What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

[Nightburst]

Hey guys,

Been a while since i posted here but its good to see the forum still alive and kicking.
I've been changing my music tastes lately and stumbled upon some bands that have a distinct style I really want to intergrate into my playing style.
For example listening to Hoobastank I really enjoy how the guitar player (Dan Estrin) plays with melodical lines and wont just chug the basic chord progressions like so many other dropped tuning bands do.
My question is... I cant find any articles on how to break down this style of playing into theory. I'm not big on modes, scales and whatnot but I'm sure theres a certain pattern to this anyone can learn. Maybe some modes or chord shapes will lend itself perfectly to this kind of style?
Anyone have any ideas on what scales or modes to start digging into?
Lets take the songs: Same Direction and Without a Fight as a template for now.

I just want to learn something new and be able to use it for my own band, not sounding like 13 in a dozen low tuned chugger. My bandmates kinda have a prog rock background so I really want to show them how to keep it radio friendly but still have interesting/different flavours in the music.

Hope you guys can make sense out of my story as its kinda vague what im looking for but English is not my native language and theres no better way i can explain what im aiming for atm.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

The tuning may be lower but the scales, modes, rules of harmony and counterpoint remain the same.

If you want new chord shapes, consider a non-standard set of intervals between the strings. Despite the obvious stylistic differences, there is much to be learned from the open tunings of Joni Mitchell.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

The 12 tones of music don't care how low you tune your guitar, or even what instrument you play or the genre of music you prefer.
Learn music. Learn how it works. Learn chord theory. Learn arpeggios. Learn scales. Learn Harmony. Learn chord embellishment and substitution.
Basically, learn as much as you can about music because it will only make you a better and more diverse musician.
You wont get what you need from magazine articles or you tube clips. You need some dedicated, methodical and applied time studying this stuff from the ground up. There are no quick fixes. Its mostly hard work.

 

[DankStar]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

I always wonder how people handle figuring out keys and scales and stuff with drop & lowered tunings. I guess they just "act" like they're in standard tuning when it comes to theory and just consider shapes at that point?

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

gibson 175 is right in his 'notes dont care how low your tuned'. There's no different theory for drop C.

My advice? Play more guitar. Play Play Play and Write Write Write. Learning those songs that you like the style of will help you to figure out what he's doing and whatnot.

Now go play.

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

I think instead of looking for particular scales or other chunks of hard theory, you should be looking for chord TRANSPOSITION and ARPEGGIATION. The trap that guitarists who play in metal bands fall into is chunking away on the low 3 strings and avoiding the high end, which is a sad thing because the guitar's job is to add melodic content to the groundwork the drums and bass are laying down. Rhythm guitar that is dialed into the same frequencies that the bass plays just muddle everything up.

so, you want it to sound a little more Hoobastanky....
...
just a sec..

okay, I'm better.

I only know one song from them, which is Reason. I remember the guitarist giving the bass a lot of wiggle room and during the verses playing higher arpeggios. During the chorus I would probably assume that he's using full chords instead of power chords...I may be wrong.

Figure out what notes you're playing, then find the same chord inversions (root note not the first note) and transpositions (up and octave or two).

Personally...I learned a lot from Interpol on how gracefully these transposed triadic chords can work together in harmonies.

I may be far off on my terminology. For the best explanation of chord transposition and inversion I can think of, look up Run Like Hell from Pink Floyd. the main riff has a chord being transposed a handful of times.

 

[Nightburst]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

Woa...Well first of all, thanks for the suggestions guys.

I'm aware of the Dropped tuning thing not being populair by many 'old skool' guys here but hey thats my choice. I do not understand all the pun involved or the need to educate me on a band 'frequency' setting and calling me a 'chugger' or whatnot. Thats totally uncalled for and quite rude tbh. Sad to see this place become like this now. How can u put something like that on here seriously? Laughing for one hour? WTF man. U make fun of a band that sold millions yet u only know one song and watch cartoons... Plz do me a favour and go be a nerd somewhere else please, your not funny and certainly bringing nothing good on the table here. yes im talking to you 'jon the art guy'.

Furthermore I do not understand people saying, play more... It's not like I wont play the guitar anyways? I just dont see a point in playing just to play, I need some goals to achieve anything, hence my question here. I just pick something I want to learn and I go for it. Telling someone who has been playing the guitar for years to start all over again is not a realistic thing IMO. Thanks for trying tho.
I guess my question is more on how to appraoch the guitar in a dropped tuning, it throws me off when I think about the small amount of theory I have mastered.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

I guess my question is more on how to appraoch the guitar in a dropped tuning, it throws me off when I think about the small amount of theory I have mastered.

Musically, it seems the issue of dropped tuning is redundant ... if you feel more theory will widen your scope musically, it doesn't matter what register the guitar is tuned to. Personally I'd recommend looking at the 'CAGED' system, using the associated arpeggios for each of the five open-chord shapes. They're shapes you will already know, the 'cowboy chords'. When you think of them as shapes, it certainly won't matter where the guitar is tuned (assuming the relationship across the strings is still the same set of intervals used in the traditional 'EADGBE').

The CAGED system shows how the five shapes connect to give complete coverage of a full octave (12 frets) on the fretboard. If you learn the arpeggios of those 5 shapes, you will then be able to cover a full octave with the arpeggios, and with each shape, in any position on the neck, you can use your favourite little tricks and twiddly bits for each shape.

Basically with this system, you don't have to learn a great deal of new stuff as it's based on chord shapes you already know. It's more about the relationships and connectivity, it fills in the gaps and allows you to see a familiar grid all over the fretboard in any key. You should be able to make progress immediately.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

I guess my question is more on how to appraoch the guitar in a dropped tuning, it throws me off when I think about the small amount of theory I have mastered.

Thats the thing. Its not about what tuning you use. Its about mastering the music theory. Once you get that stuff down, it wont matter at all what tuning you choose. You'll be able to play the stuff you are after in any tuning. Music, music theory, and what arpeggios or scales sound good with what chords is the same on any instrument whether its keyboard, guitar violin or saxaphone.

Its got nothing to do with prejudices about old skool, or new skool or anything like that. People have been using dropped and alternate tunings since before the electric guitar was invented on instruments like the lute and the vihuela and even the torres classical guitar and the resonator. This stuff is not new by any stretch of the imagination. Don't fall in to the trap of thinking that dropped tunings and big powerful distorted amplifier tones have reinvented the wheel. People have had this stuff worked out for hundreds of years. genre is just speaking the same language with a slightly different accent.

Given that you already know that you only have a small amount of theory, go work on expanding it! Buy some books.Try CHORDS AND PROGRESSIONS by bugs bower for a start - or some of the titles in the guitar grimoire series. There is an enormous amount of choice out there from publishers like Hal Leonard, Progressive. National Guitar Workshop and many others. A google search will show you a range of books that will suit you and your current knowledge base as well as reading ability or preference for tab (although tab only has pretty limited use when it comes to learning theory and arpeggios and transposition etc). Its not about how many years you have been playing, its about how many minutes and hours you have spent working towards your goals and how methodically you employed those minutes.

Crusty's idea about the CAGED system is a good one. But again, how much of it you can use is based in some regular nuts and bolts music theory too. That's the important bit - that, and knowing every note in every position on your fingerboard.

 

[Securb]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

+1^ You also might want to do some reading on chord inversions. This will open up different voicings for the chords you are playing. Once again you have to understand arpeggios to fully grasp chord inversions. There is some homework and practice (playing just to play) involved in what you are trying to accomplish. You sound like you have a desire to learn this stuff and goal for what you want to accomplish that is half the battle, good luck.

 

[Nightburst]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

Thx guys, back to the drawing board I guess.

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

Woa...Well first of all, thanks for the suggestions guys.

I'm aware of the Dropped tuning thing not being populair by many 'old skool' guys here but hey thats my choice. I do not understand all the pun involved or the need to educate me on a band 'frequency' setting and calling me a 'chugger' or whatnot. Thats totally uncalled for and quite rude tbh. Sad to see this place become like this now. How can u put something like that on here seriously? Laughing for one hour? WTF man. U make fun of a band that sold millions yet u only know one song and watch cartoons... Plz do me a favour and go be a nerd somewhere else please, your not funny and certainly bringing nothing good on the table here. yes im talking to you 'jon the art guy'.

LOL allow me to retort.
I'm about as old-school as a Hybrid. I'm all about detuning, alternate tuning and drone, at least right now. Hoobastank is a laughable band via name alone, and they're pop-metal. Going to the battlefield in support of a pop metal band is silly.

YOU need to grow a skin and read what I wrote for you. If you don't want to conflict with your bassist and don't want to muddy up your amp tone, you'll use your heavy strings for flavor and gravitas to the chorus and the non-singing parts. If you know about band frequencies, what are you looking for in this then? Some ego stroking "AWWW YOU'LL BE OKAY YOU'LL FIGURE IT OUT" No, I was suggesting things. Take it or leave it.

Or not. Keep doing what you're doing.

And yes, I'll continue to laugh at Hoobastank.

 

[Nightburst]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

LOL allow me to retort.
I'm about as old-school as a Hybrid. I'm all about detuning, alternate tuning and drone, at least right now. Hoobastank is a laughable band via name alone, and they're pop-metal. Going to the battlefield in support of a pop metal band is silly.

YOU need to grow a skin and read what I wrote for you. If you don't want to conflict with your bassist and don't want to muddy up your amp tone, you'll use your heavy strings for flavor and gravitas to the chorus and the non-singing parts. If you know about band frequencies, what are you looking for in this then? Some ego stroking "AWWW YOU'LL BE OKAY YOU'LL FIGURE IT OUT" No, I was suggesting things. Take it or leave it.

Or not. Keep doing what you're doing.

And yes, I'll continue to laugh at Hoobastank.

Look, if you dont understand what I'm saying... Noone asked you to come in here and be a huge d.ouche.bag. Thx for your 'suggestions' and please gtfo this topic. There's nothing here for you left to do but to make an even bigger ass out of yourself so please!
I never asked for a lecture about how bass players would feel. And I also seriously doubt u would have the balls to say this in my face, being all tough guy behind your desk in your little wank room. I dare you to post something you played so we can laugh at your 'million dollar' guitar parts. Do you have the balls to do that? I'm serious I wanna hear that 'elite' stuff of yours that makes you think your better than anyone.
Battlefield? LOL maybe u need some help I dont know man...

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

So angry.

What exactly was it that differentiated my post from the other posts that said similar things that got you riled up enough to bring physical threats into it or consider me a gear slut?
Do a search. I finally posted a vid of me lousily chopping some drop D on my cheap and only rig. It's in the make a video thread...feel free to head over there and mercilessly mock me.

I laughed at Hoobastank. Are you...

wait, are you THE Hoobastank? Johnny Hoobastank? Or Jimmy or something? That must be the reason.

That must be the reason you think I'm "coming at you". Sounds like as good a reason as any to ignore.

 

[Big Flannel]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

More like HoobaSUCK

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

Look, if you dont understand what I'm saying... Noone asked you to come in here and be a huge d.ouche.bag. Thx for your 'suggestions' and please gtfo this topic. There's nothing here for you left to do but to make an even bigger ass out of yourself so please!I never asked for a lecture about how bass players would feel. And I also seriously doubt u would have the balls to say this in my face, being all tough guy behind your desk in your little wank room. I dare you to post something you played so we can laugh at your 'million dollar' guitar parts. Do you have the balls to do that? I'm serious I wanna hear that 'elite' stuff of yours that makes you think your better than anyone.Battlefield? LOL maybe u need some help I dont know man...

You need to calm down a bit dude. Realize that Hoobastank is about as highly regarded as Nickelback. That said, Jon's advice is sound. You should absolutely be concerned about what the bass is doing and how it interacts with what you're playing, in terms of both frequency and melody.

 

[zenmindbeginner]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

If you want to write engaging and meaningful music that is original and comes from the heart... you won't need much theory.

Hoobastank stuff is usually major or minor... no actual modes are necessary to exhaust that format.

Personally, drop tuning has the majority of it's beauty in the sound of the open strings so experimenting with drones or pedals is a great place to start.

another great place to start is developing a melody line and the power chords that drive underneath the melody line. Then incorporate the melody line into the underlying power chords using extended harmonies.

You'll end up with a sweet sounding chord progression that is melodic and also drives the song.

None of this requires any music theory.

 

[Nightburst]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

If you want to write engaging and meaningful music that is original and comes from the heart... you won't need much theory.

Hoobastank stuff is usually major or minor... no actual modes are necessary to exhaust that format.

Personally, drop tuning has the majority of it's beauty in the sound of the open strings so experimenting with drones or pedals is a great place to start.

another great place to start is developing a melody line and the power chords that drive underneath the melody line. Then incorporate the melody line into the underlying power chords using extended harmonies.

You'll end up with a sweet sounding chord progression that is melodic and also drives the song.

None of this requires any music theory.

Thanks bro, this is some great advice.


Please stop the hate guys, I dont take kindly of people who think they are funny and show no respect at all for someone else's taste.
If you think something is bad you dont have to start licking each others bu.tts on a guitar forum and troll the hell out of a threat that was meant to be informative for myself and maybe others too.
If you dont like it or have anything usefull to say get out please, there is nothing here for you to see or hear. Oh and Jon the Jerk Guy: No I'm most certainly not going to search for your music, the fact that you don't even have the guts to actually post something or maybe even a link says enough about you as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Big Flannel]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

Thanks bro, this is some great advice.


Please stop the hate guys, I dont take kindly of people who think they are funny and show no respect at all for someone else's taste.
If you think something is bad you dont have to start licking each others bu.tts on a guitar forum and troll the hell out of a threat that was meant to be informative for myself and maybe others too.
If you dont like it or have anything usefull to say get out please, there is nothing here for you to see or hear. Oh and Jon the Jerk Guy: No I'm most certainly not going to search for your music, the fact that you don't even have the guts to actually post something or maybe even a link says enough about you as far as I'm concerned.

Relax man, it was just a little rub. Now that we can gauge your sense of humor it probably won't happen anymore. Good luck in your theoretical endeavors.

 

[Rockstar216]

Re: What theory to look for when playing dropped C and still sound fresh?

Checkout this guys channel and website he has a lot of useful info for people wanting to get into learning the theory side of music. https://www.youtube.com/user/JustinSandercoe

As for the music you listen too that band is mostly in Major(Ionian mode) and Minor(Aeolian mode) and mostly use power chords or major and minor triads.

Also lighten up a lil bit I'm sure nobody here is trying to make fun of you personally. Also remember great music depends on the listeners point of view. Me I like Hoobastank as well a Nickelback along with tons of other genres of music. Do people poke fun? Of course but I listen to music because I like it not because of what other people say about it.

Oh and just FYI they are FAAAAAR from making millions not even close but they get to do what they love for a living.