where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

[Funkfingers]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

: having under rated pots is a HUGE thing,it's like playing your guitar with half the volume turned down....now,that doesn't sound good, does it?

Most of the world's best Blues guitarists might beg to differ. :cool2:

 

[David Collins]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

Black sunshine - before speaking with such certainty on these matters, and since it seems quite important to you, I suggest conducting a little test. It needs to be a blind test, so it will require the help of at least one other friend who can solder.

Take out a volume pot, and temporarily replace it with a 3 way rotary switch. Go down to your local Radio Shack and get a few packs 470kΩ, 220kΩ, and 33kΩ resistors. Measure them out on your meter, and pick out the ones that are most consistent with each other. Take two 470kΩ resistors that read consistent to each other, and connect them in series with two 33kΩ that measure consistently, giving you two approx 500kΩ resistor sets that read at least nearly identical to one another. Then repeat the test with the 220kΩ resistors, soldering up two sets of them in series, giving you two 440kΩ resistors. They don't have to be a perfect 500kΩ and 440kΩ, but they have to test very consistently with each other, i.e., it's okay if pair A is 490kΩ and pair B is 400kΩ, so long as final resistances are consistent within each pair.

Now have your friend flip a coin to decide which value gets two positions on the switch and which gets only one. Have them wire the switch so that in each position, a different resistor package is put in parallel from output to ground. Now if all this is done in secrecy from you, with no knowledge of which resistor is in which position, you should have a basis for a blind test. Of course it's only a test of volume pot values on 10, but conducting a reliable test with variable resistance pots would not only be much more cumbersome and complicated, but arguably quite unnecessary, especially if we are talking about all audio taper pots.

Now the job of you and as many willing listeners as you can gather, is to play the guitar, switch between positions A,B, and C, in real time, and identify which is the odd one out. If there are several listeners participating in the survey, answers should be written on paper, kept private, and not discussed between surveyors until all the results are in. If you feel the differences are obvious and easily heard then you can go the extra step of writing down which value each position is, but the main point in a test like this is not in describing qualities of a difference, but only establishing that it a difference is obviously and repeatedly identifiable.

Now if the differences are as enormously significant as you currently declare them to be, every person surveyed should be able to get 100% accurate results. If they are less than 100%, then a bit of statistical analysis based on the size of the survey pool would have to be done. If you had a large pool and the results came to around 33% accuracy, this would of course indicate no discernible change. Accuracy of around 60%-80%, would likely indicate some change recognizable by some listeners, but not night and day, black and white.

Of course I doubt you'll go through with this test, as why would you? Your mind is already quite made up. I personally do agree that in the right settings a difference of 20% in pot value can likely create a discernible effect. What I disagree on is that the effects should constitute a difference of fantastic vs crap tone, or even a universally agreed on better vs worse. I think you are inflating the effects to be much more than what they actually are, which I find to be a bit more subtle, and of course their quality to be quite subjective.

If you do decide to embark on this test, keep good records of your measurements and procedures, and I'll look forward to hearing back on your results, hopefully to be repeated by others for peer revue. If you decide you already know with enough certainty however, and feel no need to go through with such silly tests of something you already know, then I would suggest two things. First would be that you have no business speaking with such authority and conclusive certainty, or debasing the claims of others as you seemed eager to do in post #28 (of course neither did they have grounds to speak in such a manner from the opposite side). Second is that I would recommend reading a book such as this one, which sheds some relavent light on just how much our minds and perceptions can lure us in to a false sense of certainty that what we have heard or seen is always so infallibly accurate and true.

Good luck in your endeavors, and try your best to control some sense of objectivity and healthy skepticism before claiming absolute certainty in effects of factors like this.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

I like THIS post. :naughty:

I especially like the random use of commas.

 

[crguti]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

:haha:

 

[Jessie's ghost]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

Second is that I would recommend reading a book such as this one, which sheds some relavent light on just how much our minds and perceptions can lure us in to a false sense of certainty that what we have heard or seen is always so infallibly accurate and true.

Looks like an interesting book, but I don't see why results are so shocking. I mean, if I'm focusing on counting basketball passes, why should I notice something so completely irrelevant and potentially detrimental to my counting of basketball passes?

It reminds me of one of the Sherlock Holmes stories, where Dr. Watson (as narrator) expresses incredulity at the detective's not knowing that the Earth revolves around the sun. Holmes replies with something like, "Why should it matter to me whether we go around the sun, whether we go around the moon, or whether the sun and the moon both go around us? It makes no difference to me or my work."

I see what you're getting at, though. If I were getting up one morning and preparing for the results of a cancer biopsy, I probably wouldn't notice if someone had replaced my usual coffee with dark, sparkling Folgers crystals.

Funny -- it's almost like the human brain is hard-wired to focus on the things that master most at the time. Or something.

 

[Kam]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

Black sunshine - before speaking with such certainty on these matters, and since it seems quite important to you, I suggest conducting a little test. It needs to be a blind test, so it will require the help of at least one other friend who can solder.

Take out a volume pot, and temporarily replace it with a 3 way rotary switch. Go down to your local Radio Shack and get a few packs 470kΩ, 220kΩ, and 33kΩ resistors. Measure them out on your meter, and pick out the ones that are most consistent with each other. Take two 470kΩ resistors that read consistent to each other, and connect them in series with two 33kΩ that measure consistently, giving you two approx 500kΩ resistor sets that read at least nearly identical to one another. Then repeat the test with the 220kΩ resistors, soldering up two sets of them in series, giving you two 440kΩ resistors. They don't have to be a perfect 500kΩ and 440kΩ, but they have to test very consistently with each other, i.e., it's okay if pair A is 490kΩ and pair B is 400kΩ, so long as final resistances are consistent within each pair.

Now have your friend flip a coin to decide which value gets two positions on the switch and which gets only one. Have them wire the switch so that in each position, a different resistor package is put in parallel from output to ground. Now if all this is done in secrecy from you, with no knowledge of which resistor is in which position, you should have a basis for a blind test. Of course it's only a test of volume pot values on 10, but conducting a reliable test with variable resistance pots would not only be much more cumbersome and complicated, but arguably quite unnecessary, especially if we are talking about all audio taper pots.

Now the job of you and as many willing listeners as you can gather, is to play the guitar, switch between positions A,B, and C, in real time, and identify which is the odd one out. If there are several listeners participating in the survey, answers should be written on paper, kept private, and not discussed between surveyors until all the results are in. If you feel the differences are obvious and easily heard then you can go the extra step of writing down which value each position is, but the main point in a test like this is not in describing qualities of a difference, but only establishing that it a difference is obviously and repeatedly identifiable.

Now if the differences are as enormously significant as you currently declare them to be, every person surveyed should be able to get 100% accurate results. If they are less than 100%, then a bit of statistical analysis based on the size of the survey pool would have to be done. If you had a large pool and the results came to around 33% accuracy, this would of course indicate no discernible change. Accuracy of around 60%-80%, would likely indicate some change recognizable by some listeners, but not night and day, black and white.

Of course I doubt you'll go through with this test, as why would you? Your mind is already quite made up. I personally do agree that in the right settings a difference of 20% in pot value can likely create a discernible effect. What I disagree on is that the effects should constitute a difference of fantastic vs crap tone, or even a universally agreed on better vs worse. I think you are inflating the effects to be much more than what they actually are, which I find to be a bit more subtle, and of course their quality to be quite subjective.

If you do decide to embark on this test, keep good records of your measurements and procedures, and I'll look forward to hearing back on your results, hopefully to be repeated by others for peer revue. If you decide you already know with enough certainty however, and feel no need to go through with such silly tests of something you already know, then I would suggest two things. First would be that you have no business speaking with such authority and conclusive certainty, or debasing the claims of others as you seemed eager to do in post #28 (of course neither did they have grounds to speak in such a manner from the opposite side). Second is that I would recommend reading a book such as this one, which sheds some relavent light on just how much our minds and perceptions can lure us in to a false sense of certainty that what we have heard or seen is always so infallibly accurate and true.

Good luck in your endeavors, and try your best to control some sense of objectivity and healthy skepticism before claiming absolute certainty in effects of factors like this.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

To you

Good luck in your endeavors, and try your best to control some sense of objectivity and healthy skepticism before claiming absolute certainty in effects of factors like this. Last edited by David Collins; Today at 01:56 AM.

and the rest of the Nay Sayers

What? Are all the threads I've read in the years I've been here
EG " What pots with what Pups" are irrelevant rubbish"?

That's a lot of threads.
Does this mean all these people are talking rubbish?
I'm sure the percentage of opinion on this matter for the affirmative far outweigh your perspective.:14:

 

[David Collins]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

To you
and the rest of the Nay Sayers

What? Are all the hreads I've read in the years I've been here
EG " What pots with what Pups" are irrelevant rubbish"?

That's a lot of threads.
Does this mean all these people are talking rubbish?
I'm sure the perceentage of opinion on this matter for the affirmative far outweigh your perspective.:14:

I am a father. Therefore I cannot not be a father. Therefore I must be your father, because to say I am not would be to say that I am not a father. How can I both be a father, and not be a father?

This is the kind of reasoning that was addressed a few thousand years back in the Socratic dialogues, and is pretty much the same as that which could lead one to the assumption that I am trying to dismiss pot value as an influential factor entirely. Arguing that claimed effects of a 10-20% change may be inflated or exaggerated, is not arguing that changes at any level of resistance have no effect. Be sure to read my posts as they are written and nothing more, as I choose my words with great care to accurately convey my intentions.

Nowhere in my post did I claim or even suggest that volume pot value is not an audible factor in shaping tone. What I am arguing is that the difference of 15-20% may or may not be enough to create a clearly audible difference, and that if it does, it is foolish to assume that a particular arbitrary resistance should constitute better or worse in our subjective tastes in tone.

What I am suggesting is simply that before someone claims that anyone who can't hear a 15-20% change here must be tone-deaf, that they need to be certain they have established and least some crude sense of where the difference limen lies in this context.

Can you tell the difference between a 500kΩ and a 505kΩ volume pot? I would guess likely not. What about between a 1MΩ and a 250kΩ pot. I believe most anyone likely could. The point that lies in question, and one which I have not seen any reliable tests to establish, is what amount of change is required to be clearly and consistently identified as affecting the tone. Is it 5%, or 20%, or 50%? This will no doubt depend on a lot of variables, ranging from pickup styles to input impedance or adjustments of different amplifiers, so no results from a single simple test would be universally applicable.

Just saying that before anyone tries to claim anyone who disagrees with them must be a deaf idiot, they should have some controlled testing (or at least sound reasoning and experience) to back them up. In this particular case, I would say at the very least, that the claims of extremity of the perceived changes far outweigh what I've casually observed in my experience. I have a great deal of experience in this field, and any time claimed effects strike me as grossly more extreme or absolute than I have observed, it brings in to question the authority from which the claimant feels they are credible to speak. I'm open to the possibility of them being correct, but not without being questioned.

I never said volume pot value has no effect, or how much of a change it takes to affect a noticeable change. I'm just expressing a bit of skepticism that the effect is as great as some believe it to be, within such a relatively small difference. I have some pretty good ears, and replaced pots on hundreds, maybe thousands of guitars (haven't kept strict records), and the effects claimed by some seem at least somewhat inflated in my experience.

 

[FAC]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

listen up son,it's time for school.... having under rated pots is a HUGE thing,it's like playing your guitar with half the volume turned down....now,that doesn't sound good,does it?.....no it does not,electronics are a HUGE part of the guitar.

Um, the value of the volume pot, when on 10, does not affect the volume of the guitar, it affects the high frequencies that get through (see quote, below).

Just sayin'...since you're takin' us all to school, and such...

From stewmac.com:
The value of the volume pot used is determined by the guitar's pickup(s) and the preference of the player or builder. Generally, 250K pots are used with single-coil pickups, and 500K pots are used with humbuckers. A higher value pot can produce a brighter tone, while lower values can fatten the tone by attenuating some of the high-end frequencies. This is because that there is always a certain amount of signal going to ground, even at full volume (10 on the knob). High frequencies are the first to go to ground; therefore a lower value pot will allow more of these frequencies to pass to ground, rather than out to the amp as a part of the guitar's signal. Experiment with different value pots to see which ones work best for you.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

Holy crap, this thread is completely full of fail.


If you want to get anal about pot values, learn to communicate like a human being. Grammar. Punctuation. Paragraphs.

listen up son,it's time for school....

Seriously?? The irony is palpable.


In closing:

1. Go actually play your instruments instead of whining about placebo effects.
2. The OP is a ******bag retard.
3. You're not going to hear the difference between a 500k pot and a 480k pot in a band-setting or in a mix. The only reason you're so concerned about those minuscule differences is probably because you sit at home playing by yourself, and that's it. At least we won't have to hear your awful playing anytime soon!

 

[briggleman]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

Black sunshine - before speaking with such certainty on these matters, and since it seems quite important to you, I suggest conducting a little test. ..........Of course I doubt you'll go through with this test, as why would you? Your mind is already quite made up. I personally do agree that in the right settings a difference of 20% in pot value can likely create a discernible effect. What I disagree on is that the effects should constitute a difference of fantastic vs crap tone, or even a universally agreed on better vs worse. I think you are inflating the effects to be much more than what they actually are, which I find to be a bit more subtle, and of course their quality to be quite subjective. ...........If you do decide to embark on this test, keep good records of your measurements and procedures, and I'll look forward to hearing back on your results, hopefully to be repeated by others for peer revue. If you decide you already know with enough certainty however, and feel no need to go through with such silly tests of something you already know, then I would suggest two things. First would be that you have no business speaking with such authority and conclusive certainty, or debasing the claims of others as you seemed eager to do in post #28 (of course neither did they have grounds to speak in such a manner from the opposite side). ..........Good luck in your endeavors, and try your best to control some sense of objectivity and healthy skepticism before claiming absolute certainty in effects of factors like this.

Are you nuts!?!?!!!! You took the time to write that long procedural dialog with sporadic insults thrown in just to say it does not matter he can hear a difference.... and then you want proof from others that he can hear it!!

All that matters is that he can hear a difference, it does matter to him, and he came to this forum for help to see if anyone could help him locate some higher quality components. WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE, THAT HAVE RIDICULED AND INSULTED, NOT SEE IN THAT REQUEST. These forums are here to help us pool are collective knowledge and resources to make us all better musicians.

Mr. Collins, your long diatribes do not help ONE BIT. You wrote it with innuendo and insult and then try later to justify it with some cerebral philosophy which tells me that it was not written with kind intent or to be helpful. Very disappointed!! You seem intelligent. I would have hoped you would use that intelligence in a more helpful way.

 

[Virtual Kevorkian]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

^^Your obnoxious use of bolded text does not help ONE BIT, either.

 

[Brown Note]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

From stewmac.com:
The value of the volume pot used is determined by the guitar's pickup(s) and the preference of the player or builder. Generally, 250K pots are used with single-coil pickups, and 500K pots are used with humbuckers. A higher value pot can produce a brighter tone, while lower values can fatten the tone by attenuating some of the high-end frequencies. This is because that there is always a certain amount of signal going to ground, even at full volume (10 on the knob). High frequencies are the first to go to ground; therefore a lower value pot will allow more of these frequencies to pass to ground, rather than out to the amp as a part of the guitar's signal. Experiment with different value pots to see which ones work best for you.

This is because the coils have a specific amount of inductance and the resistor(pot at "10") is in series with the inductance. This makes a basic low pass attenuator as the inductive reactance goes up with frequency thus signal level goes down with frequency(20db/decade or 6db/octave). When the resistor value is roughly 10 times the reactance you have basically no attenuation(there is roughly 10% signal loss but this is inaudible!).

Let's assume that you have 50kohms of inductive reactance in the pickup and a 440k pot, you get roughly attenuation of 11%. If the pot was 600 kohms instead of 440k the attenuation would be 8%. Would you hear a difference when there is 3% less signal? No, you would not. That would be hard to see on an analog oscilloscope. Guitar is so dynamic signal generator that even 20% difference will be hard to distinquish.

 

[briggleman]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not underrated ones

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not underrated ones

^^Your obnoxious use of bolded text does not help ONE BIT, either.

I always use bold text and I have many reasons for it. One, I like it. Two, it stands out and is easier to read, Three, it had its intended effect and is there for a reason but it was not to be Obnoxious.

I intended for it to stand out. We are give many tools to use, by the creators of this forum, to make our posts clear, concise, and to give it our personality. I tend to use Italics when I quote someone.

I use ALL CAPS when I raise my voice in the virtual world of forums, .... By the way, was that your intent by saying "....ONE BIT,...." In your quoted text above? No need to yell. I am sorry if it was taken that way. I tend to jump on my soapbox when I see people disrespecting others in these forums and that is how I feel some have done in this case. If they believe that Pot resistance values have no influence on tone, that is fine, but to make fun of someone asking the question..... that I do not like..... and you should not either.

 

[firebirdV]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

I have turned my volume and tone down a third and completely forgotten about it for days. I don't think that 20k is going to matter in the long run (or short run for that matter).

I have to disagree with bold text being easier to read. I can't focus as easily on bright text, and the default color scheme makes bold text very large, white, and much brighter. This is good for making a single word or sentence stick out, but reading an entire paragraph in bold is very difficult for me.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

What is with all these new people with distinguished handles, obnoxious fonts and no avatars? Did they all come in on a boat or something? Why didn't anyone raise the defense? We've been invaded.

Invaded I tell you.

I wish that dog with the clever fonts would go away forever.

 

[briggleman]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not underrated ones

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not underrated ones

What is with all these new people with distinguished handles, obnoxious fonts and no avatars? Did they all come in on a boat or something? Why didn't anyone raise the defense? We've been invaded.

Invaded I tell you.

I wish that dog with the clever fonts would go away forever.

Sorry, can't do that. A lot of you, have a good bit of growing up to do. I use to be, a lot, like some of the more demeaning individuals in here. I often made fun of the less knowledgeable.... and then I realized how much more I gained when I mentored rather than ridiculed.

No, I will keep on dishing it out to you folks that would rather insult, hurt, ridicule, make fun of..... the list goes on. Its a challenge I cannot resist.

Looks like Beer$'s post got edited while I responded, I think the admins are doing a good job. I did see it though, no worries.

 

[David Collins]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

In the midst of a discussion littered with childish name calling and accusations of stupidity and deafness, I try to post a reasonable summary of why I believe the issue at hand is being given more credit than it's due. I also offer suggested methods as to how anyone genuinely interested in ascertaining how great an effect it may have could go about a blind comparison which should yield fairly reliable results to either back up their claims, or perhaps challenge them and give them reason to rethink their certainty.

And these suggestions or challenges (or diatribes, if you will) are first horribly misread as argument for no effect at all. Then I am described as nuts, and my arguments of no help at all.

Briggleman, regarding my innuendo and insult, I never pledged an oath of neutrality in sharing advice. If someone makes arguments I see as stupid, or acts like a foolish ass, I have no problem telling them they sound like a stupid ass. As to my posts being unhelpful, if the original poster simply asked where he could get accurately rated and tested pots, I would have simply said to call RS Guitars, they'll check them individually and send them out. The focus of the discussion however, shifted from where to find them to how notable their effect is long before my initial post. If anyone truly wants to answer that latter question, and is honestly interested in knowing whether they're taking penicillin or placebo, then the only way I feel my advice could be of no help at all is if one was not honestly interested in being helped.

If you want to know for sure that what you believe is true, test it out. Especially with an issue like this where objective testing can be so simple and repeatable, if you haven't tested it out or have no tests to reference, then you should think twice about calling anyone else a deaf idiot when their experience has happened to lead them to conclusions contrary to yours.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not undrated ones

I am a father. Therefore I cannot not be a father. Therefore I must be your father, because to say I am not would be to say that I am not a father. How can I both be a father, and not be a father?

This is the kind of reasoning that was addressed a few thousand years back in the Socratic dialogues, and is pretty much the same as that which could lead one to the assumption that I am trying to dismiss pot value as an influential factor entirely. Arguing that claimed effects of a 10-20% change may be inflated or exaggerated, is not arguing that changes at any level of resistance have no effect. Be sure to read my posts as they are written and nothing more, as I choose my words with great care to accurately convey my intentions.

Nowhere in my post did I claim or even suggest that volume pot value is not an audible factor in shaping tone. What I am arguing is that the difference of 15-20% may or may not be enough to create a clearly audible difference, and that if it does, it is foolish to assume that a particular arbitrary resistance should constitute better or worse in our subjective tastes in tone.

What I am suggesting is simply that before someone claims that anyone who can't hear a 15-20% change here must be tone-deaf, that they need to be certain they have established and least some crude sense of where the difference limen lies in this context.

Can you tell the difference between a 500kΩ and a 505kΩ volume pot? I would guess likely not. What about between a 1MΩ and a 250kΩ pot. I believe most anyone likely could. The point that lies in question, and one which I have not seen any reliable tests to establish, is what amount of change is required to be clearly and consistently identified as affecting the tone. Is it 5%, or 20%, or 50%? This will no doubt depend on a lot of variables, ranging from pickup styles to input impedance or adjustments of different amplifiers, so no results from a single simple test would be universally applicable.

Just saying that before anyone tries to claim anyone who disagrees with them must be a deaf idiot, they should have some controlled testing (or at least sound reasoning and experience) to back them up. In this particular case, I would say at the very least, that the claims of extremity of the perceived changes far outweigh what I've casually observed in my experience. I have a great deal of experience in this field, and any time claimed effects strike me as grossly more extreme or absolute than I have observed, it brings in to question the authority from which the claimant feels they are credible to speak. I'm open to the possibility of them being correct, but not without being questioned.

I never said volume pot value has no effect, or how much of a change it takes to affect a noticeable change. I'm just expressing a bit of skepticism that the effect is as great as some believe it to be, within such a relatively small difference. I have some pretty good ears, and replaced pots on hundreds, maybe thousands of guitars (haven't kept strict records), and the effects claimed by some seem at least somewhat inflated in my experience.

This is a highly predictable response . It is over elaborated, self perpetuating drivel.

If you think I can't hear the difference in a 20% variance in a pot and how it's affecting the signal or the difference of a couple of Hz. in frequency; Your full of " **IT ". If you think [ like others ] it is irrelevant or unoticable, once again your full " **it". The relevance of pot values in circuit is far more critical than the " bush carpenters " here seem to realize or notice.
I don't claim to have "Audiophile Golden Ears" either.

If I stuck a 10K resistor on my Vol pot in series with it; Will I be able to percieve a difference? you bet I will. Have you any idea what that difference is? No , otherwise you wouldn't have wasted paragraphs on your " blind test", etc.:cool2:
If you or any one else contends there will be no percievable difference.
" You must be deaf ":nana:

 

[El Dunco]

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not underrated ones

Re: where to get REAL 500k pots,not underrated ones

Sorry, can't do that. A lot of you, have a good bit of growing up to do. I use to be, a lot, like some of the more demeaning individuals in here. I often made fun of the less knowledgeable.... and then I realized how much more I gained when I mentored rather than ridiculed.

No, I will keep on dishing it out to you folks that would rather insult, hurt, ridicule, make fun of..... the list goes on. Its a challenge I cannot resist.

Looks like Beer$'s post got edited while I responded, I think the admins are doing a good job. I did see it though, no worries.

No such luck. You are the drinker of dead childrens' tears. I wish mild confusion upon you. You are part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor.

I feel really bad. Some kids were playing smoke on the water through an ENGL Blackmore and said 'great sound, what's a Blackmore?' So I hurt them really bad and now my shoes are ruined and these shoes were a present.

Why art thou in the moon? Save us.