What's the fat on these Nightswans?

[Chistopher]

I saw an ad for one on Facebook Marketplace and a few threads on this and other forums have got me pining for one. First, I would like to know what the main draw is for those of you who have played them before. What pickups would work best for this HHx guitar? I've heard FSm/JBb is the traditional combo, but what else works? Also, what else sets this model apart from other Kramers?

 

[Mincer]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Attachment to Vivian Campbell, for one. They were also smaller bodies that just seemed to work for that kind of music. They were fairly rare, and expensive at the time.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

I'm friggin in love with my A5 Distortion neck/Full Shred neck hybrid for middle position. JB is too much output for middle position, although it will work just not ideal. If you wanted to go stock a Full Shred neck or a Demon would be perfect. Maybe even a 59/Custom hybrid.

 

[metalchurch79]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

They're short scale with an ebony board and R1 nut and mahogany body which are a few of the unique specs not found on other Kramers. Made for a few years only and attributed to Vivian...
The Full Shred is about perfect for the bridge but the JB middle kinda sucks to be honest, but its such a rare guitar I left mine alone because I like Full Shreds and never use the middle or a neck pickup for that matter...

Most guys actually leave them stock from what Ive seen, save for a few with EMG-81's but Ive never personally heard what they sound like... Saw one with an SH-6 but once again never heard it.. The rest of the guys prob keep them under their bed hoping for a good return which is their loss... The prices have gone thru the roof on these lately, which is out right ridiculous if you ask me... Ive routinely seen them go from $2,500 but mostly its been in the $3,500 to $6500 price range, now granted some of those were Lightning finishes and a few Aztec finishes which are the most highly coveted examples, and they were also case queens, but still...

 

[DonP]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

What about lowering the JB and raising the poles? Wondering if that would help without mod'ing the guitar. A small mod would be a series cap with the JB to kill some bottom end.

 

[Howlermonkey]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Isn't the body a little bit smaller?

I love the specs on the nightswan but I'm buckethead's size and it may look like a toy on me.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Hmm... I'm thinking about some sort of combination between Black Winters and Nazgul/Pegasus/Sentient would work well in a Nightswan, but I can't decide which exactly would work best where.

Edit: How do yall think a Nazgul middle and Black Winter bridge would sound?

 

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

What about lowering the JB and raising the poles? Wondering if that would help without mod'ing the guitar. A small mod would be a series cap with the JB to kill some bottom end.

Just wire the JB in parallel instead of series. That will eliminate the mud.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Clint 55]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

I bet the nazgul would sound good, but I'd go for the lower output pegasus. Are you getting an HHx guitar?

 

[Chistopher]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

I bet the nazgul would sound good, but I'd go for the lower output pegasus. Are you getting an HHx guitar?

Yeah, the idea is to base it off a Nightswan. What qualities should I look for in a good middle humbucker? The only experience I have is with Black Beauties, and most of them have ended up with P90s instead.

 

[Mincer]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

I always liked the size of the Nightswan body, and thought there should've been more guitars with that size.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Yeah, the idea is to base it off a Nightswan. What qualities should I look for in a good middle humbucker? The only experience I have is with Black Beauties, and most of them have ended up with P90s instead.

Well it's the same principle as a neck pickup really just tighter and less muddy. So you can go for any sound you want. If you wanted a PAF sound you could put a PAF in there nothing wrong with that. But when you put a hot bridge pickup in the middle, it's just muddying up the position that you're supposed to be using to get a brighter sound out of. I've been going after a rock sound with my HHx. The first thing I tried was a 59 and that sounded good but the jangles weren't what I was going after. Then I tried a JB/Custom hyrbid and I thought oh this is a step in the right direction I just need something less compressed. Tried my A5 Distortion neck/Full Shred neck hybrid @ 10k and it is just a joy to play for a rock rhythm sound. It can do Fendery sounds but its main personality is a complex, gritty rock rhythm sound. I love it.

 

[Chistopher]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Well it's the same principle as a neck pickup really just tighter and less muddy. So you can go for any sound you want. If you wanted a PAF sound you could put a PAF in there nothing wrong with that. But when you put a hot bridge pickup in the middle, it's just muddying up the position that you're supposed to be using to get a brighter sound out of.

Interesting. I've always found the middle position to give a fairly weak tone for humbuckers, and thought that the Nazgul would be a great way to compensate.

 

[Clint 55]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Well yeah, middle is a little weaker than neck, but it's significantly stronger than bridge. So you don't need a hot bridge pickup. I have a double thick A8 16k in the bridge and my A5 10k middle is still set below the bridge with the screws cranked up and gives a plently thick tone.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Hi.

A bit of background information for the OP (if interested).

The Nightswans have a bit of a pedigree and a history behind them.

Their design was based on the the original Blaze Shredder VC-I made by Buddy Blaze for Vivian Campbell. Buddy then went on to work for Kramer and developed the Kramer Nightswan with Vivian.

There was a Nightswan I ("Swan I") and then a Nightswan II ("Swan II").

I have a Blaze 25th Anniversary Shredder VC-II Lightning Storm. The design and construction is identical to the Nightswan I. It really is magnificent. And its playability is unsurpassed. What makes these guitars different is (among other things) their scale length and neck construction (extremely thin neck).

All Blaze guitars and bases display the letters "MJW" in memory of Buddy and Joyce's son Matt.

Interesting to note that the "Lightning Storm" design was the subject of some controversy involving Dimebag Darrell and Dean Guitars.

History: http://www.buddyblaze.com/history/

Litigation: https://www.metalinsider.net/legal-woes/guy-that-designed-dimebag-darrells-dean-from-hell-guitar-hasnt-made-any-money

More Kramer Info.: http://www.vintagekramer.com/night.htm

(Mine is a "case queen"!!! LOL!!!).

Regards,

Dale.

 

[metalchurch79]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

The Buddy Blaze Shredders have very little in common with a Nightswan save for the 24-3/4" scale length and pickup configuration and ping-pong inlays..
The body shape is way off, the nut width is an R2 as opposed to an R1..
The Nightswans did have a 7/8 sized body which was shared by the Kramer ProAxe to answer a previous question... I love the body shape and wish I had more like it cause it's easy to throw around and lean against stuff. LOL

He didn't even paint the original Lightning Storm graphic which was only recently credited in a court ruling to the original artist Craig Patchin, who subsequently singed the rights over to Dime's estate, which was noted in the links by dpaterson.

I lost all respect for Buddy Webster when he waited until after Dime passed to decide to sue both his estate and Dean. Lame move.
There is some speculation that he didn't even design the original NightSwan and it's unique specs, but that's sure to come out at some point I'm sure. Most of the features were Vivian's already and were taken from his RAN guitar he owned prior to 1987...

The Nightswans are awesome and I'll never say a bad thing about them, but the "other" copies out there.... ehhhh not so much. Sorry Dale I don't mean to offend you but it is what is it man.. If you got a good one that's awesome... Too many bad QA issues for my liking ie: sub par fret work like frets popping up and sharp ends, sand marks in finishes, and to beat that he used inferior (read cheap) woods for construction. I know many guys who personally worked for him and with him and this is just the tip of it, but Im not gonna go on about it cause that's not what this thread is about, but it's hard to separate the two because you mention either the Swan or Webster and the other is bound to come up in conversation...


Christopher, if you can find a NightSwan in nice condition at a decent price go for it, otherwise get a body and a neck made and build your own or have your own made cause you'll be much happier in the long run trust me.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Hello.

Wow!!! Didn't see any of THAT coming that's for sure!!! LOL!!! I think it's time for me to unsubscribe from forums for a while (that should make some around these parts happy to hear!!! LOL!!!) i.e. I seem to have a knack for "putting my foot in it". And here I was just trying to give the OP some "fat" on the Nightswans!!! LOL!!!

The above being said: I don't think it fair to just leave this "hanging out there" although THIS TOO being said it's sure not my intention to start one of those proverbial "shi*tstorms" either. And @metalchurch79: in no way am I questioning your take on things or information that you may be privy to that I am not so please bear this in mind. I just believe I need to comment on a few things i.e. at least comment on my take on things.

Interesting about the "Lightning Storm" graphic. Until I saw your post (@metalchurch79) I'd no idea that this whole thing had gone further. I did indeed look up Craig Patchin and, true enough, such award was made on 4 December 2018. As noted: I wasn't aware of this at the time of my posting. For anybody interested here's a link: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dimebag-darrell-estate-dean-guitars-181827296.html.

Sidenote: the more controversy the better for my guitar not??? LOL!!! I wonder if, given the above, Buddy is allowed to continue and complete the series with the "Lightning Storm" artwork???

I have corrected the details of my initial post on the VC-II (my) guitar by the way (for the sake of accuracy) i.e. it's based on the Nightswan I and not on the Nightswan II (sorry: my bad i.e. too many "Swans" and I get confused at my age and after all these years of "abuse"!!! LOL!!!). Specs. are identical to the Kramer Nightswan Marketing Brochure of the day (including R1 nut). The Nightswan II was very different (pickups, recessed Floyd, different body shape, different selector switch, one or two other things).

I cannot really comment comprehensively on the notion that Buddy may not have had anything to do with the design of the original Nightswan. I can only say that based on my research (one of the reasons I ordered and paid premium for "The Vivian Connection"!!! LOL!!!) I'm personally convinced that he did. There's a lot of info. on these guitars on the Internet backed up by Vivian himself so far as I can tell. Aside from anything else there's at least three different video interviews with Buddy and Vivian together discussing the origin and specs. of these guitars. But then again: THIS IS THE INTERNET!!! LOL!!! (This being said: it's hard to argue with a video).

As far as workmanship is concerned: my experience is way different. Put another way: some around these parts believe I suffer from OCD (which, in fairness, based on my "epic" Vivian thread, is understandable let's face it and, maybe, there's at least a little truth to this). Point is I am "full of it" and pedantic when it comes to this type of thing. And I certainly was not the easiest or most accommodating of customers either (to the point where at some point I figured Buddy and Joyce were gonna tell me to "beat it" and it would not have surprised me) (but they didn't obviously!!! LOL!!!). So all I can tell you is that my guitar is really and truly absolutely perfect in every single way. And not just me being biased either i.e. a few (select???) people (including our best known luthier in this country) have had the privilege of "handling" it and in all cases comments have been far more than simply complimentary. The thinness of the neck and extreme low action seem to be highlights??? All have been most complimentary of the tone and rave about the sustain (this thing can hold notes for DAYS if you allow it to!!! LOL!!!). UNFORTUNATELY for ME: it's not the tone I was after (but this sure ain't Buddy's problem or fault i.e. I didn't know "sh*t from shovel" insofar as hand made guitars are concerned when I ordered it). So my "case queen" (love that description!!! LOL!!!) gonna stay that way. Turns out I need a full scale, Alder body, with Invaders to get my tone (well: this among other things of course) i.e. same spec. as Vivian's 1983/1984 white Charvel (which apparently I'm intent upon making famous!!! LOL!!!). So yeh. Sanity and finances willing: will get Buddy to make the beast early next year (but no: no red squares on white background with skulls not unless I can lay my hands on THAT white Charvel which, I guess, would become a second "case queen"!!! LOL!!!).

And I agree with the notion of building your own (whatever guitar) or having it made. I've had two (USA) Charvels and one (USA) Jackson Soloist over the years (I'm not including my two current Jackson Dinkys in this comparison as they're cheaper, Chinese factory, models and I've spent a fair amount of money on them getting them to "my spec. and standards"). Absolutely amazing and beautiful guitars (referencing the USA stuff for the sake of fair comparison). But there is "something" about a hand made and hand crafted instrument (albeit that this was first time delving into this). And really: there's not much difference REALLY in price between some of the (factory???) artist signature and custom models and hand made. I guess the point is: get a quote (from ANY luthier of your choice) anyway as you may be pleasantly surprised (I certainly was and this in spite of my paying a hefty premium for "The Vivian Connection"!!! LOL!!!).

Anyways and to the OP: if it's "FAT" you wanted then I reckon it's "FAT" you got!!! LOL!!!

Regards,

Dale.

 

[jmh151]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Buddy Blaze built the original from Warmoth parts- and shaved down the cutaway. This has been confirmed by JC Guitars, who came into possession of the original, removed the neck, and lo and behold - turtles. You can make a similar guitar yourself from Warmoth parts

 

[metalchurch79]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Neither the VC-1 or the VC-2 have a 3pc neck or a rear mounted nut, they also do not have Schaller tuners. They also do not have a neck plate, and the lower cutaway and body shape is way off from a NightSwan. I also dont believe they came with a Full Shred/JB either.
These were built in limited numbers yet theyre STILL for sale on his site years later, so you do the math on that one.
If youve ever compared them to a Nightswan the differences are far more than the similarities no doubt.

Dpaterson, alls good bro, you have always been nice to me and its not my intention to be mean to you, in fact i didnt even realize you posted that until I was already half way thru my reply to your post.
That man lost alot of respect over the years and in my mind he may as well be Ed Roman’s cousin because of his personal and business practices.
Id absolutely Love to go into details and really rip into him cause you guys would shake your heads in disgust trust me on that one. Im not on an anti Buddy Webster campaign in any way, Im just tired of all his BS and the subject came upon I elaborated a little bit because Im certainly not going to stick up for characters like him and I wouldnt expect anyone here to either.
A lot of it is nothing new but alot has became public in the last month or so and the info is out there.

 

[dpaterson]

Re: What's the fat on these Nightswans?

Hello again.

Thanks for the replies.

Well: given your hoard of Kramers (LOL!!!) you're in a far better position than I to comment on specs. I can only go by what I'm able to find on the Internet. But I did check now that we're on the subject. Congrats.!!! You had me out with a flipping magnifying glass inspecting my guitar!!! LOL!!! (Not kidding i.e. couldn't read the name on the tuners). Neck I don't know about (although does look as though it could be at least two pieces). Grover tuners. Nut is not rear mounted. No neck plate. Cutaway and body shape I cannot compare as I don't have a Nightswan (or two or three) lying around. It does, however, have a Full Shred bridge and SH-4 JB middle. So yip. Apparently there are differences. Which means that quite a few statements I've made on these very forums are not entirely correct. For this I apologise i.e. never went into things in QUITE this detail until now. Sorry folks. (Not that I'm complaining about nor unhappy with my Blaze though i.e. let me make that clear).

As far as them still being available: true I guess. But let's be fair. I did indeed happen to find another thread around these parts i.e the one about that new Vivian Campbell Gibson LP for $5 000!!! Very amusing thread I must say!!! LOL!!! Not sure what either thread says about me let's face it i.e. I'm then apparently only 1 of either 50 (2 x Blaze runs of 25) or 1 of only 250 (Gibson run) fans of somebody who had their heyday thirty years ago as was stated!!! LOL!!! Interesting to note that in 1988 a Nightswan retailed for $1 199.95 USD. What a pity. By the time I "discovered" the Nightswan (probably the only one in the country at that time) around those years: I'd spent all my $$$ on Charvels!!! LOL!!! So thirty years later I paid more than double for my VC-II!!! LOL!!! Oh well. Still not complaining. And I ASSUME you're looking after that guitar of your's!!! LOL!!!

You seem to be pretty well connected. Be a sport and track down that flipping white Charvel for me!!! Not kidding. I have tried various avenues to no avail. And I won't stop trying until somebody tells me it doesn't exist anymore. Or until it's "queened in its case" right here in my little studio!!! LOL!!! But it has to be THAT Charvel i.e. not a copy or replica or knock off but THAT guitar (if you don't know which one I'm talking about then lemme know and I'll post a pic. here). There could very well be "commission" involved too you know!!!

But alright. I have to admit. I feel kinda rotten about posting on this thread now (my initial post). I had no idea about any of this and was just trying to provide some "fat" for the OP (and, well, anybody else that's a bit "Nightswan bef*ck" like me). I didn't mean to open a "can of worms" (didn't even know there was one up until now). So yeh. A bit difficult for me as Buddy and Joyce have been nothing other than good to me and, well, the guitar (all aspects) kinda speaks for itself really. Put another way: it's the man's income and livelihood and I don't wanna be the cause of him losing business (certainly not because of an innocent post of mine). And this is not just "any 'ol other obscure forum" either let's face it i.e. it's the Seymour Duncan forums no less. That's where I'm coming from is all.

Regards,

Dale.