Robert Delahunt
Showmasterologist
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
To me, "Made In America" means the future is going to be ok.
To me, "Made In America" means the future is going to be ok.
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What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
- Thread starter Evan Skopp
- Start date
Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
Let me see. How can I illustrate this best? I'll just use a popular Duncan marketing slogan.
I AM SEYMOUR DUNCAN
I AM SEYMOUR DUNCAN
I AM SEYMOUR DUNCAN
Let me see. How can I illustrate this best? I'll just use a popular Duncan marketing slogan.
I AM SEYMOUR DUNCAN
I AM SEYMOUR DUNCAN
I AM SEYMOUR DUNCAN
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JB_From_Hell
Jomo's Nimions
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
With Seymour Duncan, "Made in USA" means if I'm buying a JB, it's gonna sound like one. It means consistency, something not present in the Duncan Designed line. I've switched between two HB-102Bs, and you'd never guess they were supposed to be the same pickup.
However, if you were to transport the Duncan shop in California to Ethiopia, "Made in Ethiopia" would be my new guage for consistency in SD pickups.
With Seymour Duncan, "Made in USA" means if I'm buying a JB, it's gonna sound like one. It means consistency, something not present in the Duncan Designed line. I've switched between two HB-102Bs, and you'd never guess they were supposed to be the same pickup.
However, if you were to transport the Duncan shop in California to Ethiopia, "Made in Ethiopia" would be my new guage for consistency in SD pickups.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
Wow what a thread! It takes a lot of guts to put something like this out there. I think what you're trying to establish is how much positive energy is cultivated by your current MIA status, rather than how much negative surrounds the overseas product. You should be proud that you are currently a very faithful extension of your roots, and not simply a marketing firm for asian made product.
Let's break it down a little:
Marketing: From a marketing standpoint, MIA is worth a few dollars, both domestically and abroad. You can conceivably maintain profit levels for MIA product on something like a pickup, because it's a relatively low cost item in the context of a complete guitar rig. (amp, pedals, guitar, etc) So I don't think MIA or the premium associated with it can negatively impact volume or margins, but I don't know SD's internals either. Perhaps there's a larger gap than I think.
I don't see a problem expanding the MIK Duncan Designed product line to introduce more choice, but again from a marketing standpoint does that dilute your current equity? SD is currently thought of as a premium quality manufacturer. Unlike a GFS or Armstrong for example, you're NOT thought of as a design team that orders models you design from anywhere you choose. You're thought of as a quality manufacturer, and you've worked hard to earn and maintain that reputation. MIK product with the straight "Seymour Duncan" name could alter that. Which brings me to:
Product: The quality of MIK pups has improved dramatically over the past decade. Perhaps it's time to give them a shot at truly making quality product. In guitars, many companies are marketing $1200-$2000 Korean product. That was unheard of 10 years ago. But if the inspection and QC is good, Korea can produce good product. They require more supervision. In the past, they would become lax with quality standards if left unchecked. That could still be the case.
I have no problem with importing bobbins, baseplates, and other parts. But to date, I can hear a difference between a coil that they wind, and one that you wound in Santa Barbara. But I've also seen the Koreans be able to learn and implement techniques, when mandated by the customer. But it had to be mandated, and well supervised, or else they'd fall back to "cost cutting" mode after awhile.
Overall, what is the "value" to me? Peace of mind that I can order product sight unseen, and it will sound right. I will pay extra for that. As someone said, a JB will sound like a JB. Perhaps new models can be developed with an Asian manufacturer's strengths in mind, and an efficient synergy cultivated. But if all of a sudden classic models began to come from a different factory altogether, it would be seen as an end of an era, right or wrong.
Wow what a thread! It takes a lot of guts to put something like this out there. I think what you're trying to establish is how much positive energy is cultivated by your current MIA status, rather than how much negative surrounds the overseas product. You should be proud that you are currently a very faithful extension of your roots, and not simply a marketing firm for asian made product.
Let's break it down a little:
Marketing: From a marketing standpoint, MIA is worth a few dollars, both domestically and abroad. You can conceivably maintain profit levels for MIA product on something like a pickup, because it's a relatively low cost item in the context of a complete guitar rig. (amp, pedals, guitar, etc) So I don't think MIA or the premium associated with it can negatively impact volume or margins, but I don't know SD's internals either. Perhaps there's a larger gap than I think.
I don't see a problem expanding the MIK Duncan Designed product line to introduce more choice, but again from a marketing standpoint does that dilute your current equity? SD is currently thought of as a premium quality manufacturer. Unlike a GFS or Armstrong for example, you're NOT thought of as a design team that orders models you design from anywhere you choose. You're thought of as a quality manufacturer, and you've worked hard to earn and maintain that reputation. MIK product with the straight "Seymour Duncan" name could alter that. Which brings me to:
Product: The quality of MIK pups has improved dramatically over the past decade. Perhaps it's time to give them a shot at truly making quality product. In guitars, many companies are marketing $1200-$2000 Korean product. That was unheard of 10 years ago. But if the inspection and QC is good, Korea can produce good product. They require more supervision. In the past, they would become lax with quality standards if left unchecked. That could still be the case.
I have no problem with importing bobbins, baseplates, and other parts. But to date, I can hear a difference between a coil that they wind, and one that you wound in Santa Barbara. But I've also seen the Koreans be able to learn and implement techniques, when mandated by the customer. But it had to be mandated, and well supervised, or else they'd fall back to "cost cutting" mode after awhile.
Overall, what is the "value" to me? Peace of mind that I can order product sight unseen, and it will sound right. I will pay extra for that. As someone said, a JB will sound like a JB. Perhaps new models can be developed with an Asian manufacturer's strengths in mind, and an efficient synergy cultivated. But if all of a sudden classic models began to come from a different factory altogether, it would be seen as an end of an era, right or wrong.
B
benji657
Guest
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
nothing
if it sounded the same, i really couldn't care less about where my JB was made
nothing
if it sounded the same, i really couldn't care less about where my JB was made
Zerberus
Baron Von Shred
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
In General, I will not knowingly purchase any product made in China. Nor will I allow to be purchased for me, or accept it as a gift. This was actually my main reason for selling off my SFX-01, I had assumed at purchase that it was Made in the USA. This was admittedly my own fault for not conducting proper research before I made my purchase.
This position will hold until such a time as the Chinese government adheres to International standards regarding (first and foremost, but certainly not all the reasons) Intellectual Property Rights and Human Rights.
On top of that, as a general Rule I highly prefer goods made in the USA, or at least a NAFTA or EU country. I do not purchase goods assembled in or with materials sourced from China or Indonesia, but will actually willingly pay more (sometimes substantially) for products made and sourced in the USA or the EU. MIA Carhartt jeans for example are quite expensive over here. But I still won´t wear anything else as it´s the only USA made jean available to me.
This is not a pride issue with me, but I view it as an investment in my own future as well as an upholding of my own morals. Whether I someday return to the USA or somehow duke it out over here, I would prefer to do it working as something other than Burger King, and even if not I´d prefer to know that I did what was within my power to avoid it.
With regard to Seymour Duncan, there would be no difference in Modus Operandi. This means that if production would be transferred to China, I would no longer purchase production Duncans.
Just as I no longer purchase most Celestions, but have since switched to Eminence and sold my Celestions to eliminate any idea that I may still support the company. I will not purchase current Marshall or Mesa cabinets for this reason, dito for Ruby Tubes (and w/ them Mesa, which did hurt a bit) and Dimarzio. There are numerous others, but these are some of the larger companies this has impacted w/ regards to myself. This means that to avoid accidentally endorsing MIC Duncans by using the MIA predecessor, I would very likely sell my existing Duncans over time.... Essentially reloading 14 guitars...
Duncan Designed I may purchase, but admittedly the line doesn´t really interest me much. I would almost certainly move to alternatives like Bareknuckle and the Duncan CS (assuming that MJ and Seymour would stay in the USA with the CS) and adjust my purchase volume accordingly. This would also massively impact my new instrument purchases, for example I would never purchase a new Jackson PC-1, an admittedly outstanding guitar, solely because it´s loaded with Dimarzios from the factory, and the same would apply to guitars loaded w/ production Duncans. Loading at the factory = OEM sales, and the entire boycot is a joke if I were to allow myself to be lulled into thinking they´re not directly intertwined.
Also, as a victim of outsourcing myself, the stigmata that such a move paints a company with is not a favorable one either.
I have no such issues with Korean, Japanese, or Taiwanese products (I actually prefer Taiwanese out of those 3 becasue it helps piss China off
) But my reasons and therefore most of the result would remain unchanged.
Bottom line: I would certainly not start ripping on Duncan products unless the quality takes a massive drop.... but my sales volume both aftermarket, as a Luthier /tech, and in guitars (= OEM sales) would likely drop so radically that I would probably never be able to find out. Nor would I recommend them anymore to my own customers or install them in a custom guitar if not provided by the customer. Zerbeguitars would essentially become an EMG or boutique only operation, from the Current status of Duncan /EMG / Sometimes boutique.
This probably isn´t what General Management, Controlling and Accounting want to hear. But hey, you asked
Good luck whatever the final verdict is. :beerchug:
In General, I will not knowingly purchase any product made in China. Nor will I allow to be purchased for me, or accept it as a gift. This was actually my main reason for selling off my SFX-01, I had assumed at purchase that it was Made in the USA. This was admittedly my own fault for not conducting proper research before I made my purchase.
This position will hold until such a time as the Chinese government adheres to International standards regarding (first and foremost, but certainly not all the reasons) Intellectual Property Rights and Human Rights.
On top of that, as a general Rule I highly prefer goods made in the USA, or at least a NAFTA or EU country. I do not purchase goods assembled in or with materials sourced from China or Indonesia, but will actually willingly pay more (sometimes substantially) for products made and sourced in the USA or the EU. MIA Carhartt jeans for example are quite expensive over here. But I still won´t wear anything else as it´s the only USA made jean available to me.
This is not a pride issue with me, but I view it as an investment in my own future as well as an upholding of my own morals. Whether I someday return to the USA or somehow duke it out over here, I would prefer to do it working as something other than Burger King, and even if not I´d prefer to know that I did what was within my power to avoid it.
With regard to Seymour Duncan, there would be no difference in Modus Operandi. This means that if production would be transferred to China, I would no longer purchase production Duncans.
Just as I no longer purchase most Celestions, but have since switched to Eminence and sold my Celestions to eliminate any idea that I may still support the company. I will not purchase current Marshall or Mesa cabinets for this reason, dito for Ruby Tubes (and w/ them Mesa, which did hurt a bit) and Dimarzio. There are numerous others, but these are some of the larger companies this has impacted w/ regards to myself. This means that to avoid accidentally endorsing MIC Duncans by using the MIA predecessor, I would very likely sell my existing Duncans over time.... Essentially reloading 14 guitars...
Duncan Designed I may purchase, but admittedly the line doesn´t really interest me much. I would almost certainly move to alternatives like Bareknuckle and the Duncan CS (assuming that MJ and Seymour would stay in the USA with the CS) and adjust my purchase volume accordingly. This would also massively impact my new instrument purchases, for example I would never purchase a new Jackson PC-1, an admittedly outstanding guitar, solely because it´s loaded with Dimarzios from the factory, and the same would apply to guitars loaded w/ production Duncans. Loading at the factory = OEM sales, and the entire boycot is a joke if I were to allow myself to be lulled into thinking they´re not directly intertwined.
Also, as a victim of outsourcing myself, the stigmata that such a move paints a company with is not a favorable one either.
I have no such issues with Korean, Japanese, or Taiwanese products (I actually prefer Taiwanese out of those 3 becasue it helps piss China off
) But my reasons and therefore most of the result would remain unchanged.Bottom line: I would certainly not start ripping on Duncan products unless the quality takes a massive drop.... but my sales volume both aftermarket, as a Luthier /tech, and in guitars (= OEM sales) would likely drop so radically that I would probably never be able to find out. Nor would I recommend them anymore to my own customers or install them in a custom guitar if not provided by the customer. Zerbeguitars would essentially become an EMG or boutique only operation, from the Current status of Duncan /EMG / Sometimes boutique.
This probably isn´t what General Management, Controlling and Accounting want to hear. But hey, you asked
Good luck whatever the final verdict is. :beerchug:
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frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
FWIW, I don't think Evan ever hinted at "lets make Seth Lovers in Korea" or anything of that nature. So we shouldn't go "conspiracy theory" with this thread. To me it's probably more about helping Evan facilitate a meaningful discussion. I believe he referred to it as "fodder."
FWIW, I don't think Evan ever hinted at "lets make Seth Lovers in Korea" or anything of that nature. So we shouldn't go "conspiracy theory" with this thread. To me it's probably more about helping Evan facilitate a meaningful discussion. I believe he referred to it as "fodder."
Robert Delahunt
Showmasterologist
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
And yes, to reverberate the sentiments of others: I will NOT buy pickups that claim to sound like PAF or anything else that's AMERICAN if it's not made in AMERICA. I'd rather wait one year to get my pickup knowing seymour duncan himself, or one of his winder techs, made my pickup, rather than buying something else. If it was outsourced elsewhere, I would immediately discontinue buying from SD: I would ebay for used ones that were originally made in the USA.
This is also why I prefer not to shop at Walmart (made in China) and instead shop at target or on base (made in USA). I realize that we can't buy everything made in America, sadly. Also, there are times when we can't and are pressed for time (like when we bought that Honda CRV) or money (like when I bought my used Mazda). But whenever I possibly can, I'm buying USA.
And yes, to reverberate the sentiments of others: I will NOT buy pickups that claim to sound like PAF or anything else that's AMERICAN if it's not made in AMERICA. I'd rather wait one year to get my pickup knowing seymour duncan himself, or one of his winder techs, made my pickup, rather than buying something else. If it was outsourced elsewhere, I would immediately discontinue buying from SD: I would ebay for used ones that were originally made in the USA.
This is also why I prefer not to shop at Walmart (made in China) and instead shop at target or on base (made in USA). I realize that we can't buy everything made in America, sadly. Also, there are times when we can't and are pressed for time (like when we bought that Honda CRV) or money (like when I bought my used Mazda). But whenever I possibly can, I'm buying USA.
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
Almost 90% of all toyotas are made in america by americans.
Moreso than any GM or ford product.
And in the heat of this discussion, I have to say that MIA means quality, PERIOD.
A product made in china or korea makes me look the other way. As soon as I see the MIA sticker, I know it's a serious product that someone probably gave a damn about when they made it.
Almost 90% of all toyotas are made in america by americans.
Moreso than any GM or ford product.
And in the heat of this discussion, I have to say that MIA means quality, PERIOD.
A product made in china or korea makes me look the other way. As soon as I see the MIA sticker, I know it's a serious product that someone probably gave a damn about when they made it.
Robert Delahunt
Showmasterologist
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
Do you visit the assembly lines? Do you know where the parts they're using come from? There was a recent article by some conservative news on how most the ones who claim to be made in America aren't.
Beyond that, I could care less to a point. However, I've been to Korea, and I can say that while they're not American, South Korea cares about the products it puts out. Their work ethic (if I can take the impressions I got from being around their country) seems to be acceptable.
But then again, I should probably take that elsewhere.
Do you visit the assembly lines? Do you know where the parts they're using come from? There was a recent article by some conservative news on how most the ones who claim to be made in America aren't.
Beyond that, I could care less to a point. However, I've been to Korea, and I can say that while they're not American, South Korea cares about the products it puts out. Their work ethic (if I can take the impressions I got from being around their country) seems to be acceptable.
But then again, I should probably take that elsewhere.
Sludgenutz
New member
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
I have not read this entire thread....
For the first time in my life, I get to play the role of Darrin Stevens... the advertising exec with the hot young wife (Elizabeth Montgomery as Samantha Stevens...purrr) from the TV series "Bewitched"!:dance:
-------------------------------------------------------
When I think of Seymour Duncan/"Made in USA", I think of "The Man" Seymour. I actually feel there there is a close connection between Seymour and the products I see in the store, and on the web, no matter the retailer.
I do not feel there is a personal connection with the biggest competitor DiMarzio. To me (IMHO), the DiMarzio brand reminds me of a street hustler on a busy street corner with an overcoat loaded full of cheap wrist watches. Too many choices. "Wanna buy a watch, Sonny? I got's what you need!"
The guitar community needs to be able to identify that Seymour IS pickups, just as Leo Fender is Fender, and Harlon Sanders is KFC. That might make Seymour nervous, so how about a sweet SD/USA logo?
----------------------------------------------------------------
Also, what I gather from the "Made in USA" Seymour Duncan family...there are very few steps between Seymour and the end user. What would a chart like that look like:
Me (the end user).
The custom shop/customer service.
Seymour's office staff.
Seymour himself!
This is excellent, and beyond rare in this day and age!
------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I would never have been aware of Seymour's "21 day pickup satisfaction policy" had it not been for this board, and Warmoth's SD 21 day return policy posted on their site.
Good Luck ALL!
I have not read this entire thread....
For the first time in my life, I get to play the role of Darrin Stevens... the advertising exec with the hot young wife (Elizabeth Montgomery as Samantha Stevens...purrr) from the TV series "Bewitched"!:dance:
-------------------------------------------------------
When I think of Seymour Duncan/"Made in USA", I think of "The Man" Seymour. I actually feel there there is a close connection between Seymour and the products I see in the store, and on the web, no matter the retailer.
I do not feel there is a personal connection with the biggest competitor DiMarzio. To me (IMHO), the DiMarzio brand reminds me of a street hustler on a busy street corner with an overcoat loaded full of cheap wrist watches. Too many choices. "Wanna buy a watch, Sonny? I got's what you need!"
The guitar community needs to be able to identify that Seymour IS pickups, just as Leo Fender is Fender, and Harlon Sanders is KFC. That might make Seymour nervous, so how about a sweet SD/USA logo?
----------------------------------------------------------------
Also, what I gather from the "Made in USA" Seymour Duncan family...there are very few steps between Seymour and the end user. What would a chart like that look like:
Me (the end user).
The custom shop/customer service.
Seymour's office staff.
Seymour himself!
This is excellent, and beyond rare in this day and age!
------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I would never have been aware of Seymour's "21 day pickup satisfaction policy" had it not been for this board, and Warmoth's SD 21 day return policy posted on their site.
Good Luck ALL!
shredaholic
New member
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
It means the people making this pickup weren't forced to do so for 5p a day and whipped every time they talked.
It means the people making this pickup weren't forced to do so for 5p a day and whipped every time they talked.
JacksonMIA
Lemur-buckerologist
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
That brings up another good point. I would be concerned that the 21 day exchange policy would stay in effect. I don't forsee it being a problem to keep it as long as the domestic distributer could keep enough, but it would be easy to say you couldn't offer it anymore. While I've yet to need to take advantage of it, that policy always gives me some added confidence when I'm buying a pickup. I know a lot of people consider it a necessity.
1ManGarageBand
New member
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
Like the lady who was offered $1M for sex, the question makes me uncomfortably aware of the fact that my values aren't set in stone.
I'm willing to pay 5-10% more to support my local music store, but it's closer to 5% for big ticket items.
Given equal quality, I'd be willing to pay 5-10% more for MIA.
(What I'd REALLY like for SD to do is publish more extensive sound bites of different pickups played through different guitars/amps: I've bought 8 SD HBs so far with only 1 keeper; those sound bites might have saved me from buying a few SD pickups, but perhaps you don't want to go there . . .)
Like the lady who was offered $1M for sex, the question makes me uncomfortably aware of the fact that my values aren't set in stone.
I'm willing to pay 5-10% more to support my local music store, but it's closer to 5% for big ticket items.
Given equal quality, I'd be willing to pay 5-10% more for MIA.
(What I'd REALLY like for SD to do is publish more extensive sound bites of different pickups played through different guitars/amps: I've bought 8 SD HBs so far with only 1 keeper; those sound bites might have saved me from buying a few SD pickups, but perhaps you don't want to go there . . .)
JumpMarine
18 watts of Mayhemologist
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
As an American Farmer, I despise the unbalanced trade that we currently have with China. I try, to the best of my ability, not to purchase goods made in China and look for the "Made in the USA" lable. To me it represents quality and supports someone from my country.
As an American Farmer, I despise the unbalanced trade that we currently have with China. I try, to the best of my ability, not to purchase goods made in China and look for the "Made in the USA" lable. To me it represents quality and supports someone from my country.
Jeff_H
Dean Hardtail Fanologist
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
When it comes to musical instruments and equipment, to me "Made In The USA" signifies a higher standard of production and quality as compared to foreign made products, where labor is cheaper. I will generally go out of my way to purchase "Made In The USA" products, especially when (again) it comes to musical instruments and equipment.
As for SD as a company, I think this again differentiates you as a company, and stresses quality construction and materials. So many companies are outsourcing production and service these days, and Americans are losing jobs. I'm not sure about Dimarizo, or some of the other pickup makers, but I imagine some produce a portion of their main line oversea's. I would think it vital to continue to stress that your products are made here, and that jobs are being created (or at least not lost).
When it comes to musical instruments and equipment, to me "Made In The USA" signifies a higher standard of production and quality as compared to foreign made products, where labor is cheaper. I will generally go out of my way to purchase "Made In The USA" products, especially when (again) it comes to musical instruments and equipment.
As for SD as a company, I think this again differentiates you as a company, and stresses quality construction and materials. So many companies are outsourcing production and service these days, and Americans are losing jobs. I'm not sure about Dimarizo, or some of the other pickup makers, but I imagine some produce a portion of their main line oversea's. I would think it vital to continue to stress that your products are made here, and that jobs are being created (or at least not lost).
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
Well excuse me, but there's a toyota truck plant a few miles from my house. American workers are making money working there.
I don't care if the fenders are made in japan, almost all chevies are completely made in canada.
Well excuse me, but there's a toyota truck plant a few miles from my house. American workers are making money working there.
I don't care if the fenders are made in japan, almost all chevies are completely made in canada.
claytonc
New member
Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?
I am really impressed with many of the statements above. It confirms in my mind that this may be the finest forum of any type on the web.
The value of "made in USA" for SD pickups is immense. Seymour Duncan has established itself as the upper echelon of the industry standard. SD pickups are more than just plastic, metal, wire and magnets. There is a mystic or mojo knowing that Seymour himself was involved in the design and production.
I believe that the economy is reaching a threshold and Made In USA is becoming something to once again take pride in. Industry has left the USA at frightening rate, and I hope it has bottomed out! I search out items made in the USA. I refuse Chinese products, paying 2-3 times more for something made in USA.
I am sad to learn that the Twin Tube pedal is made in China. I can cross it off my list.
Clayton
I am really impressed with many of the statements above. It confirms in my mind that this may be the finest forum of any type on the web.
The value of "made in USA" for SD pickups is immense. Seymour Duncan has established itself as the upper echelon of the industry standard. SD pickups are more than just plastic, metal, wire and magnets. There is a mystic or mojo knowing that Seymour himself was involved in the design and production.
I believe that the economy is reaching a threshold and Made In USA is becoming something to once again take pride in. Industry has left the USA at frightening rate, and I hope it has bottomed out! I search out items made in the USA. I refuse Chinese products, paying 2-3 times more for something made in USA.
I am sad to learn that the Twin Tube pedal is made in China. I can cross it off my list.
Clayton
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