What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

[uOpt]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

Interestingly the most commonly given answer here is "didn't buy for reasons not listed, such as lack of cash".

Maybe a new design, which I think we aim for simplicity anyway, should also take this into account. If there is a way to make the forum pickup priced lower than the fugly that seems an important goal.

 

[superpete]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

I love the idea of a user group pickup, but we've proven that without a unified goal in mind (ie the Brobucker), we're no good on our own. And why should we be? If I want a hot bridge pickup and you want a smooth neck pickup and he wants a p90 in the bridge of a tele and she wants a filtertron in a strat, where's the common ground? At this point I wish once a year or whenever the SD Custom Shop themselves decide "hey we can do a hotter phat cat, an aged pearly gates, or an a4 paf, (or 3 other pickups, doesn't matter) Vote on it and we'll get you special pricing".

 

[LtKojak]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

I wish once a year or whenever the SD Custom Shop themselves decide "hey we can do a hotter phat cat, an aged pearly gates, or an a4 paf, (or 3 other pickups, doesn't matter) Vote on it and we'll get you special pricing".

That would a good idea looking at the practical side of things... however it won't be a "Forum" p'up anymore... however, it'll be the lesser of all evils, if you ask me.

 

[dominus]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

Interestingly the most commonly given answer here is "didn't buy for reasons not listed, such as lack of cash".

Maybe a new design, which I think we aim for simplicity anyway, should also take this into account. If there is a way to make the forum pickup priced lower than the fugly that seems an important goal.

Perhaps they can have tiered pricing based on numbers produced. That's the way a lot of companies do "group buys".

So far only 6 people have said that they didn't buy it for reasons not listed. Should have had a poll that listed who voted for which option *and* asked that people leave a comment on why they didn't buy it. The option - "Sound: I didn't like what the community aimed for" isn't the same as "I had no idea what the hell people were going on about and lost interest"

 

[Davii]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

I'm a bit lost here - wasn't the last forum designed pup the Hy-Bro?

 

[Masta' C]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

The many hurdles of forum pickup design:

• We've lost much of the forum "bro" camaraderie that surrounded most of the early forum designs. Respect has taken a back seat in many cases (we're ALL guilty of this to some extent).
  
• Many "gaps" in the product line have already been filled. The market is currently saturated with lower-priced production options that work for 95% of players out there. With the prominence of mag-swapping, hybrids and past forum designs, even more of the perceived gaps have been filled.
  
• The standard Custom Shop lineup is astounding and continues to grow. There's a good chance that if the production line doesn't do it, one of the popular Custom Shop options does. Furthermore, the majority of players who have ultra-specific requirements tend go direct to the Custom Shop anyway and avoid the wait and hassle (and potential disappointment) of a forum-designed option.
  
• Following the above points, it's becoming difficult to warrant an entirely "new" model of our own without resorting to more extreme ideas. Unfortunately, many members here remain hardcore traditionalists who aren't able to step outside of the 60-year old design box when it comes to pickup design and appearance...even if it's only every once in a while, such as with the Fuglybucker.
  
• "Too many cooks in the kitchen"...Most forum members enter the design process with a fairly specific and often highly personal goal in mind, making it very difficult for many members to agree on and support the final product. As I often point out, most members would be best served by simply ordering their desired pickup straight from the custom shop, but the appeal of a discount seems to keep the competition high in design threads.
  
• Too many members get heated and/or throw in the towel when the community design doesn't go their way.
  
• The company has been rather inconsistent in their enthusiasm toward supporting forum designs, particularly in the years since the Fuglybucker. Clearly, they would rather design pickups for smiling, high-profile artists than a group of frowning internet hobbyists and I can't say I blame them! We've created our own monster...

If I were SD, I would scrap forum pickups altogether and simply offer a special, forum-only discount to registered members once a year for Custom Shop orders, leaving all of us to ponder and discuss all the cool things we're going to order when the forum-only sale comes around.

Limited group buys could still be an option if arranged properly (i.e. "Hey guys, I want to approach the Custom Shop about ordering a small run of underwound, A4-equipped '59s at a discount...who's with me?"), but the forum pickup and the design process as we know it has become a recipe for disaster and breeds community disdain.

 

[Leon Of Late]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

I love the idea of a user group pickup, but we've proven that without a unified goal in mind (ie the Brobucker), we're no good on our own. And why should we be? If I want a hot bridge pickup and you want a smooth neck pickup and he wants a p90 in the bridge of a tele and she wants a filtertron in a strat, where's the common ground? At this point I wish once a year or whenever the SD Custom Shop themselves decide "hey we can do a hotter phat cat, an aged pearly gates, or an a4 paf, (or 3 other pickups, doesn't matter) Vote on it and we'll get you special pricing".

The many hurdles of forum pickup design:

• We've lost much of the forum "bro" camaraderie that surrounded most of the early forum designs. Respect has taken a back seat in many cases (we're ALL guilty of this to some extent).
  
• Many "gaps" in the product line have already been filled. The market is currently saturated with lower-priced production options that work for 95% of players out there. With the prominence of mag-swapping, hybrids and past forum designs, even more of the perceived gaps have been filled.
  
• The standard Custom Shop lineup is astounding and continues to grow. There's a good chance that if the production line doesn't do it, one of the popular Custom Shop options does. Furthermore, the majority of players who have ultra-specific requirements tend go direct to the Custom Shop anyway and avoid the wait and hassle (and potential disappointment) of a forum-designed option.
  
• Following the above points, it's becoming difficult to warrant an entirely "new" model of our own without resorting to more extreme ideas. Unfortunately, many members here remain hardcore traditionalists who aren't able to step outside of the 60-year old design box when it comes to pickup design and appearance...even if it's only every once in a while, such as with the Fuglybucker.
  
• "Too many cooks in the kitchen"...Most forum members enter the design process with a fairly specific and often highly personal goal in mind, making it very difficult for many members to agree on and support the final product. As I often point out, most members would be best served by simply ordering their desired pickup straight from the custom shop, but the appeal of a discount seems to keep the competition high in design threads.
  
• Too many members get heated and/or throw in the towel when the community design doesn't go their way.
  
• The company has been rather inconsistent in their enthusiasm toward supporting forum designs, particularly in the years since the Fuglybucker. Clearly, they would rather design pickups for smiling, high-profile artists than a group of frowning internet hobbyists and I can't say I blame them! We've created our own monster...

If I were SD, I would scrap forum pickups altogether and simply offer a special, forum-only discount to registered members once a year for Custom Shop orders, leaving all of us to ponder and discuss all the cool things we're going to order when the forum-only sale comes around.

Limited group buys could still be an option if arranged properly (i.e. "Hey guys, I want to approach the Custom Shop about ordering a small run of underwound, A4-equipped '59s at a discount...who's with me?"), but the forum pickup and the design process as we know it has become a recipe for disaster and breeds community disdain.

These and the other similarly worded replies.

The user base is too diverse on what they want and like. Whether it's old geezers or whatever you want to call it, the "old forum" used to be made up of more similar musicians with more similar likes, tastes and desires.

Perhaps dividing the pickup into two separate camps would help. One group could design a "vintage inspired" or whatever you want to call it and the other group can design something more modern or funky. Maybe then you can tally interest on both and see which wins, or submit both designs to the company for a final decision.

The last thing anyone needs is to stir up a bunch of hard feelings among the members again. We need more unity, not less.

 

[dave74]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

Glad I'm young here and missed it all! lol

 

[uOpt]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

I dunno about the pessimism. The other forum pickups went well, didn't they? I don't have sales information, but nobody ever thought they had to fix anything about the process that led to brobucker, strabro, phat staple etc

It's not hopeless.

Also, it seems that MJ is able to actually make the sound we are describing. For all that went bad with the Fugly MJ did perfectly, at least as far as I have seen.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

I dunno about the pessimism. The other forum pickups went well, didn't they? I don't have sales information, but nobody ever thought they had to fix anything about the process that led to brobucker, strabro, phat staple etc

It's not hopeless.

Also, it seems that MJ is able to actually make the sound we are describing. For all that went bad with the Fugly MJ did perfectly, at least as far as I have seen.

The Brobucker was easy. There was a group of people petitioning for a long time for SD to make the 10K PAF. After all kinds of debate it became the first forum pickup. We have the story of the StraBro above. I thought the Phat Staple was simply a custom shop creation that was offered to the forum?

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

That's a great, well thought-out post.

(I wish I could remember exactly what the judge told Vinny right before Vinny thanked him and was overruled.)

 

[Artie]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

The Brobucker was easy. There was a group of people petitioning for a long time for SD to make the 10K PAF. After all kinds of debate it became the first forum pickup.

I thought the Custom 5 was the first forum designed pickup. Simple, but it worked.

 

[chadd]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

Which is why you start with a *basic* outline and strict guidelines, and *then* people start putting deposits down. That way you keep input down to similar minded individuals.

Essentially, you will have already decided what the pickup will be at that point. It defeats the purpose of getting feedback, when a someone will have already decided what the pickup is going to be and only let people color by number.

The input of a lot of people gets rejected (often arbitrarily) and that makes them less likely to purchase or participate again. A handful of people dominate the process and their taste isn't always shared by the folks willing to put their money on the table.

 

[uOpt]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

I thought the Phat Staple was simply a custom shop creation that was offered to the forum?

Well, there is a fine line. A forum pickup also can become a regular CS pickup in the catalog.

Maybe not a bad way to go. Gives a new model a little startup boost, makes the forum citizens feel special.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

I thought the Custom 5 was the first forum designed pickup. Simple, but it worked.

Sort of. Too bright for me and not enough midrange. Not enough midrange is a recipe for too bright.

What I'd like to see from Duncan is a set of paf style pickups similar to the pafs Santana used in his Yamaha. That was one of his very best sounds, IMO. The 59B is kind of in that ballpark but not quite there.

I'd also like to see a 12K alnico bridge humbucker similar to the PRS Dragon 2 that Santana supposedly uses now.

The Dragon 1 is also a great pickup for heavier sounds. It's ceramic but for some reason has a more organic tone than the Duncan Custom.

Something similar to that would be a good seller I think because a lot of guys looking for a sound that's heavier than a paf love that Dragon I bridge pickup but it's now unavailable.

 

[Artie]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

Lew . . . stop deleting all you're words of wisdom!

Sort of. Too bright for me and not enough midrange. Not enough midrange is a recipe for too bright.

I didn't say it was perfect. I said it was the 1st.

Works for me, with a '59 in the neck. Of course, it can't be your only guitar.

Artie

 

[orpheo]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

Sort of. Too bright for me and not enough midrange. Not enough midrange is a recipe for too bright.

What I'd like to see from Duncan is a set of paf style pickups similar to the pafs Santana used in his Yamaha. That was one of his very best sounds, IMO. The 59B is kind of in that ballpark but not quite there.

I'd also like to see a 12K alnico bridge humbucker similar to the PRS Dragon 2 that Santana supposedly uses now.

The Dragon 1 is also a great pickup for heavier sounds. It's ceramic but for some reason has a more organic tone than the Duncan Custom.

Something similar to that would be a good seller I think because a lot of guys looking for a sound that's heavier than a paf love that Dragon I bridge pickup but it's now unavailable.

a 12k pup ala santana? IMHO that would be a Perpetual Burn with an A2 mag. actually, that's a really nice pickup

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

Lew . . . stop deleting all you're words of wisdom!



I didn't say it was perfect. I said it was the 1st.

Works for me, with a '59 in the neck. Of course, it can't be your only guitar.

Artie

I always pictured Seymour working on the Custom prototype and trying all the magnets and deciding that "The ceramic sounds really good...let's call that the Duncan Custom. And the Alnico 2 sounds good, a little like Van Halen. Let's call that the Custom Custom. But I don't know about the alnico 5...let's wait on that."

Anyways, some humbuckers that nail Carlos Santana's sound would be nice.

And a Duncan Custom that's a little more organic sounding than the standard Duncan Custom and more like the discontinued Dragon I bridge model.

I'd like to see those.

 

[blueman335]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

I always pictured Seymour working on the Custom prototype and trying all the magnets and deciding that "The ceramic sounds really good...let's call that the Duncan Custom. And the Alnico 2 sounds good, a little like Van Halen. Let's call that the Custom Custom. But I don't know about the alnico 5...let's wait on that."

Except that I don't think any winders try 'all the magnets' in their HB's. They seem to usually have 2 or 3 magnets that are in their comfort zone (usually ceramic, A5, & A2), and they know how various winds interact with them. I think all of the amateur experimentation on various forums worldwide has gotten some winders to loosen up and try a different magnet here or there, like an A4 (DiMarzio Master), A3 (Duncan Bonamassa bridge and Gibson PAF's), or A8 (Alt 8), and use roughcasts here or there. This is all good stuff. I'm anxious to see a big PU maker throw caution to the wind and use UOA5's in a current-production HB. Us tinkerers as a group can try more PU/mag/guitar/amp combinations than any PU maker possibly could. We may not be able to agree on forum-made PU's, but we sure can play around with endless experiments (not all of them fruitful).

 

[Masta' C]

Re: What went wrong with the last Forum Design Pickup (fuglybucker)?

Lew, I'm going to use you as a friendly example....

On one hand, your responses sort of echo those members who come in asking "which Duncan sounds like a DiMarzio Super Distortion?". The reality is that Duncan doesn't need a perfect replica of the Super Distortion in their lineup and those who want *that* sound should just go and buy the readily available DiMarzio. Same with most of the PRS pickups...if PRS has what you're after, just get those.

On the other hand, if you absolutely HAVE to have a Duncan-made pickup that sounds like a Dragon I bridge model and/or you're trying to recreate a model is no longer available, you can go straight to the Custom Shop and get one made.

Chances are, if you tried to push that same idea through the forum-design process, the pickup that would come out the other end would not be quite what you're looking for, because so many peeps would be fighting for input and changes.

It's a much safer and simpler process to special order EXACTLY what YOU want from the Custom Shop OR try to get a few members on board with your predetermined design for a discount, negating the need for a discussion over specs and desires that might result in you not getting what you were after and others not getting what they are after.

Forum pickups are dead...for now. And just because the process *used* to work, doesn't mean it's a good fit for the current state of the forum and the company.

A forum-only discount would be a great way to bring people to the forum, boost custom shop sales and keep all of us crazies from stomping on each others' ideas and egos.