What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

[zionstrat]

I've been showing off the Coaxe powered build in previous threads, but wanted to circle back to a lucky accident that happened along the way-

I knew that the coaxe pups + big mahagoney slab was going to be thick and I like to thin out sounds for rhythm- I was looking for something like a strat 2 position. So I included a HooP option for the center position, combing both coaxe pups.

Per the diagram, it's a variable hoop- this diagram shows the phase reversal, pot and cap for the bridge pup in 3rd position (green and white tapped leads are swapped)- When combined with the neck, there is definite HooP effect-


But here's the weird part- I didn't include the cap when I strung it up- I alligator clipped different caps into the circuit to see what worked best and surprisingly, I found I absolutely love the sound without a cap at all!

With a capacitor, the HooP effect was there, but relatively mild-

However, without the cap, it sounds like I've built a massive high pass circuit- I can roll practically all of the bass off, but keep a nice thick top end and I want to know what's going on? (it's a great, great way to roll off the thickness).

My first thought was that I was somehow rolling off the neck pup, however, a screwdriver tap test confirms it still on full- Plus the HooP is on the bridge, not the neck.

And now it get's weirder- The Hoop circuit is part of the tapping switch, not the PUP selector- So I can keep the Hoop on and change pups and the biggest surprise is how good these unplanned sounds are!

In these combinations, a middle pup is combined with one of the coaxe pups in the traditional 2 and 4 position- They are thick, but slightly quacky- some nasal attitude mixed with thick.

Since i don't understand how the HooP is working in with the Neck and Bridge combo, I can't even imagine how these 2 and 4 positions are being semi-Hooped. But boy is it good-

So, I would appreciate guru input- What is this circuit actually doing?

I would like to recreate it on future builds, but I want to understand what I am doing first.

Thanks as always!
ZS

Coaxe thread for Background-
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...-P90-pup-and-it-s-not-a-PRail&highlight=coaxe

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Bump-
I doubt I'm the first person whoever encountered this sound- GURUS, please help!

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Wish I could help. Glad you found cool sounds that way though.
And I'd be interested to learn what's going on too.

 

[Artie]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

It took a bunch of research and reading, but by "HooP", do you mean "Half-out-of-polarity"?

Edit: Even I sometimes get caught in the phase/polarity trap. :guilty:

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Thanks Artie, that's it-

I mainly use Half out of Phase on teles- by combing 2 pups out of phase with a capacitor, the sound is similar to the 2 position on a strat.

In this case, I reversed phase and added a pot to vari the effect, however I left out the cap-

Without the cap, I expected the thin, nasal out of phase sound that we all know from out of phase wiring- But instead the circuit is acting like a high pass in middle position and I would like to understand why this is happening.

Thanks for taking a look-
ZS

 

[Artie]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

I'm looking it over, but slowly. Haven't been feeling well lately. Getting old.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

I'm looking it over, but slowly. Haven't been feeling well lately. Getting old.

Buddy, there's no way that old is going to impact you. You diagnosed all pups in series in a thread that I still don't understand. I think you could give away 70% of your surplus brain power and still be ahead of most of us

 

[Jacew]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Sorry, it's very hard to understand what you're meaning, and that very much partial diagram doesn't help much...

So I included a HooP option for the center position, combing both coaxe pups.

When you mean half out of phase, is the cap wired in parallel to other pickup? And do "combining" here mean pickups are wired parallel?

Per the diagram, it's a variable hoop- this diagram shows the phase reversal, pot and cap for the bridge pup in 3rd position

Is that pot wired in parallel between second pickup, so you can dial it out? Or how it is specifically wired?

And doesn't Coaxes have multiple ways of wiring them internally, how they are wired (parallel, in phase, out of phase, series?)

There might be some language barrier, but full wiring diagram could help a lot...

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Jacew- Thanks for looking at this and here's some more diagrams-

It is a very complex build and coexe pups have lots of tap oriented wiring, but for the sake of understanding what's going on, I'll just cut out everything but the basics -

Here's a simplified Half out of Phase with single coils-
1. The phase on the bridge coil is flipped
2. The pot/cap allows you to dial in the HooP effect- I don't understand the theory, but the cap is supposed to keep the circuit from going 180 out of phase and somehow holds it around 90 degrees. It sounds very strat position 2 quacky instead of thin out of phase.




Here's what I actually wired-
1. Phase is flipped and pot is in same location
2. But no cap




So when I look at the totally simplified circuit, it appears to me that-
1. It should be totally out of phase because there is no cap- so the sound should be thin, out of phase
2. And seems like the pot would act as a volume on the bridge pup

Instead, the sound isn't out of phase at all, and I don't think the bridge is being attenuated at all when I turn the pot- The sound is the opposite, it sounds like a bass roll off.

Any chance that the thinned out schematic shines light on what is going on?

Thanks again for looking at this-
ZS

 

[freefrog]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

I really don't claim to be a "guru" but here is my hasty take.

The pot between bridge pickup and ground increases the resistance of this pickup. If a 500k control is used with a 6k pickup, for example, the pot will give to this pickup a total DCR of 506k...

This enormous resistance... "resists" to the signal: it lowers the volume by something like 20dB, as if this pickup had a volume pot set @ 2,5/10 (for a linear pot). [EDIT: it also changes the EQing of the pickup more than a lowered volume control so take this analogy with a grain of salt: the key of the "mystery" discussed here might be in this changing EQ...]

This pickup with its volume @ 25% is out of phase with another pickup whose volume is full up: it's hardly an OOP tone.

When the "variable OOP" pot is lowered, OOP progressively increases and the bass diminishes.

In other words, in my understanding, the circuit works more or less as if we had two pickups OOP in a Les Paul, one pickup being full up and the other with its volume control more or less lowered...

I'll try to post a 5spice simulation later if time permits.

FWIW (= my two cents).

 

[Artie]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Part of my problem in figuring this out is I can't seem to find the actual wiring code of the pups themselves. I'd really like to know exactly what colors go to which windings on the pups.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Part of my problem in figuring this out is I can't seem to find the actual wiring code of the pups themselves. I'd really like to know exactly what colors go to which windings on the pups.

Glad you asked Artie- figuring these pups out was 50% of the design- They are 4 wire, entirely non-traditional, tapped, coil within coil design and each pup is wired as follows:

1. Black = untapped hot
2. Green = tapped hot
3. Red = untapped out
4. White = tapped out

There is no access to the coil connection- it's hardwired within.

I have a dedicated tap switch that provides combinations of Black in Red out for the overwound sound and Green in and white out for a much cleaner brighter tone.

So I love to explain the coaxe pickup because it does so much, but I'm pretty sure that the tapping isn't part of this unusual sound because I applied the partial HooP only to the tapped Green to White leads of both pups. In other words, the tap selector selects Green and White in the HooP position- For the sake of figuring this circuit out, I am treating the pups as if it only wired Green to White.

Sidebar-Because there is a separate pickup selector, the other interesting thing is that this circuit impacts the coaxe + coaxe described above, but also impacts combos with the middle pickup in the regular 2 and 4 positions.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

I really don't claim to be a "guru" but here is my hasty take.

In other words, in my understanding, the circuit works more or less as if we had two pickups OOP in a Les Paul, one pickup being full up and the other with its volume control more or less lowered...


FWIW (= my two cents).

Thanks Freefrog! I never would have imagined bass roll off from this pot or less than 180 out of phase- I don't understand the theory, but will pull out my SG tonight and see if the vols give me a similar effect-

Much appreciated!

 

[Jacew]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Freefrogs explanation what your wiring is doing is accurate.

The half-out-of-phase thing? It has to be wired so that one pickup is out-of phase within itself and other on phase to really be "half-out-of-phase", to my understanding. Pot and cap cannot affect that.

Unless, if by half-out-of-phase you mean cutting the signal of other pickup lower, like you're doing in that wiring diagram (what Freefrog explained). That's still completely out-of-phase, but other pickup is just overpowering one with more resistance.

It's the now uneven (and out-of-phase) parallel coils, that's producing the "strat-like" tone.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Freefrogs explanation what your wiring is doing is accurate.

.

Thanks JaceW-

Assuming that we're dealing with EQ interaction between pups, then I image this is a very rare (and lucky) combination and I doubt it would be useful elsewhere.

So when I'm after the same effect in the future, I will just do a bass roll off tone pot because it's predictable and I know why that works. And I'll keep HooP with cap for the for the quackier sound.

But I'm so happy with this sound in this build, I'm happy for the accident, and again I appreciate this focum- one of the few places to get great feedback!

Cheers!
Zstrat/Mickey

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Also, here's a short HooP overview that explains the regular circuit that has a cap-
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/22967-mod-garage-the-bill-lawrence-5-way-telecaster-circuit

 

[Artie]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

They are 4 wire, entirely non-traditional, tapped, coil within coil design and each pup is wired as follows:

1. Black = untapped hot
2. Green = tapped hot
3. Red = untapped out
4. White = tapped out

Unfortunately, to my "techie" thinking, this doesn't help. What's the difference, for example, between "hot" and "out". Normally, they're synonymous. And where's the ground? When I think of a tapped coil, I think of a hot, (which is the output), tap, (the middle of the coil), and ground. Is there an actual diagram of that pickup somewhere?

Also, here's a short HooP overview that explains the regular circuit that has a cap-
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/22967-mod-garage-the-bill-lawrence-5-way-telecaster-circuit

Unfortunately, that article isn't that great. It's not even good. I wouldn't normally be so anal about the use of "guitar speak", as in using phase for polarity, or input jack, when they mean the output jack. But in a technical article, they should get it right. RW/RP stands for Reverse wound/reverse polarity. Not reverse phase. They describe HooP as being either 90 or 270 degrees out-of-phase. It's neither. It's half amplitude, reverse polarity. That would be a completely different sound than 90-deg's out-of-phase. I wish I had some easy way to demonstrate this.

Actually, maybe I can. Using my Scarlett 2i2 and Reaper, I might be able to make a couple files. I'll try this when I'm feeling better.

End of rant.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Sorry Artie,
I learned wiring like plumbing- in's outs and I confuse my EE buddies all the time- thanks for the patience and here's some questions-

1. I love the HooP sound and install a lot of them and have used that article to explain what's what- I would really appreciate a better explanation if you guys can bring it down to my level.

2. Here's how I believe the Coxe work (it works for wiring purposes)-

1. Black = untapped hot = This is the full length start wire for the center coil
2. Green = tapped hot= This is the start for the center coil that taps in with less turns than #1
Coils connect within the case
3. Red = untapped out= This is the full length end wire for the outer coil
4. White = tapped out= This is the shorter tapped end of the outer coil

If I understand why the HooP with no cap rolls off bass correctly, I'm guessing the complexity of the coaxe pup may have a lot to do with the wonderful EQ shift.

But I only have 1 other set of coaxe, so I expect this circuit will not be all that valuable in the end-

Thanks again and hope you are feeling better fast-

 

[Artie]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Thanks again and hope you are feeling better fast-

Thanks man. I'll try to get a better explanation soon. I've been meaning to do this for a long time.

I've got a hiatal hernia that's trying to eat me alive from the inside. I've got 10 cm's of my stomach above the diaphragm. That's about the size of a softball.

 

[freefrog]

Re: What does a partial variable Hoop sound like and why? Gurus needed

Thanks Freefrog! I never would have imagined bass roll off from this pot or less than 180 out of phase- I don't understand the theory, but will pull out my SG tonight and see if the vols give me a similar effect-

Much appreciated!

You're welcome.

I really lack of time to dig the theory behind your happy accident but here is something that I can tell: I've currently four guitar here that I've left or tried temporarily with HOOP or OOP capabilities (LP, Tele, Strat, Superstrat) and the typical "out of phase" tone was / is not present to the same degree with each instrument. It really depends on the individual specs, "output" and place of the pickups more than on their wiring IMHO.

ArtieToo, I humbly and sincerely wish you to get better ASAP!