learn to play dynamically.

Drummers who only have an on/off switch might wanna practice some more, before giggin'

Vocals are an instrument... probably the first instrument ever developed by mankind and certainly older than guitars...

I mentioned it because if you have a singer... you have a PA... if there is a PA whose spread and throw is better than my cabs I will most definitely use it.

A 4x12 is still a narrow beam of sound... if you crank your lunch box up you will kill the people in front of you and the people on the sides and in the corners will listen to the vocalist through the PA...

The crowd loves it when you belt out the first few opening riffs to paranoid and then the drummer breaks out the jazz brushes so he can be quiet.... Dynamics is playing soft when the song calls for playing soft... not playing soft all the time so you who cant be bothered to use a PA can be heard.

 

[El Supremo]

Re: watts and volume

And a half decent drummer knows how to play dynamically (loud and/or soft).
Just like most of us guitar players (at least the ones playing tube amps) learn to play dynamically.

Drummers who only have an on/off switch might wanna practice some more, before giggin'

Dynamics are certainly important. But what if it's time to rock and every hit has to count? Drums sound very different depending on how you hit them, where you hit them and yes, how hard you hit them.
There's not many singers around who would top a Grohl, Bonham or Ward volumewise when they were rocking out.

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: watts and volume

70% is still the heavy lifting we are still talking about doing the same thing though.... If we have to move a 350 pound drunk off the dance floor and i make you carry 70% of him your doing the heavy lifting

Well, that's true, but when you consider that the PA has two sides, you're really talking about thirds. I just think it sounds better to include the amps in the equation rather than the PA being the sole source of guitar sound. That's usually a recipe for thin crappy tone in every corner of a small venue (<250). When the amps do a third of the spread themselves, the PA gets to amplify a much better tone to start with.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: watts and volume

Well, that's true, but when you consider that the PA has two sides, you're really talking about thirds. I just think it sounds better to include the amps in the equation rather than the PA being the sole source of guitar sound. That's usually a recipe for thin crappy tone in every corner of a small venue (<250). When the amps do a third of the spread themselves, the PA gets to amplify a much better tone to start with.

Depends on the PA really... Its not unusual for us to use side fill.. its also why many pa cabs are trapezoid shaped so the can be an array and fill the corners.

Not to mention there are plenty of clubs where the house sound man will force you to point your amp across the stage so you dont mess with his mix.

 

[Bludave]

Re: watts and volume

Actually I think Stage volumes have come down considerably in the last 10 years or so. A lot of touring bands are using 30 to 50W amps and are miking everything and running it all through the PA. This allows the monitors to have all the instruments and voices so it is a better way to hear what is being played by all the musicinas in the band. The volume is not ear splitting and it is easier to hear what every one is playing. UIt works really well and most importantly it is better for your ears overall health. I recently saw EC playing at Madison SQ. Garden with one small amp & it wa all being managed through the PA. Easy on the ears, and easy on balance.

 

[El Supremo]

Re: watts and volume

Iron Maiden played through 50W Marshall heads (JMPs and JCM800s) throughout the early 80's. If headroom isn't an issue, 100W is kinda redundant to me. 100W isn't that much louder anyways.

 

[IMENATOR]

Re: watts and volume

better is not measurable

Oh yes, there is better, much better and way better! Just joking

 

[IMENATOR]

Re: watts and volume

Download the demo version of Eminence's Designer software. The online help includes a good deal of information in a comprehensive manner, it includes a good discussion of loudness, not jsut power and decibels but also how much the speaker excursion changes as trying to achieve a louder sound.

 

[allbutromeo]

Re: watts and volume

I saw a cool test in I believe it was Guitarist Guide to amps. The tested several different amps with a db meter at 1m awarded from the amp, the 30w 2x12 ac30 and 40w 1x12 Hot rod deluxe were both louder than the 100w plexi full stack they tested.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: watts and volume

I saw a cool test in I believe it was Guitarist Guide to amps. The tested several different amps with a db meter at 1m awarded from the amp, the 30w 2x12 ac30 and 40w 1x12 Hot rod deluxe were both louder than the 100w plexi full stack they tested.

Of course they were cause its a BS test... at minimum they should have used the same cab and speaker with each amp. A ton of the stacks volume energy is going over the top of the mic, at 1 meter the mic is only hearing a couple of the speakers anyways. Even more so than this is that a speakers efficiency has more to do with volume than the watts the amp puts out.

Keep in mind watts are not a measurement of sound but literally of heat.