What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

[devastone]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

"Made in America" in and of itself doesn't always mean much to me. The auto industry is a perfect example. Generally, I consider imports to be of better quality than American made. Pickup trucks might be the exception.

I'm currently driving a Ford Ranger, it isn't even 1/2 the truck my Tacoma was, so, I'll go with Toyota trucks too. Sad, but true that an American icon, the pickup truck, is being better made by a Japanese company. I think the blame goes across the board though (not just cars, but many MIA or former MIA companies), upper management in large companies is more interested in the bottom line, the holy $, which turns into complacency from employees who know that they really don't matter if a shareholder can save or make a buck. I could write a disertation on this, but I think most everyone agrees.

There's one other area where America shines: small business. I would put Seymour Duncan in this catagory. I mean "small" as opposed to Dupont, GM, Microsoft, etc. It isn't that Seymour Duncan is made in America, per se. Its that its made in Santa Barbara. By SD employees. Duncans products and this forum have given me a peek into Duncan management, and I assume that most Duncan employees are pretty happy with their jobs, and the product they produce. Thats the essence of what I like about their products. I believe that someone is winding my pup that cares about the quality of the final product and the music that it may produce. As fine a people as the Chinese factory workers might be, I doubt they have that same concern for that coil of wire. They may not even know what it is.

Well said, small businesses are the future of the US, most of the big companies have already gone overseas. A company like SD is what was good about American companies 40 years ago, personal service and commitment, or at least that's the feeling we get as user's of their product. Their reputation is worth spending a little more. If we have a problem, we can call SD and talk to a real person. I don't boycott items made overseas, there are some beautiful guitars that come out of Japan and I have owned many, many of which are as well or better made that similar MIA products. Korea is showing some fine craftsmanship now too, they are where Japan was 25 or so years ago and catching up fast. I still associate Made in China, Made in Indonesia, or Made in Taiwan with cheap, and probably will never buy a guitar for myself made in any of those places. In fact, I think flooding the industry with those hurts the market, sure they are kinda playable, but crap, I'm turning into an old f**t here. "Yeah, back in my day, you couldn't go down to the local guitar center and home office emporium and buy you a decent guitar for $100 (which was a considerable sum of $ then). You had to shovel some snow barefoot and earn it." There I go rambling again...

So, yeah, my final answer is that MIA is very important for a company like Duncan.

 

[Artie]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

I wanted to add one last thought: for me, its important that the pickups are MIA, but not quite so much for the pedals. I see that as a side-line. I still want them to be quality, but "electronics" seems to be a natural for Asian made. I hope thats not too bad of a racist statement. :blackeye:

 

[stevie_bees]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

I wanted to add one last thought: for me, its important that the pickups are MIA, but not quite so much for the pedals. I see that as a side-line. I still want them to be quality, but "electronics" seems to be a natural for Asian made. I hope thats not too bad of a racist statement. :blackeye:

Considering that Japan always seemed to be forging ahead with some new electronic gizmo or idea, I don't think that is entirely unfair. A printed circuit board always seems inherently "far east" to me.

 

[BloodRose]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

Played an instrument recently with Duncan Designed pups and they sounded within an eye-lash of thier MIA counter parts. If that were my instrument, I'd still change the pups out for American Duncan's of a different model just for the prestige and the peace of mind of not wondering if they were "top shelf". To me it would not be worth it $ wise to swap them for the same model though. The Duncan Designed pups were that close.

Ditto.. I have a couple of axes that came with Designed pups and they didnt sound too bad. But... The designed are now in a box and those guitars have the "real deal" Duncans, which to me, sound and look better. And give me that extra bit of confidence that the guitar wont let me down..

Another note, I think it would be safe to say that having "real made in USofA Duncans", is a good selling point for guitars. Because we know its already loaded with the best......

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

On a sentimental level, it would really be sad if Seymour made their stuff outside the USA. The electric guitar is an American icon and we like them to stay that way to the extent they can.

Plus, making stuff overseas isn't always cheaper. For one thing, your freight bill is HUGE because international shipping ain't cheap.

But practically, as long as quality didn't suffer and prices didn't go up, though I have my doubts, I'd be okay with it.

To be blunt, the only reason to move mfg overseas is cost. I would expect a significant price reduction if they were made over seas. Otherwise it is a pure money move and would signal a significant change in the companies view of their customers.

Ther reality is that "cheaper" is equated with lesser quality in the minds of most which is reason 2 for companies not lowering price.

 

[lp_gem]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

i think it all depends on whether the pickups would have a significant reduction in price or not (doubt it though)

my perception is that the profit margins on pickups are already quite high,, even if they are made in USA..

but i suppose you cant blame a company for wanting to make more money, that is the purpose of their existence after all.. but theres no way id pay $140 (AU) for magnets, wire and plastic from china

 

[MikeS]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

You guys are killing me with your comparison to automobiles. One, a guitar pickup and an automobile are in no way comparable in this discussion. The production means and materials are so worldly apart that there’s nothing to compare. The size of the companies are in proportion to David and Goliath. Two, with a few exceptions, your “imports” such as Toyota and Honda are Japanese engineered, but build stateside by Americans.

Bottom line for me (aside from my first response) is that from the outside, Seymour Duncan appears to be a very successful company who has proven they deliver a high quality product and meet their customers with the highest degree of customer service. Why mess with success?

Another question I would pose is can you put a price on integrity? If so, how much is it worth? For the consumer, how much would you pay for the assurance that you are receiving a top-shelf product? $20? $30? $50? Regarding only the Seymour Duncan Company in this case, “Made in USA” is a guarantee that the product I’m receiving was built by people who pride themselves on making the finest electric guitar pickups. I, for one, am willing to pony up for that assurance.

 

[WGTP]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

I haven't read the rest of these responses, but here is my 2 cents. It seems to be the way of the world that manufacturing is moving where the labor is cheap. China, Mexico, ultimately other places, if they will settle down will benefit/suffer from the new jobs, pollution, etc. Guitar manufactures have set up an interesting deal where you can buy there American made stuff for 2 to 10 times as much or there foriegn stuff for 2 to 10 times less. I just bought a PRS made in China because I was intrigued with the combination of Gibson and Fender like features. I also played a $3500 American made PRS that had a noticebley better tone. Was it worth 10 times more than the China made one??? I don't think so, but some folks might. After I slip in some Duncan pups, things will be different and I still won't have $500 dollars in it.

It's up to Duncan to determine whether there products made elsewhere measure up to their high standards. If I could get a Screamin Demon made in China for $40 and Duncan is telling me it sounds as good as the American made one, I would probably go for it.

If the Performer series gets a bad name because Ducan is not insuring a high level of quality, I might not go for it... I'm interested in the Strat single coils, because they are described as being between the SSL1 and SSL5, which is something that is not available American made except from the custom shop.

WHEN MY GUITAR PLAYING AND TONE ARE SO GOOD THAT i THINK THE CHEAP STUFF IS HOLDING ME BACK, that is when I'll start getting the expensive stuff and I will probably die first.:laugh2:

 

[ErikH]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

I'm currently driving a Ford Ranger, it isn't even 1/2 the truck my Tacoma was, so, I'll go with Toyota trucks too. Sad, but true that an American icon, the pickup truck, is being better made by a Japanese company.

Sorry to go off topic, but if your Ranger was a model from within the last 10-15 years, it's a Mazda B series with Ford badges.

They're made here in the States like MikeS said, just engineered overseas.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves with speculation and what-ifs. Honestly, this is just fodder for a discussion on the value of "Made in USA," nothing more.

But keep those comments coming. Especially new points. And I want to hear from members who haven't posted already in this thread.

 

[esandes]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves with speculation and what-ifs. Honestly, this is just fodder for a discussion on the value of "Made in USA," nothing more.

But keep those comments coming. Especially new points. And I want to hear from members who haven't posted already in this thread.

in other words...whoever already posted...shut up please. :chairfall

 

[devastone]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

Sorry to go off topic, but if your Ranger was a model from within the last 10-15 years, it's a Mazda B series with Ford badges.

They're made here in the States like MikeS said, just engineered overseas.

Good point, so, that says something for brand name association. Mitsubishi is also a Japanese company but they have a bad reputation for quality and reliability. Toyota, Honda, and to a slightly lesser point, Subaru, seem to be the cream of the crop in the automotive industry when it comes to reliability and longevity. (The Ford still isn't anywhere near as well made as either of the Tacomas I have had, and yes, I know they were all built in the US).

So, to put this on topic, when we buy a SD pickup, we expect the highest quality US made product available, at a reasonable price, because it is a SD product. If SD has to start charging $150 or $200 for standard models, I will have to rethink this, now for the same price I can order the "boutique-y" brands such as bareknuckles and others. I don't think their quality is better than SD or that they have any super special mojo, but my opinion of what a pickup costs has had to change therefore opening up new options. Actually, at that point I would probably be ordering from Bill and Becky and sucking it up and waiting the 6 weeks or so for the pickups.

 

[John Wymore]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

Evan,

While I think it is getting less so, made in USA is still percieved by many to to associate a product with better materials, better manufacturing techniques and higher consistancy.

At the same time I think items made in asian or third world countries still have the stigma of being made cheaply and with unskilled labor. OTOH, products made in some places .... Spain, Italy or Germany can be percieved as being better quality than US made goods.

These are stereotypical impressions based on past history and I think the gap is getting more narrow but they are still there. My personal take on this subject is that I try to buy US first but if a foreign made product is percieved to be of better quality I will purchase it. Honda and Toyota are great examples of quality foreign products (but now assembled here in many cases) that are percieved to be better than US brands.

The other factor with goods made in poor or third world countries is the sweatshop syndrome that has been faced by the clothing industry and also the shoe companies. No matter how good the product is, if there is perception that you are taking US jobs overseas or taking advantage of workers with low pay and poor conditions it can be a big black eye for your company.

Having said all that, I think machine wound pickups could be produced overseas at a comparable level to what you make here with the correct equipment and proper supervision. Since (I'm assuming) that the major portion of the cost to make a pickup is labor then a significant cost reduction to the end user could be realized by reducing labor costs with overseas assembly.

Speaking as a dealer, I think the USA made pickups have a selling advantage over the foreign made units and I'd like to see that continue. If you want to expand the Duncan Designed line I suppose that would be an OK idea but it could cut into the profits of the upper line units. In short ... it's wire, magnets, metal and plastic. What sells it is the SD name and the perception of quality and good tone. Being made in the USA is major part of that. You don't want to lose the personal connection between the buyer, Seymour and the little company in Santa Barbera!!

BTW, this is off topic but if you want to cut costs how about moving out of one of the most expensive cities in the country!! That could cut some overhead!!

Hope this helps .... I'd like to be a fly on the wall in your meeting, I bet that will be an interesting discussion. Beware the evil bean counters!! :smokin:

 

[Great_Kazoo]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

Regarding the value of Duncan pickups being "Made in USA," here's my .02:

As far as simply promoting Duncan pickups as American-made for marketing
purposes, go for it! That's certainly a huge badge of honor that should be
put in the spotlight---and as you've seen, carries a lot of weight with your
end users. For me personally, SD has been a local business here in Santa
Barbara since they started, and I usually try to support local businesses when
I can.

As a consumer however, I'm primarily concerned with the quality and
consistency of the end product, whether it's pickups, appliances or
furniture. If the product I'm purchasing is the best product I can afford,
(e.g. Apple Macintosh computer) the origin doesn't usually factor in on my
decision to buy it.

SD pickups happen to satisfy both points!

 

[Kac]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

I <3 Made in USA anything.

Rock on ~ Kac

 

[Surgeon]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

I try to buy north american products as much as is possible.

However, the Seymour Duncan stamp (not to be confused with Duncan designed) is of more importance to me than the "made in USA". Note that this is probably due to the fact that I am not american but still, that is my point of view.

The USA made label on musical instruments often means higher prices. Sometimes justified and sometimes not (as is the case for a lot of other goods). It is also viewed as a seal of higher-quality... is it always the case? No IMHO, it depends on the brand and more than not, each individual item will slightly vary (i.e. the over-beaten Gibson QC subject)...

As long as an item (in this case a pick-up) reaches a quality (here toneful) level that I want, I'm a buyer, as long as I am not in conflict with the companies policies, etc...

Bottom line for myself: Seymour Duncan means quality to me, not necessarily US-made.

 

[Ravensha]

Re: Value of Made in USA - Part I

Re: Value of Made in USA - Part I

First, thanks for allowing your customers to weigh in on your future business considerations.

For myself, Made in America carries a different meaning for different products I purchase. As you know, things made in the USA can be made poorly. So the MIA sticker isn’t always a rubber stamp of guaranteed quality. Some products can be manufactured overseas and achieve both higher quality and cost savings.

It really comes down to what Seymour Duncan stands for as a business. I think we are all assuming that by asking this question – you are considering off shore manufacturing. And with this consideration – we musicians whom over the years have seen some of our favorite brands move portions of their manufacturing overseas know that - over time, this chain of events has typically lead to a degradation of the quality that built the name in the first place. It gets equated to cheap Strats, Epiphones, no-tone Marshalls and all kinds of “ride that name-brand-recognition for profit” business model.

For lots of products I purchase, I could care less if they are made in America or not. My DVD player, my car, the components in my computer. In fact, those products I appreciate being manufactured NOT in the USA because I know I am getting an incredible rate of value/$ return.

My musical purchases are a different story however. Why the difference?
For some products – MIA implies that you are buying from a company that does it’s own research, design and engineering. They study the nuances of their designs and strive to produce the best quality products. Their engineers push the design and invent new products – while remaining within the boundaries of what is accepted by the marketplace.

For these kinds of products, MIA implies that the company is directly involved in the manufacturing process. Is making sure the best materials have been used. Since you are directly involved in the manufacturing process, if things go wrong, you can fix it on the spot.

Oh, and you know who is actually making our pickups. I would hope that Seymour Duncan fosters an employee culture that makes sure the employees know that we guitarists really care about our pickups. That we want great pickups for our guitars. And we will pay for those great pickups. Pickups make us happy!

I would like to think that whomever is making my pickup might care enough to realize that this pickup will end up in an instrument that someone really cares a lot about. If your products are coming out of a foreign country, you won’t ever be able to tell me how much that person cares – because you did not hire them, and don’t know them at all. . If your pickups were made in China, I am not sure I would be getting the quality I demand for my musical interests.

Made in USA means – that you know who is making our guitar pickups. Now, how much do you think guitar players care about their guitar pickups?

We are not talking guitar cables here. Sure I like a good cable with good connectors. But, if someone offered to sell me a MIA cable – at an inflated price because it was made in USA, I know I would not get a good value return. It isn’t going to affect my sound enough to really tell. But a guitar pickup? Holy mother! You better believe guitar players care about their guitar pickups. A great guitar pickup can inspire life into a cheap guitar. A poorly designed pickup can completely destroy the sound of the guitar you love.

So, you better know we guitarists care a whole lot about pickups – where they are made, what materials are used, and that you guys have put some serious thought and effort into engineering a product that is as high in quality as the guitar I invested in. If that means I have to pay an extra $20 for Juanita to wind my pickup (I have a JN J) - I will pay that. If I spend a few grand on a guitar and still want to replace the pickups (as most of us do) - few grand on an amp, I will pay a little extra more to get the best sound possible from my pickups.

But it isn’t only that you are Made in the USA. It’s that you are on the same quest for tone that guitarists are always on. Here is a USA made pickup that I have played on and don’t like: Carvin. These guys aren’t on a quest for tone. And you can hear it.

(End of Part I)

 

[Ravensha]

Re: Value of Made in USA - Part II

Re: Value of Made in USA - Part II

(Continued from Part I)

As it stands, I am currently shopping for a new set up humbuckers for my 3 pickup Les Paul Custom. And in the last thirty days, I have been doing my web research and making a decision as to who I am going to go with. Over the years I have used lots of EMGs, Seymour Duncans, and Dimarzios. I have settled on using Seymour Duncan because of what I perceive to be attention to quality and detail in manufacturing – and ultimately the quest to produce the best tone in a guitar pickup.

My perception is that you guys are more serious about guitar tone – than you are about your endorsements. And being made in the USA is a factor in creating such a vital component of the electric guitar.

For musical instruments in general I think there definitely is alway that “home team” appeal. I love knowing that if I need, I can drive to Petaluma and visit Mesa. I have never had a bad Seymour Duncan pickup – but if I did, I could knock on your door too. Or, at least call you in a familiar time zone. Not only are you in the USA, but you are in Santa Barbara! Admittedly, when I found out you were located in Santa Barbara, that did factor in. It’s one of my favorite places to visit – I hit up Solstice day as often as I can.

Some might say, “it’s just a pickup – give some overseas manufacturing facility the plans and they can spit them out to your specifications for less blah blah blah.” But, a friend of mine owns her own company and does have products manufactured in China. She is trying to get a higher quality product and has all kinds of supply issues. It’s a mess. The company I work for has moved some of our manufacturing overseas. For some of our products, it has been great. But for our higher end more specialized equipment – headache after headache. And we have decided that some things just cannot be made “over there”. One of my customers said to me, “I appreciate your company saving me $600, but it probably cost me about $800 in headaces.” And he was 100% correct.

For a consumer, pickups are a wacky kind of product. Because really – you can’t try it before you buy it. And once you try it … it has been installed in your guitar. If the customer is unhappy – they probably aren’t going to try another one of your products. They’ll move on to another brand - I would expect.

So, you have to get it right the first time. Sticking to the highest standards of quality in materials and manufacturing will help insure that the customer's expectations are being met with the MIA sticker. And for you, made in USA is an asset to the Seymour Duncan name and its products.

When I purchase a Seymour Duncan pickup, I feel like I am buying a quality piece of equipment – for my USA made guitars – which will be connected to my USA made Mesa amplifiers. I am willing to pay more money for what I perceive to be a better quality product – because it is a made in the USA Seymour Duncan pickup. I might be paying more, I still perceive a high value/$ return.

Oh, and I really do care a LOT about my guitar tone.

Younger players with cheap guitars know that a new pickup is an easy and affordable way to make their guitar sound better. And because of the relative cost of a pickup – we aren’t talking about a lot more money to get the better Made in USA Seymour. So it is totally worth the money for them to spend a little extra to get the product that they can afford. Not only that, but their new pickup can migrate with them when they get a better instrument. But I imagine this area of the market is a little difficult to compete in given the high visibility of endorsing that other pickup companies do.

When I look at DiMarzio, I am not sure if I am paying for quality – or the endorsement deals. I have had my share of DiMarzios, and have moved on. I think the difficult thing for Seymour Duncan is differentiating your image relative to the high impact endorsements I see from other companies. IMO, I think you guys need a much stronger web presence.

Seymour Duncan’s “hedgehog principle” is making awesome pickups. Please, never forget that. I get worried when I see things like effects pedals. Case in point – I own a Seymour Duncan Convertible amp.

Thanks for listening, and thanks for not making 27,000 different kinds of pickups. Made choosing pickups for my Les Paul much easier – though that middle pickup choice is still a mystery for most.

 

[Hawkz900]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

I know it has been stated before and I hate to bang the same drum again but if I can put the money in some American workers pocket at the end of the day I will. It is easy to send the jobs overseas but it takes commitment to keep the jobs over here. So thanks for keeping it in the USA

 

[Fusion1]

Re: What is the Value of "Made In USA" for SD Pickups?

Evan MADE IN THE USA means a lot to me. After visiting the SD factory back in 2001 with you as my tour guide, I had a first hand experience of the quality that goes into the pickups being made. From meeting MJ and Seymour and others I realized you can't put a price on people that take that much pride in their work, and the loyalty you all showed for the company you work for spoke volumes to me, and as an end user of SD pickups it is all about tone and that is why SD pickups are so revered the world over.

You've heard the saying, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" well that's how I feel about Made in America. Sure it costs more, but I think people are willing to pay that price.