What's the deal with Blackmachines?

[B2D]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

I'll say this... for the price of one Blackmachine I could get pretty deep into one or more Will Stinnett guitars.

I've never played a Blackmachine but if he keeps chucking his "seconds" into the barbeque I doubt most people will get the chance.

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

What do Blackmachine guitars cost new? Because I'm pretty sure that the prices most people here are balking at are the used prices, which are just stupid. If you buy a new one and it's 4-5K I can see that.

 

[Pierre]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

£2.3k brand new for the Feline built B6s. Which is roughly equivalent to a $2.3k in terms of US buying power. In the UK it barely buys you a PRS, or a high-end Les Paul.
As mentioned a hundred times; second-hand prices have absolutely jack-all to do with costs of materials, building, but rather conform to supply, demand, and what people are willing to pay for it. Brand new BlackMachines are no more expensive than other high-end guitars in the UK.

 

[DreX]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Pretty clearly Internet hype demand, it has become an known thing in the boutique guitar / guitar accessory industries. I sense that most of the boutique makers hate it because out of nowhere some boutique shop will become The Chosen One for reasons that don't strictly relate to merit, and of course most are not beneficiaries of the phenomenon.

Is the Tim pedal really that good, or was that internet hype too? I heard the Electro Harmonix Soul Food was a klon klone and was going for $60, compared to a Klon Centaur which costs $2000 used right now. After doing searches and watching videos, I still have no idea why a Klon Centaur might be any better than any other OD boost, but for $60 I figured SURE WHY NOT, and low and behold they're having supply problems. I guess I'm part of that whole problem.

 

[Chocklit_Thunda]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

For say a fender usa strat if I was to make one from like warmoth or something.
200 for an alder body
150 for the fender fat 50s pickups
Even without the neck, hardware and other electeonics that is already a third of the price. Warmoth is by no means a DEAL either, but if I were to use it to replicate whatever It would likely be MORE expensive.

Ok, no. I've agreed with everything you've said thus far but this, I can't. This is not only aimed at you solely but more everyone who has brought up the point. You cannot compare any (well made) hand built guitar to a warmoth /musikraft/USACG anything. Those things are spit out of a CNC production line with none of the care and attention that you get with a hand built guitar. Once you actually build your own bodies and necks and mate them You begin to realise the major difference. I've used a store bought neck on one build and I can assure you that it's not the same as if I were to have made it myself. yes the guitar plays very nicely but it's no comparison to the stuff I've built from scratch. Sure I'd never charge 15k for any of my builds but I sure as hell won't charge under 1500 either.
Building a guitar becomes a very personal experience regardless of using 3rd party hardware... You strive for perfection (a different kind of perfection as opposed to the sterile lifeless CNC precision) in your product. Something you can show others and be proud of the work you put in to it. Any builder worth their weight in salt will never put out a flawed item. You also have to take into account time, labour, materials, tool replacement/maintainence and also the fact that custom builders do t have the buying power of larger companies and hence pay much more per unit. Building a custom is a much more complicated process than screwing together a neck and body and soldering some wires.

TL;DR STOP comparing a BM to some mass produced glorified kit guitar.

Have I ever played a BM? No.
Do I agree with the BM being worth that much on any planet ever? No.
Do I agree that any pieced together partscaster will ever compare to a hand crafted BM or other custom brand? No.

 

[DreX]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

You cannot compare any (well made) hand built guitar to a warmoth /musikraft/USACG anything. Those things are spit out of a CNC production line with none of the care and attention that you get with a hand built guitar. Once you actually build your own bodies and necks and mate them You begin to realise the major difference. I've used a store bought neck on one build and I can assure you that it's not the same as if I were to have made it myself. yes the guitar plays very nicely but it's no comparison to the stuff I've built from scratch. Sure I'd never charge 15k for any of my builds but I sure as hell won't charge under 1500 either.
Building a guitar becomes a very personal experience regardless of using 3rd party hardware...

Can you elaborate on those major differences? Combining the lack of specifics with the obvious emotional investment hints strongly that the differences might be more perceived than real, or the very least, matters of preference rather than quality.

One thing I know about cheaper machine made guitars is that they seems a little too perfect, with geometry that's simple and neat where as a hand made guitar has slight variations all over that you know are there but are hard to identify without getting out measurement devices. It's like the difference between a 3-D model and the real artifact. If that's all we're talking about, that's fine, but let's not say that slight imperfections, no matter how pleasant they may be, is itself a mark of superior quality. I'd say that it's a characteristic of a thing that if you want, you must be willing to pay a lot more for. Like hand wired stop boxes. You're just paying for the satisfaction of knowing that you robbed a human being of an hour or two of their life, and that little piece of their soul is in the stomp box, and that of course makes it sound better, like $500 better.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

I just looked over them and they look ****ing rad! i saw PeteC say once that on a 3g guitar ''hand made'' he would be making less than $6 an hour. So considering what some **** ass trades get paid $70plus/hr suddenly 5 to 10k isn't all that bad.

As an example just the other week i had a quote to polish the cement in my 7x11m shed and they wanted 6 ****ing thousand. :barf: Not to mention mechanics. panel beaters,plumbers and builders.

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Ok, no. I've agreed with everything you've said thus far but this, I can't. This is not only aimed at you solely but more everyone who has brought up the point. You cannot compare any (well made) hand built guitar to a warmoth /musikraft/USACG anything. Those things are spit out of a CNC production line with none of the care and attention that you get with a hand built guitar. Once you actually build your own bodies and necks and mate them You begin to realise the major difference. I've used a store bought neck on one build and I can assure you that it's not the same as if I were to have made it myself. yes the guitar plays very nicely but it's no comparison to the stuff I've built from scratch. Sure I'd never charge 15k for any of my builds but I sure as hell won't charge under 1500 either.
Building a guitar becomes a very personal experience regardless of using 3rd party hardware... You strive for perfection (a different kind of perfection as opposed to the sterile lifeless CNC precision) in your product. Something you can show others and be proud of the work you put in to it. Any builder worth their weight in salt will never put out a flawed item. You also have to take into account time, labour, materials, tool replacement/maintainence and also the fact that custom builders do t have the buying power of larger companies and hence pay much more per unit. Building a custom is a much more complicated process than screwing together a neck and body and soldering some wires.

TL;DR STOP comparing a BM to some mass produced glorified kit guitar.

Have I ever played a BM? No.
Do I agree with the BM being worth that much on any planet ever? No.
Do I agree that any pieced together partscaster will ever compare to a hand crafted BM or other custom brand? No.

I wouldn't underestimate the partscasters bro. Blackie and the Frankenstrat were partscasters. To me a good guitar is a good guitar and a fair price is a fair price. I don't care if it's made in china by 100 dudes or make in the UK by one dude, because everything is crafted by hand to a degree and everything is crafted by a machine. If I go the other route I had a G&L custom made for me for $1200. Beautiful 2 piece ash, G&L locking saddle bridge designed, made and installed in house, pickups installed that you can't find anywhere else, my own gloss burst finish, a neck pocket tighter than anything, and the set up was perfect for a year out of the box. It feels extremely comfortable and balanced, has tone for generations. This is the same with every one I have played. If I got a 2 humbucker guitar one I would get all that quality, detail and looks as well as the "hand craftsmanship" for clear over 1k under what a blackmachine would be. And THEY make their own bridges and pickups and everything. Cost is still way down. The reason I bring the parts casters into this is because most of what makes up the Blackmachines IS 3rd party parts except for the body, which is very plain and slab like with only a couple of contours, supposed chambering aside, and a neck which I assume is amazing or even the best one ever but will wear like any other neck because it still has just one traditional truss rod and nickel silver frets. It's a bolt together 2hb strat, it was MEANT to be mass assembled and easy to make. The only reason one of these should cost so much is because there is antiquity or celebrity value attatched. I get demand and exclusivity though, that actually answered my original question here. Now there are people here trying to justify the price outside of the actual instrument.

 

[DreX]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

It's a bolt together 2hb strat, it was MEANT to be mass assembled and easy to make

Ha, that is ironic. That's the sadist thing about the price and demand for them is that features which are more time consuming and costly can be found on much cheaper guitars. This wouldn't be the first time guitarists paid tons extra for "magic", though.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

For say a fender usa strat if I was to make one from like warmoth or something.
200 for an alder body
150 for the fender fat 50s pickups
Even without the neck, hardware and other electeonics that is already a third of the price. Warmoth is by no means a DEAL either, but if I were to use it to replicate whatever It would likely be MORE expensive.

Fender isn't paying Warmoth prices for materials, and you're not trying to make a living selling your Warmoth-casters. Those evil "markups" in the business world aren't just to punish the consumer, you know.

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Fender isn't paying Warmoth prices for materials, and you're not trying to make a living selling your Warmoth-casters. Those evil "markups" in the business world aren't just to punish the consumer, you know.

No duh, the point is a fallacy because it FAVORS BLACKMACHINE. BM is likely using unfinished blanks of wood for the neck and body and are cutting and shaping them. Warmoth stuff is overpriced, put together a strat on warmoth and you will end up paying a little MORE than a US strat for JUST THE MATERIALS yet I can pay for the materials 2x over on warmoth and pay a pro luthier to put it together and still save money as opposed to buying a BM. I can make 2-3 BM clones through that with only assembling it, or even paying someone else to do it is my point. Fender makes tons of their own stuff so they get major profit even at low prices. Blackmachine has the neck and body only which are likely cut from blanks. Mark ups don't bother me one bit and I expect luthiers to profit for what they do obviously, my point is the excess involved with black machine only.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

No duh, the point is a fallacy because it FAVORS BLACKMACHINE.

The fallacy of a point is not demonstrated by whom it favors. The fallacy of this particular point is that I'm just busting your chops over the Fender comparison.

If Warmoth is your preferred way of acquiring bolt-on guitars, more power to you. The economics make sense for you as a consumer, but just remember that there are other viewpoints from which to analyze these types of business models.

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

The fallacy of a point is not demonstrated by whom it favors. The fallacy of this particular point is that I'm just busting your chops over the Fender comparison.

If Warmoth is your preferred way of acquiring bolt-on guitars, more power to you. The economics make sense for you as a consumer, but just remember that there are other viewpoints from which to analyze these types of business models.

Funny I actually don't own a single one right?

 

[J E C]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

If some one wants to pay $15K for a BM......let them, it's there choice. I have never played one let alone even seen one other than pics, so I can not comment as to there quality, playability or sound. They look nice, but are pretty simplistic, but that may be part of there charm/allure/mystique/charisma that the purchaser is after/wants. If I could get $15K for one of mine I would be tickled pink that some one wanted one of MY GUITARS, that I designed and built with my own two hand. Would I ever charge that much? I don't think so. There are many builders that get $15K and more for there instrument. Are they getting rich because of it? NO. There are a lot of builders out there that should be getting a lot more for what they do. So with that said....I can't afford to pay that much for an instrument, but to any one out there that can and has....that is awesome! Would you mind sharing your prized BM (or what ever it may be) with use? Pics and a short blurb about it and what makes it so special.
Thank you, John

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

If some one wants to pay $15K for a BM......let them, it's there choice. I have never played one let alone even seen one other than pics, so I can not comment as to there quality, playability or sound. They look nice, but are pretty simplistic, but that may be part of there charm/allure/mystique/charisma that the purchaser is after/wants. If I could get $15K for one of mine I would be tickled pink that some one wanted one of MY GUITARS, that I designed and built with my own two hand. Would I ever charge that much? I don't think so. There are many builders that get $15K and more for there instrument. Are they getting rich because of it? NO. There are a lot of builders out there that should be getting a lot more for what they do. So with that said....I can't afford to pay that much for an instrument, but to any one out there that can and has....that is awesome! Would you mind sharing your prized BM (or what ever it may be) with use? Pics and a short blurb about it and what makes it so special.
Thank you, John

I wonder which model sold for 15k actually if that is true. I know of one that sold for 18k but I always thought that was a one off. And I have to say, I love simple but quality guitars. If I were to design a custom guitar from the ground up it would be similar to a typical blackmachine but with only one pickup.

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Can anyone answer the question I posed in an earlier post - They don't actually sell new for over 10 grand, do they? Because it seems like those are used prices to me, and I don't understand why people would get butthurt over a builder charging that much when he's actually not.

 

[SteveAtkinson]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

No woodworker or luthier I have ever met wastes materials. Until I hear it from the guy who does it, it is BS. It still smells of an 'internet sensation' business model. And from what I've seen, many people can buy a lot more guitar for a lot less.

Carvin puts their guitars through a bandsaw if they don't make it through quality check (I've seen video of this, though I can't find it quickly, so I apologize for not sharing). While the fire might be a bit sensationalist, it's completely realistic that, in order to preserve their reputation for putting out exclusively perfect merchandise, brands will compeltely destroy duds.

The question is what degree of imperfection constitutes a "dud". It only makes sense that someone (single builder or company) has to have the highest standards out there. I'm not saying it's Doug (I've never seen a BM in real life), but I'd just like to meet your skepticism with some of my own.

 

[SteveAtkinson]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

So that's where the cost is coming from? Us reimbursing him for the expensive materials he decides to destroy when one little thing is flawed? Does this sound stupid to anyone else?

I seem to remember reading someone saying that Doug quoted him 1500 GBP for a build.

The $15k price tags we're currently seeing aren't being sold directly from Doug; they're used BMs. Given that it doesn't seem possible to buy a BM from Doug himself as of now, I guess that there isn't any truly relevant data on this matter.

Is there anyone around who can relay what BMs sold for when bought directly from Doug?

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Carvin puts their guitars through a bandsaw if they don't make it through quality check (I've seen video of this, though I can't find it quickly, so I apologize for not sharing). While the fire might be a bit sensationalist, it's completely realistic that, in order to preserve their reputation for putting out exclusively perfect merchandise, brands will compeltely destroy duds.

Ernie Ball also disposes of any guitars that someone like Gibson would sell as standards.

I doubt that Doug would toss a fully assembled guitar. If it happened once (perhaps out of sheer frustration or something similar) I could understand it. But even if he'd only destroyed a couple of complete but imperfect guitars he'd be out perfectly good hardware. Nobody that can make an instrument that fine is that stupid. (Unless he does it so he can say he did it to add to his mystique)

 

[SteveAtkinson]

Re: What's the deal with Blackmachines?

Can anyone answer the question I posed in an earlier post - They don't actually sell new for over 10 grand, do they? Because it seems like those are used prices to me, and I don't understand why people would get butthurt over a builder charging that much when he's actually not.

They don't sell new.

http://www.blackmachine.net/ordering.htm