Where/when did "modern" guitar tone begin?

[AdrianSD]

It's been like 15-20 years, man. It's the current internet trend. The whole "you need mids to cut through the mix" thing everybody keeps repeating. The current go-to settings on 5150's are "6-6-6", (which I personally think sound bad, but each to his own).

How about 6-7-3? With presence on zero-null-nada-zilch?
That's how my 50w 6L6 is set on both blue and red, give or take. Boosted out front, of course. A lot depends on the speakers and the cab used, but still, I like my mids and I'm not playing out. I struggle to get a good, mid scooped tone, it either sounds fizzy, or boomy, or both and there's no clarity and I get tired really quickly. My tinnitus and high frequency loss might have something to do with it, cause it's just not working. I need mids so I can hear what I'm playing properly.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

How about 6-7-3? With presence on zero-null-nada-zilch?
That's how my 50w 6L6 is set on both blue and red, give or take. Boosted out front, of course. A lot depends on the speakers and the cab used, but still, I like my mids and I'm not playing out. I struggle to get a good, mid scooped tone, it either sounds fizzy, or boomy, or both and there's no clarity and I get tired really quickly. My tinnitus and high frequency loss might have something to do with it, cause it's just not working. I need mids so I can hear what I'm playing properly.

Yeah, each to his own. You gotta dial in the sound you like.

For me, I don't think I'd ever run the mid knob on any 5150 past 3 or 4 at max. I used to have the 50W 6L6 too and the LBX. I didn't boost them, personally. A t least not on red. I didn't feel like they needed it. But then again, I also used mid heavy pickups, mid heavy speakers, and a mid heavy mic, so I got my mids off somewhere else. My tone stack settings were just a balancing act.

But my point is the "modern" or at least the current thing people are doing with their 5150's is dial in the 6-6-6 settings. Wether I like it or not, that's an extra comment I decide to thrown in, LOL.

 

[xxxplorer]

To this day I start all my amps on the 5150 6-6-6 setting lol. It's my version of starting at noon lol

 

[80's_Metal]

It started with The Peavey Bandit!

 

[Binnerscot]

It started with The Peavey Bandit!

OK, that cracked me up. Buuuuut.... that would be the time frame.

I should point out that we kids didn't have much money when young, and a lot of us wanted to sound like Van Halen and/or Metallica. Peavey had amps that we could afford and had gain... tons of gain! Sure, it wasn't a Mark IIC+ but it got into that world of chug and singing lead gain. It may not be where modern tone started, but we sure used a lot of them to try to get there.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Well, Left Hand Path was a Peavey Bandit, and Slaughter of the Soul was a Peavey Supreme, which as basically the Bandit cut into a head, LOL.

I don't know how much influence Entombed have on the "Modern Metal" sound, but At the Gates is a pretty direct influence to 2000's Metalcore.

 

[El Dunco]

Production trends probably play a part. Moving away from the reverb heavy sound of the 80s, back to the dry, in-your-face sound in the 90s onwards and never looked back. All the thrash bands for looking for tighter sounds out of their Marshalls, Metallica famously made the jump to Mesa.

Bands like Fear Factory set the benchmark, all while using a modded JCM800 until ot got stolen. Dino was inspired by Van Halen’s sound, but his dry, throaty sound on Demanufacture to sync with the kick drums for their style couldn’t be further from Van Halen 1.

Not to mention Colin Richardson was all over those albums from the time (including Machine Head mentioned earlier) which ended up setting the gold standard for modern metal tone where dry, tight and percussive was the goal.

A lot of guitarists from that time were also inspired by Dimebag and ended up with their own sound. Even Meshuggah used Marshalls when they were essentially a more progressive Metallica. Their 90s albums were all early Dual Rectifiers (vintage channel, with TC line booster) until Nothing.

In conclusion it was a gradual change as metal demanded more power and precision. The amp and technology to produce those sounds absolutely existed earlier.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Demanufacture sounds absolutely killer, BTW.

 

[El Dunco]

Demanufacture sounds absolutely killer, BTW.

Agreed! It’s one of the most widely discussed, sought after tones in metal for a reason. I feel the tone on Obsolete is overlooked. It’s similar to Deman’ but sharper (he stated an an interview he double tracked instead of quad tracking which he did on Deman’ for more clarity and pick definition).

While I love Demanufacture virtually as much, Dino definitely achieved the goal of more definition, I absolutely love the ratty high-end, it’s tight as all hell without being too slick or neutered whatsoever.

It brings out the best in the riffs on that album. Throw on Edgecrusher and listen to that same modded JCM800 make that riff so heavy it should be illegal!

My JVM, after tinkering with some cap values and trying out a lot of speaker combinations, now has my dream tight modern metal tone. It’s somewhat of a cross between Obsolete (smoother) and Demanufacture (more defined). The resonance knob on that amp is an absolute godsend and the E34Ls keep the integrity of the low end solid at rehearsal volume.

Unfortunately, they got Metallicad (what is ir with modded Marshalls getting stolen out of tour buses? Is there an underground Marshall trading ring??) It’s an absolute shame Fear Factory’s gear got stolen on tour and Obsolete is the last album we’ll ever hear with such a legendary amp.

You would think after all this time it would have showed up. Somebody out there has a JCM800 that’s part of metal history and they don’t know what they had.

If there isn’t already a book or youtube vid researching and tracking the lineage of what we now know as the modern, hi-gain metal tone, there ought to be! I’m game…

 

[El Dunco]

. . . max your mids ?
I remember very vividly, not too long abo, that scooping your mids to hell and gone wasall the rage !
When did this change to boosting your mids to 10 ???

I may have exaggerated but only slightly. Forum advice is very biased against scooping when the texas honk isn’t the only way to be heard and some of the best tones have a fairly narrow, strategiy chosen frequency band to scoop.

Not to mention that most tone stacks are a bit scooped at neutral settings outside of Baxandall EQ or similar. A lot of the point to as an example of “scooped” have more mids than they think and the forum benchmark for great hi-gain is usually always more scooped than they assume.

 

[Bill Dennis]

I suppose this is a matter of opinion. What do you think?

I think the main entries at the start are the SLO100, the 5150, and the Dual Rectifier. I think Soldano was the first to the party, but I don't think of those amps as coming onto the scene with what I'd describe as modern tones. They certainly weren't vintage in sound, but I also don't think the hair metal tones they were initially known for really count.

I think the sounds that are first associated with what has now been coined "modern" are probably those of the 90s Dual Rectifier because of the way it made downtuned heaviness possible. I don't think Mesa is still the poster child, but I do think that's where it started. I'd like to hear what other members think.

I think it originated with VH1 in 1978. Other than fuzz pedals no one achieved gain level like that previously. It grew from there with modded Marshalls and Randall Smith juicing up fenders for more gain.

I suppose you could argue it happened with the Thrash guys in the 80s.

The reality is nothing happens in a vacuum. No matter what spot you pick, it was influenced by something before it

 

[Binnerscot]

I think it originated with VH1 in 1978. Other than fuzz pedals no one achieved gain level like that previously. It grew from there with modded Marshalls and Randall Smith juicing up fenders for more gain.

I suppose you could argue it happened with th Thrash guys in the 80s.

The reality is nothing happens in a vacuum. No matter what spot you pick, it was influenced by something before it

Ed certainly pushed the envelope, that tone certainly was the inspiration that became what happened in the mid 80s with Mesa and Soldano. It just wasn't really out there for the masses until the early 90s from what I can tell. I always blame Ed too, in a good way.

If fact, one of those early 90s amps was the 5150, also Ed's fault

 

[Solarflares]

Modern guitar tone began with Jimi Hendrix in the studio with Eddie Kramer.
Compared to anything else this was science-fiction wizardry.
No one came close.
Many are still wondering how.

I must clarify that Eddie Van Halen, with a PAF on a Strat, Marshall, miked in a live room with a plate reverb - this was nothing new. It just personified the Ted Templeman direct, here it is, now here’s some more treble, approach. This from a band and guitarist that relied on trusted cliches, more than inventiveness. A brash party band with a deal basically. We wondered how any band could be so blatantly cheap?
Compare that to Allan Holdsworth’s UK album of the same year. Strat with a PAF, Marshall, miked in a live room, with a plate reverb.
Yngwie Malmsteen - Strat with a stacked single coil, Marshall, live room, Lexicon reverb.
Steve Vai - Basswood bodied Strat, Carvin then Marshall, live room, Lexicon reverb. (His Eddie Kramer Alkatrazz album followed by Ted Templeman’s Eat ‘em and Smile).
Frank Zappa - ‘75 to ‘81. Any guitar, modified to blazes, any gear, recorded at home or on location. But generally an SG with PAF’s, Marshall, live room or stage, ambient effects added in mixing. His “Wagnerian Emancipator” pedal made him really stand out.
Joe Satriani - Strat, PAF, Marshall, Lexicon.

All the above are significant rock players, and influential in their own right.
We grew to realise that Eddie was actually really adept, and had an ear for good tone.
Allan Holdsworth took guitar to another level completely, both in playing and sounds.
Yngwie Malmsteen peaked in ‘88, but Live in Leningrad is such a statement of the complete rock guitarist.
Steve Vai finally bared himself to the world with Passion and Warfare in 1990 - what an album.
Frank Zappa was quite simply above anything else. No constraints, and wonderful tone. His guitar playing declined after ‘81, but what a legacy.
Joe Satriani’s first album was superb. The second was even better. Real guitar, no frills.
Pat Metheny belongs here too. Groundbreaking musician, before his time.

Vinnie Vincent could have had it all btw. Monster player with huge musical knowledge. He could have played with anyone, and shone. Kiss chewed him up, then spat him out, whilst keeping the drugs and money. Great waste.

All the above cite Jimi as a huge influence. Frank and Allan went their own way - but they were from Jimi’s generation.

Then the ‘nice try, well done’ brigade.
We have Paul Kossoff, Robin Trower, Rory Gallagher, Jeff Beck, Pat Travers, Frank Marino, Ry Cooder, Todd Rundgren, and a few others, that made their mark with their guitar. All added something to Jimi’s legacy, or at least perpetuated it.

I don’t count Clapton, Jimmy Page, or Ritchie Blackmore in this. Too derivative of other’s work. But “In Rock” is a great DP album, and Page was arguably deservedly successful with his supergroup ‘cover’ band.

I don’t see any clear path here. Except for the class of ‘86 from GIT coming on the shred scene, but none of them had any tone.
It could perhaps be safe to say that modern guitar tone actually began AND ended with Jimi.

 

[Bill Dennis]

Modern guitar tone began with Jimi Hendrix in the studio with Eddie Kramer.
Compared to anything else this was science-fiction wizardry.
No one came close.
Many are still wondering how.

I must clarify that Eddie Van Halen, with a PAF on a Strat, Marshall, miked in a live room with a plate reverb - this was nothing new. It just personified the Ted Templeman direct, here it is, now here’s some more treble, approach. This from a band and guitarist that relied on trusted cliches, more than inventiveness. A brash party band with a deal basically. We wondered how any band could be so blatantly cheap?
Compare that to Allan Holdsworth’s UK album of the same year. Strat with a PAF, Marshall, miked in a live room, with a plate reverb.
Yngwie Malmsteen - Strat with a stacked single coil, Marshall, live room, Lexicon reverb.
Steve Vai - Basswood bodied Strat, Carvin then Marshall, live room, Lexicon reverb. (His Eddie Kramer Alkatrazz album followed by Ted Templeman’s Eat ‘em and Smile).
Frank Zappa - ‘75 to ‘81. Any guitar, modified to blazes, any gear, recorded at home or on location. But generally an SG with PAF’s, Marshall, live room or stage, ambient effects added in mixing. His “Wagnerian Emancipator” pedal made him really stand out.
Joe Satriani - Strat, PAF, Marshall, Lexicon.

All the above are significant rock players, and influential in their own right.
We grew to realise that Eddie was actually really adept, and had an ear for good tone.
Allan Holdsworth took guitar to another level completely, both in playing and sounds.
Yngwie Malmsteen peaked in ‘88, but Live in Leningrad is such a statement of the complete rock guitarist.
Steve Vai finally bared himself to the world with Passion and Warfare in 1990 - what an album.
Frank Zappa was quite simply above anything else. No constraints, and wonderful tone. His guitar playing declined after ‘81, but what a legacy.
Joe Satriani’s first album was superb. The second was even better. Real guitar, no frills.
Pat Metheny belongs here too. Groundbreaking musician, before his time.

Vinnie Vincent could have had it all btw. Monster player with huge musical knowledge. He could have played with anyone, and shone. Kiss chewed him up, then spat him out, whilst keeping the drugs and money. Great waste.

All the above cite Jimi as a huge influence. Frank and Allan went their own way - but they were from Jimi’s generation.

Then the ‘nice try, well done’ brigade.
We have Paul Kossoff, Robin Trower, Rory Gallagher, Jeff Beck, Pat Travers, Frank Marino, Ry Cooder, Todd Rundgren, and a few others, that made their mark with their guitar. All added something to Jimi’s legacy, or at least perpetuated it.

I don’t count Clapton, Jimmy Page, or Ritchie Blackmore in this. Too derivative of other’s work. But “In Rock” is a great DP album, and Page was arguably deservedly successful with his supergroup ‘cover’ band.

I don’t see any clear path here. Except for the class of ‘86 from GIT coming on the shred scene, but none of them had any tone.
It could perhaps be safe to say that modern guitar tone actually began AND ended with Jimi.

1) Jimi's magic was in his playing. The sounds of Marshalls and Fenders that made him famous were not new. I will grant you the fuzz but is that really in the same chain as "modern"? Not convinced

As for EVH, no one was doing what he did. No one. A les Paul into a Marshall is a wholly different sound than what EVH achieved on VH1.

 

[Solarflares]

1) Jimi's magic was in his playing. The sounds of Marshalls and Fenders that made him famous were not new. I will grant you the fuzz but is that really in the same chain as "modern"? Not convinced

As for EVH, no one was doing what he did. No one. A les Paul into a Marshall is a wholly different sound than what EVH achieved on VH1.

Van Halen 1?
I’m afraid to say that I found the album a bit of a joke.
Aside from the incredible impact of hearing Eddie’s tapping for the first time, the rest was a re-hash of Les Pauls licks and attempted cop-outs of Al Di Melos’s stuff, mixed with very mundane tried and trusted R&B licks - with added vibrato.
The mix was brash, in your face, and party-friendly - this wasn’t a band to get intimate with in small clubs.
Incredible that people revere this album, when we had guitar gems from Frank Zappa, Allan Holdsworth, Pat Travers, Frank Marino - all the same year.

As regards Jimi, you just declared yourself unqualified to even comment.
Fuzz not used here for the most part, if at all - pure Strat, amp, and Wah.
A real performance, from the best Bluesman of his generation, and beyond.

Then add the fuzz.

Then the Univibe

 

[Bill Dennis]

And you declared yourself snobbish and older than dirt.....

 

[jeremy]

settle down boys

 

[Solarflares]

settle down boys

I’m no boy. I’m older than shit.
Hilarious that I post 30 minutes of Jimi’s finest, and he comes back 2 minutes later with that!

 

[Chistopher]

Aside from the incredible impact of hearing Eddie’s tapping for the first time, the rest was a re-hash of Les Pauls licks and attempted cop-outs of Al Di Melos’s stuff, mixed with very mundane tried and trusted R&B licks - with added vibrato.

I agree. When I first listened to VH1, I couldn't make it past the second track because it sounded too much like Chester and Lester (1976)

 

['59]

Modern guitar tone began with Jimi Hendrix in the studio with Eddie Kramer.
Compared to anything else this was science-fiction wizardry.
No one came close.
Many are still wondering how.

I must clarify that Eddie Van Halen, with a PAF on a Strat, Marshall, miked in a live room with a plate reverb - this was nothing new. It just personified the Ted Templeman direct, here it is, now here’s some more treble, approach. This from a band and guitarist that relied on trusted cliches, more than inventiveness. A brash party band with a deal basically. We wondered how any band could be so blatantly cheap?
Compare that to Allan Holdsworth’s UK album of the same year. Strat with a PAF, Marshall, miked in a live room, with a plate reverb.
Yngwie Malmsteen - Strat with a stacked single coil, Marshall, live room, Lexicon reverb.
Steve Vai - Basswood bodied Strat, Carvin then Marshall, live room, Lexicon reverb. (His Eddie Kramer Alkatrazz album followed by Ted Templeman’s Eat ‘em and Smile).
Frank Zappa - ‘75 to ‘81. Any guitar, modified to blazes, any gear, recorded at home or on location. But generally an SG with PAF’s, Marshall, live room or stage, ambient effects added in mixing. His “Wagnerian Emancipator” pedal made him really stand out.
Joe Satriani - Strat, PAF, Marshall, Lexicon.

All the above are significant rock players, and influential in their own right.
We grew to realise that Eddie was actually really adept, and had an ear for good tone.
Allan Holdsworth took guitar to another level completely, both in playing and sounds.
Yngwie Malmsteen peaked in ‘88, but Live in Leningrad is such a statement of the complete rock guitarist.
Steve Vai finally bared himself to the world with Passion and Warfare in 1990 - what an album.
Frank Zappa was quite simply above anything else. No constraints, and wonderful tone. His guitar playing declined after ‘81, but what a legacy.
Joe Satriani’s first album was superb. The second was even better. Real guitar, no frills.
Pat Metheny belongs here too. Groundbreaking musician, before his time.

Vinnie Vincent could have had it all btw. Monster player with huge musical knowledge. He could have played with anyone, and shone. Kiss chewed him up, then spat him out, whilst keeping the drugs and money. Great waste.

All the above cite Jimi as a huge influence. Frank and Allan went their own way - but they were from Jimi’s generation.

Then the ‘nice try, well done’ brigade.
We have Paul Kossoff, Robin Trower, Rory Gallagher, Jeff Beck, Pat Travers, Frank Marino, Ry Cooder, Todd Rundgren, and a few others, that made their mark with their guitar. All added something to Jimi’s legacy, or at least perpetuated it.

I don’t count Clapton, Jimmy Page, or Ritchie Blackmore in this. Too derivative of other’s work. But “In Rock” is a great DP album, and Page was arguably deservedly successful with his supergroup ‘cover’ band.

I don’t see any clear path here. Except for the class of ‘86 from GIT coming on the shred scene, but none of them had any tone.
It could perhaps be safe to say that modern guitar tone actually began AND ended with Jimi.

You seem to know what you are talking about, but this take is bad. If we are considering your scope, which is a lot broader than the others here, Robert Johnson deserves the title more than Jimi. He wasn't as prolific of a guitar player, but his sound found its way into everyone's sound. Robert Lockwood Junior, Muddy Waters, Elmore James, Eric Clapton, Keith Richards, Peter Green, Led Zeppelin, Gary Moore, Eric Johnson, and basically everyone ever to some extent.