Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

I can't quite make out the hum over the sound of that sick burn!

Seriously, though, guitar electronics pick up hum. At some point you either need to realize that the greatest music you've ever heard has some imperfections underneath that glory, or you just need to go active. Fluences are great, BTW. I've installed them for others and they are highly impressive.

Edit: reading through your posts again, I wonder if there might be some other problem happening. Sounds like you've gone through a lot of gear and pickups. I think you said so above, but I wanted to double check: Your guitars have fully shielded electronics? The pickups are professionally installed? I'm not trying to be dismissive, just trying to see if you've covered all of your bases. You said above that you bought a set of passive s that are dead quiet. What are they? I don't fully understand why that set doesn't include a noise free bridge pickup.

It may be a sick burn, but he is simply ignorant, literally - because he is speaking out without even knowing my situation, filling in the gaps when he simply doesn't know.

I already know that there are "imperfections " underneath what you refer to as the greatest music I've ever heard. My point is that I don't want noise when I don't want it. As demonstrated with the Squier Bullet I used in the video, actives are NOT necessary to achieve a noise floor that I find more than acceptable. I just went and listened to a bunch of videos of the Fluence stuff. Frankly, I didn't like what I heard. Now, I clearly listed specs and parameters that I wanted to stick to when I created this thread. I'm looking for passive full size humbuckers with excellent s/n ratios. Thank you for the suggestion. But, I'll pass on the Fluence stuff, for now.

Yes. My Strat and Tele are fully shielded and have been tested for continuity. I have gone through many pickups by many manufacturers installed by professionals. That was part of the point of the video. We have several hundreds of humbucking guitars in our store. Most humbuckers hum. Some hum very badly. But, they are still called humbuckers. Cheapies. Boutiques. I have found that it doesn't matter how much money the pickup cost. Most humbuckers audibly hum.

Recently, after playing a Magnatone amp, I realized that I prefer the tone of a full size humbucker to the bridge pickup that was in my Strat, which had two dead-quiet Zexcoil humbuckers and a SFM pickup in the middle. So, I bought a humbucker pickup for the bridge position of my Strat. I also realized that wanted the neck and middle pickups to sound closer to that of true singles. So, around the same time, I bought a set of dead-quiet stack pickups to address that preference. It was just the neck and middle. Maybe I should call them a pair? I didn't know exactly how the pickups would sound, because the model isn't even advertised, yet. I also didn't realize that the humbucker wouldn't reject as much hum as I would like it to. I am asking for people to help identify the humbuckers with better s/n ratios simply because I want to know what options are available to replace the noisy pickups I have so that I don't waste money on something that I don't like. Truly, I wouldn't be asking this if manufacturers stated clearly what the average noise specs of their pickups are.

I own several sets of nice extra pickups and have been trying to sell those. No takers. Typically, I well sell off these pickups if I don't want or need them, as I have been given free Lollars, Zhangbuckers, and other stuff. I actually gave away my Duncan '59/Custom Hybrid, my Zhangbucker Paul Bunyan, and (I think) my Brownbucker w/ splat, too. (I was even trying to sell of my guitar, because I don't want to own a bunch of gear - despite what Ace says.)

Does that help you understand?

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

A sanity check - you don't by any chance have lighting, and in particular lighting dimmers, on the same circuit as the amps, do you?

No. I don't have any dimmers or anything like that. I do live in an apartment complex, though. So, who knows what my neighbors have? I have considered going around to ask them. But, I don't believe that's the issue. I say that because I installed Lollar P90's into my Tele and D.Allen Echoes into my Strat (both full sets for sale, Ace) and both sets had silent in between positions. And, my Zexcoil Juicy Bucker and Throaty Bucker are silent in series mode. I understand (typically cheap) dimmers would even cause buckers and whatnot to pickup some noise.

I am sane. It's just that I want to lower my noise floor beyond what most people consider to be good enough. I understand what people accept as good enough. What I am trying to say is that, having identified that it is indeed possible obtain what I want with even a cheap full size humbucker, what other pickups also meet this criteria?

 

[FleshOnGear]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

After giving that video another look, I'll say that I don't think there's anything abnormal about any of those guitars, except that's I'm surprised that the Squier is that quiet. It's obvious to me that the pickups in your Tele are installed just fine. So, you are demanding a higher level of performance. Getting passive guitar electronics that quiet will require serious attention to detail. Really, I have no explanation for the quietness of the Squier, other than it was a happy accident. What can be done?

1) get pickups with symmetrical coils. I'm not an expert of the construction of specific pickups, so I can't make a solid recommendation. Maybe someone else can. I'm pretty sure some of the ones you tried are symmetrically wound, but there are other factors that might have made them seem noisy. It's also worth noting that no humbucker is 100% humcancelling because the two coils are in different places. Very small shifts in positioning can make one coil pickup more hum than the other. This makes shielding more important.

2) go with covers. The covers should act like electrostatic shields.

3) obsessively shield all of the control cavities (copper foil is the best), and make sure the shielding is electrically grounded. As close to 100% envelopment of signal carrying circuitry as possible.

All of the noisier guitars in that demo could've had either unshielded wiring, unbalanced pickups, or both.

If doing these things still leaves you with too much noise, go active. Good Luck.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

If there's anything I've learned about pickup hum, it's to use the best sounding high quality pickups and amps, then train my right pinky to pull it all under control with the guitar volume.

The point Aceman was trying to make is that in a live environment, you've got every electronic anomoly working against you, whether you like it or not.

At that point, your guitar's volume is your shut off valve.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

After giving that video another look, I'll say that I don't think there's anything abnormal about any of those guitars, except that's I'm surprised that the Squier is that quiet. It's obvious to me that the pickups in your Tele are installed just fine. So, you are demanding a higher level of performance. Getting passive guitar electronics that quiet will require serious attention to detail. Really, I have no explanation for the quietness of the Squier, other than it was a happy accident. What can be done?

1) get pickups with symmetrical coils. I'm not an expert of the construction of specific pickups, so I can't make a solid recommendation. Maybe someone else can. I'm pretty sure some of the ones you tried are symmetrically wound, but there are other factors that might have made them seem noisy. It's also worth noting that no humbucker is 100% humcancelling because the two coils are in different places. Very small shifts in positioning can make one coil pickup more hum than the other. This makes shielding more important.

2) go with covers. The covers should act like electrostatic shields.

3) obsessively shield all of the control cavities (copper foil is the best), and make sure the shielding is electrically grounded. As close to 100% envelopment of signal carrying circuitry as possible.

All of the noisier guitars in that demo could've had either unshielded wiring, unbalanced pickups, or both.

If doing these things still leaves you with too much noise, go active. Good Luck.

In response to your numbers:

1) Please, name some full size passive humbuckers that are known to you or anyone to have symmetrical coils and be exceptionally quiet. If I haven't tried them already, I will look for some guitars with them in the shop tomorrow.

*ASIDE* But, how symmetrical do the coils need to be to lower the noise floor as much as that Squier, I wonder? (Someone suggested pickups "matched within one ohm or turn", stating "You can get a 80 db s/n ratio that way, just hiss, no hum at high gains. " )

2) I tried that. I even demonstrated it in the video that covers aren't really a huge factor, in this case. The Lollar Imperials and the Gibson buckers (gotta fix that jack), though covered, were noisy. I have personally owned a fully shielded Telecaster '72 RI with covered Lollar Regals. The electronics were installed by an expert. It was noisy in the bridge position - both at my apartment and at the shop.

3) Did that. Tested for continuity. Re-did it several times, too - because people keep saying that I should do that to obtain what I am looking for. It's not the fix, in this case. It did help with the buzz when I installed my Zexcoils, though. But, that guitar is quiet, primarily, because of how well those pickups reject or cancel noise.

I have personally opened up the Collings guitars. They are built very well, with excellent wiring, shielding paint, and old-style braided shield wire. That guitar even had boutique humbuckers with covers.

I opened up the Squier Bullet today. It was shielded with paint, but the wires weren't anything special. And, it most certainly didn't have active anything. It was dead-quiet. So, I don't need or want actives. And, apparently, I don't necessarily need (redundant?) an expensive pickup to obtain the performance that I am seeking. I've bought many pickups blindly in the past. But, I am here to get informed on what exactly would make that Squier pickup perform the way it does so that I may make the best decision I can, to obtain what I want. In fact, I would say that it's more likely that I would buy and install one of the Squier humbuckers than it is that I go active on any day, ever.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

If there's anything I've learned about pickup hum, it's to use the best sounding high quality pickups and amps, then train my right pinky to pull it all under control with the guitar volume.

The point Aceman was trying to make is that in a live environment, you've got every electronic anomoly working against you, whether you like it or not.

At that point, your guitar's volume is your shut off valve.

Volume control is important. I do that, too. It just comes naturally with playing guitar (especially in a live situation), I think. But, just like with a noise gate, with the volume up, the noise will be there playing alongside the signal. So, if I hit a quiet note, the noise will be there, too. That's a Band-Aid, in this case. What I mean is, although I also use this good method of noise management when playing guitar, it is limited and not a true solution because the noise floor hasn't changed if you're essentially just muting and un-muting the signal. (I have done a lot of digital editing, btw.)

I understood that Ace was saying exactly what he meant. He clearly went beyond just telling me to turn down whenever I am not playing. I've been playing for decades. So, I already know about doing this (managing volume, noise, and playing feedback from a hundred watt amp). He was simply being rude. His "call" was an error. I don't play guitar live in his '80's hair band. And, he doesn't practice guitar or record music in my tiny apartment in the middle of the night. We are different people with different preferences in different environments. So, logically, it stands to reason that we have different requirements for our situations. Now, isn't that common sense?

Even if I use a $3000+, high-quality boutique amp with a $5000-$10,000 guitar that has high-quality pickups and turn down in between phrases, the noise floor - starting at the fingers/strings and pickups will be affected by everything else in the chain. If I obtain an excellent s/n/ ratio starting at the pickups, I have the potential to achieve as clean a sound as I'd like. Or, I have a great color with which I can paint on the sonic canvas. But, when I have an audible, built-in amount of annoying hum, I view that as a something like trying to paint with red or blue - but, every time you do, you automatically get a little yellow alongside it.

I know that I'm new here. But, I am not completely inexperienced when it comes to this guitar stuff. However, I doubt that I've tried more passive humbuckers than everyone on this forum put together. I expect that some of you have heard some exceptionally quiet ones. Please, list them so that I can check 'em out.

 

[FleshOnGear]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Guess you'll have to send that magical squier pickup to a custom winder to have them reverse engineer it. Or maybe just pull it out of the Squier and put it into your nicer guitar, see what happens.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Humbuckers with balanced coils will give you the largest amount of hum reduction. Is it ever really completely gone? You are right, I've heard it completely gone with stacks, and with actives, but they don't work for everyone. I don't know if 2 coils can be 100% perfectly balanced. I think if you use enough gain, and compression, you will hear something.
I just kind of accept this now...like hearing the clicking sound when standing next to a clarinet. I think to get that level of noise/hum reduction, some compromises will be made in the sound and construction of the pickups (as well as the overall level of gain). Guitar is a genuinely noisy sort of instrument, really. And the hum changes depending on what room you are in, too.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

I know that I'm new here. But, I am not completely inexperienced when it comes to this guitar stuff. However, I doubt that I've tried more passive humbuckers than everyone on this forum put together. I expect that some of you have heard some exceptionally quiet ones. Please, list them so that I can check 'em out.

I've been playing for more than 35 years and own or have owned as many electric guitars. I've never heard a passive-wired electric guitar that was dead quiet or better than 80db S/N in all situations. My #1 Les Paul is dead quiet, but even that, when playing at a local venue, suffers hum when I let go of the strings. In that case, the lighting is on the same circuit as everything else. And as an additional problem I have a pedal drawing more mA than the power supply supports, so I need to look into that. However, the problems never even manifested until getting into a crappy electrical power situation. It was all dead quiet at home.

If it were me, I would look into troubleshooting and improving the power supply and eliminating all other influential electronics in the immediate vicinity of the guitar rig, first. (Get all computers, lights, cell phones, televisions, whatever, away from the guitar rig and off that circuit. And look into a regulated power supply for the guitar rig, if you have to.) And second, I might try getting another Squire and seeing if their pickups, for whatever reason, have that magic recipe that solves the problem, since one seems to do what you wanted. (It's sound like you've already found a solution but are still looking.)

And failing all of the above, I think you might have unrealistic goals for electric guitar - considering that, since the electric guitar's invention, none of these problems have been 100% solved yet without compromises to the tone and sound quality.

As far as pickups I have experience with that are quiet, the stock 498/490 in one of my Les Pauls are indeed dead quiet, most of the time. But the crappier the electrical power supply in the room, then I get tell-tale amounts of hum and buzz. But while mostly quiet, the sound is disappointing to play through. They ever fail to produce exactly the sound I'm trying to make, which is unsatisfying to play. Most balanced coil humbuckers I've played through are just like this. Quiet, and don't sound good. All the humbuckers I've played that sound excellent and are a joy to play are unbalanced, quirky, and as a result allow some amount of hum and buzz through. For me, when I'm lost in the music, I don't notice the buzz or hum and I've learned work the controls and stand or aim the guitar at whatever angle or get a noise gate to deal with noise that is there.

As an alternative, there are smart gates now that can reasonably filter hum and buzz during quiet passages, though I don't use them personally.

Good luck.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Humbuckers with balanced coils will give you the largest amount of hum reduction. Is it ever really completely gone? You are right, I've heard it completely gone with stacks, and with actives, but they don't work for everyone. I don't know if 2 coils can be 100% perfectly balanced. I think if you use enough gain, and compression, you will hear something.
I just kind of accept this now...like hearing the clicking sound when standing next to a clarinet. I think to get that level of noise/hum reduction, some compromises will be made in the sound and construction of the pickups (as well as the overall level of gain). Guitar is a genuinely noisy sort of instrument, really. And the hum changes depending on what room you are in, too.

Yes. Guitar is, generally, a noisy sort of instrument, Mincer. Is there a list or some other info available that would tell me which of the Duncans are the most symmetrically wound and to what degree? Or, can you point me to a list of the quietest passive full size humbuckers from Seymour Duncan? Although the stacks that I have are dead quiet, I'm not sure that I want another stack in the bridge position of my Strat. The beef of a humbucker would be nice in that position, I think. In your experience, which passive, full size humbuckers have been the quietest?

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Without getting into the little whiny *****fest that's going on...

When I lived in an apartment (built 1960) I had significantly more hum in my electronics than in my current home (which is older, but has since been re-wired). Maybe the wiring just sucks, power is dirty, etc.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

I've been playing for more than 35 years and own or have owned as many electric guitars. I've never heard a passive-wired electric guitar that was dead quiet or better than 80db S/N in all situations. My #1 Les Paul is dead quiet, but even that, when playing at a local venue, suffers hum when I let go of the strings. In that case, the lighting is on the same circuit as everything else. And as an additional problem I have a pedal drawing more mA than the power supply supports, so I need to look into that. However, the problems never even manifested until getting into a crappy electrical power situation. It was all dead quiet at home.

If it were me, I would look into troubleshooting and improving the power supply and eliminating all other influential electronics in the immediate vicinity of the guitar rig, first. (Get all computers, lights, cell phones, televisions, whatever, away from the guitar rig and off that circuit. And look into a regulated power supply for the guitar rig, if you have to.) And second, I might try getting another Squire and seeing if their pickups, for whatever reason, have that magic recipe that solves the problem, since one seems to do what you wanted. (It's sound like you've already found a solution but are still looking.)

And failing all of the above, I think you might have unrealistic goals for electric guitar - considering that, since the electric guitar's invention, none of these problems have been 100% solved yet without compromises to the tone and sound quality.

As far as pickups I have experience with that are quiet, the stock 498/490 in one of my Les Pauls are indeed dead quiet, most of the time. But the crappier the electrical power supply in the room, then I get tell-tale amounts of hum and buzz. But while mostly quiet, the sound is disappointing to play through. They ever fail to produce exactly the sound I'm trying to make, which is unsatisfying to play. Most balanced coil humbuckers I've played through are just like this. Quiet, and don't sound good. All the humbuckers I've played that sound excellent and are a joy to play are unbalanced, quirky, and as a result allow some amount of hum and buzz through. For me, when I'm lost in the music, I don't notice the buzz or hum and I've learned work the controls and stand or aim the guitar at whatever angle or get a noise gate to deal with noise that is there.

As an alternative, there are smart gates now that can reasonably filter hum and buzz during quiet passages, though I don't use them personally.

Good luck.

Thanks, beaubrummels. I don't play out live, currently. But, when I was playing professionally on a small stage, I didn't have any noise issues from the guitar. I was using Lawrence pickups at that time, if I remember correctly. In that live situation, everything was so loud that a little buzz/noise hardly mattered. But, my rig was very quiet. I used a RAT, and an Fulltone OCD stacked together, seperate, and sometimes also with the amp's gain channel. I often turned on my wah and played around with the static-y radio sort of noise it made when I was on stage. Many people that play live are in situations similar to that. But, I am not playing in that situation right now. My environment is a quiet, critical listening one in which I am practicing and anticipate recording.

I've already separated my computer from the room that I play in. But, I will check more into the clean power supply thing.

I don't think my goal here of having a much lower noise floor is unrealistic because, as you recognized, that Squier is uber-quiet. If I can find the common thread, as far as the build, between it's humbucker and the other quiet, passive, full size humbuckers, I think I will be able to make a better decision when choosing one for my guitar. This is partly why I am asking for a list of these things, instead of gating/muting advice or musical advice. I work in a guitar shop (for about a decade). I already know about what people keep mentioning here about the function of guitars and how to operate them. I'm simply trying to get a list going and compare the specs of quiet humbuckers.

Thank you for mentioning the Gibson 498/490. I will check to see if that Les Paul from the vid (which wasn't quiet) has those pickups. Many people posting aren't even listing any quiet pickups. So, thank you again.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

I am here to get informed on what exactly would make that Squier pickup perform the way it does so that I may make the best decision I can, to obtain what I want.

This is a USER forum. End users. Customers. All the help that people have been kind enough to offer all appears to be on the right track and their efforts are worthy of appreciation.

Sounds like the particular demands you have could be best suited by talking to an engineer or a winder or some sort of tech support related to a pickup or guitar company.

For example, If the Squire has something that is working for you, it sounds like that could be something to chase down.

 

[Liko]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

^^
Could that be the reason?
I didn't think that dimmers could generate such vitriol.

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

Oh yeah.

First off, to understand what you should be really focusing on to lower your noise floor, you need to understand how noise is generated in audio circuits. Basically, there are two types of noise sources; electromagnetic inductance, and electromagnetic radiation.

Electromagnetic inductance is when electricity is used to generate a magnetic field, which then does work either by re-inducing current in another conductor or by pushing or pulling against another magnetic field to create physical movement. It's this basic principle that makes your guitar pickups work in the first place; however, because your pickups are pretty sensitive inductors, they will also be effected by any other magnetic fields in the area. Electromagnetic induction is used by power transformers (including adapters and inverters that convert between AC and DC power), electric motors, certain computer components, radio transmitters, and other commonplace electrical devices; essentially anything that transmits or uses AC current will induce a current in your pickups.

Electromagnetic radiation is light, heat, UV and other photon-based rays, and also the emission of massive charged particles, mainly electrons (there's proton radiation too but you pretty much have to be recording on the ISS to be dealing with that). Of particular note are electron radiation and ionizing radiation (light of high enough wavelength/energy to eject electrons). In either case, these forms of radiation will create an electric current simply by moving the electrons around, without the conductor having to be specially tuned such as for radio waves. Electromagnetic radiation is produced by such common household items as CRT screens, fluorescent lights (including the ones in older LCD flatscreens), plasma TVs, microwaves, and other high-frequency emitters.

To protect against inductance, you either have to cancel out the current it generates, or just avoid it. Humbuckers do the former, but they work best when the two coils are perfectly equidistant from the noise source; if one coil is closer, especially if the whole pickup is closer, the induced current gets unbalanced and noise can be produced. The better solution, if you can, is to reduce the number of big inductors in your recording space; only have the amps/equipment you're actually using turned on, replace the tube light fixture or CFL with LED equivalents, turn off your ceiling fan, etc. Those you can't remove, distance yourself from.

Dimmer switches are a particular problem because of what they do to the AC waveform in the mains power of the entire breaker circuit. They work by turning the power to the light off during a certain portion of the wavelength, then back on. This creates sharp corners in the waveform, and sharp corners in a waveform sound distorted and buzzy (it's why overdrive/distortion/fuzz sound like they do). Because they're suddenly turning power on and off to a branch of the breaker circuit, this also produces a backwash effect that makes the entire circuit noisy, and this noise is then introduced into the power supply of other devices like your amplifiers. This buzz is harder to filter out because these little transients in the waveform rarely line up perfectly between hum-cancelling halves of a circuit. So, the best solution is to avoid them entirely; either completely turn off the light controlled by the dimmer, or replace it with a regular switch, and use other light fixtures like lamps to create mood lighting in your space.

To protect against EMR, shielding is the key. Providing the radiation, either electrons or rays, with a layer of metal connected to ground will insulate the electrical circuits inside that layer. This is the principle behind the Farraday cage, and you can replicate this kind of shell in your control cavity and pickup wells with a few bucks in copper tape. However, the pickups themselves can't be shielded without changing the guitar's tone or obstructing the strings (the "ashtrays" on early Fender Jazz Basses were to shield the coils). To completely remove EMR, again, avoidance is the key. Favor LED/LCD TVs and monitors in your space over CRTs, plasmas or older LCDTVs with fluorescent backlights, again get rid of fluorescent room lights (they're a double whammy; the ballast transformer adds inductive hum, and the tubes work by emitting electrons into the mercury gas in the tube), keep the microwave in the kitchen and try not to track before dinner, etc.

To really get the noise floor down, you need power conditioners. Dimmer switches create "dirty power" in your household branches, but so do DC adapters, inverters (like from solar panels or generators), AC motor commutators like the ones in your fridge, AC, washer and dryer, and other devices that make sudden, rapid changes in power draw. These devices add spikes, corners and other transients to the power going into your audio devices, which in turn powers the transistors that amplify the signal. Sudden, even small, voltage differences in the supply power are amplified right along the signal. Power conditioners use a variety of techniques to smooth out these transients and produce a "clean" sinusoidal waveform. Truly effective power conditioners are fairly pricey; power strips with surge protectors often also include a band-pass filter allowing only 60Hz to pass through, and while these can help attenuate the worst of the noise, they aren't the whole story.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Stacks don't just cancel hum like a typical P.A.F. or something, they actually inject negative hum into the pickup...

This is only true of newer stack designs like the Stack Plus and all the Dimarzio's available except the old HS series. The reason they're "boosting" the noise into the bottom coil is because they're trying to minimize the negative effects having a bottom coil. The bottom coils are a drag on the tone. They can't help but introduce comb filtering and loading. That said...The stack design is very quiet because the coils are in the same position vertically, in line with a narrow magnetic circuit. So an "old school" stack design, where the top and bottom coil are exactly the same, still has the potential to be quieter than a Humbucker. In a side-by-side humbucker, the field is larger, and the two coils (regardless of how flawlessly they're matched) are physically in different (enough) locations to have more position-dependent noise; the kind of noise that gets louder and quieter depending on rotating the guitar.

Regarding Fluence:

Nooooo! LOL. Why would you say that? The nearly-silent Squier Bullet in my vid is passive. I would like to stay with a passive design. I'll look into the Fluence line, since you suggested it. But, it seems like I checked into it before and was unimpressed. Typically, I hate active pickups because they usually seem "flat" to me.

I just went and listened to a bunch of videos of the Fluence stuff. Frankly, I didn't like what I heard. Now, I clearly listed specs and parameters that I wanted to stick to when I created this thread. I'm looking for passive full size humbuckers with excellent s/n ratios. Thank you for the suggestion. But, I'll pass on the Fluence stuff, for now.

Honestly I don't know whether to start talking about your misconceptions about Fluence, or just leave you be. You already "hate active pickups" and you've (unfairly) lumped Fluence into that category so there's no upside to me explaining how they're different.

In short, the reason you hate active pickups is probably because the frequency response of EMG's and EMG sound-alikes has been flatter by design. The coils are loaded and the peak is low and wide. The other reason is the preamps clip hard. They brickwall limit the sound. So that you pick harder and harder and the transients are squashed, and the RMS is flattened until it falls below the clip threshold. Ironically, if you're just talking about signal to noise ratio, this brickwall limiting actually decreases the s/n ratio.

Fluence have none of these qualities I just described, except for Voice 1 of the Moderns which have the low/wide peak for people who like the active pickup tone. The Fluence core (coils) are probably the quietest coils used in pickups...ever. Fluence also don't have the headroom issue. You'd probably love the Classics, and the single coil models. But I'm not going to push the issue, your bias seems insurmountable and I'm fine with that.

So down to some basics: There are two main types of noise, without getting scientific one type enters the coil, the other type disturbs the magnetic field. The former can be mitigated with things like shielding, matched coils, optimally chosen turn counts for the particular wire gauge being used...But the latter, there's very little that can be done. The noise agitates the magnetic field basically in the same way that the strings do! To lower that noise level, the pickup maker can use smaller, tighter magnetic fields, including very complex magnetic circuits like Lace Sensors.

If you want lower noise humbuckers, Ceramic is quieter than Alnico. (even with Fluence the Ceramic Modern is quieter than the Alnico) so seek out Ceramics before Alnicos. As others have said you also want matched coils. Dimarzio identifies which models are not matched because they say they're covered by their dual resonance patent. That's not to say those ARE noisier, just that it increases the odds. With Duncan, as far as I know the only mismatched coils they've admitted to in public is the 59/Custom Hybrid. Otherwise the implication is that the rest of them are symmetrical. Magnetically, if you can get the two coils to be the same, that will help. Both slugs, for example, or both short allen poles like the Full Shred will help. So like, a Full Shred with a short Ceramic magnet might be quieter than a Custom.

Some humbuckers, like Duncan's Trembuckers have a copper foil wrap on each coil. That adds eddy currents and changes the sound, but it can reduce noise. That's about all I can add to this otherwise chaotic discussion, good luck I hope you find what you're looking for.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Could it be the Squier pickup the OP likes is so quiet because it's underwound & made with a ceramic magnet? It would be slightly ironic if the cheap manufacture gave it better noise rejection.

OP, how is the output on that Squier- could it appear less noisy simply because it's quieter? And second, how is the tone?

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

This is a USER forum. End users. Customers. All the help that people have been kind enough to offer all appears to be on the right track and their efforts are worthy of appreciation.

Sounds like the particular demands you have could be best suited by talking to an engineer or a winder or some sort of tech support related to a pickup or guitar company.

For example, If the Squier has something that is working for you, it sounds like that could be something to chase down.

I'm also a user. I came here to talk to users with personal experience with passive magnetic humbuckers, thinking that possibly someone else has observed that certain pickups are quieter than others and would list them so that I could go through the list trying to find a common thread with these quiet pickups. I am approaching this as a customer that will be using these tools to make music. I already know that this particular Squier bucker is quiet. But, I was hoping to see what else was out there -because I don't want to be limited to stacks, actives, or this one Squier pickup model. I'm not asking folks to break out their DVMs to measure anything. I just wanted a list of stuff that they found to be quiet - so that I could check the models out for myself. I think that, surely, something out there is as quiet as the Squier's humbucker, but with a more appealing sound. But, I expect that I will also talk to engineers and builders more about this subject.

I just made another video (not posted, yet). In it, I speak about about how that this isn't merely dirty power issue that the cheap Mustang isn't necessarily the problem - by demonstrating that the noise is still there with both an expensive handwired Marshall and a small battery powered Fender amp.

 

[dotsdad]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

To the OP...I feel your pain. My music room at homeis noisy as can be. Ive got a ceiling fan, CRT monitor, and track lights with a dimmer. Buzzzz city!

Duncan Classic Stack Plus are the quietest pickups I have tried, and ive tried a lot. Stks4 stks4 stks6 is a great set. They can sccream or sing, depending how hard you hit them, and are virtually buzz free.

Full sized JB is the noisiest humbucker Ive ever owned. So loud I thought it was broken.

My Custom Shop IM1 hums a bit too, but much more bearable than Jb. Plus, the tone is worth the little bit iof buzz.

The buzz wasnt too bad with the Custom Custom as I recall.

best bet, though, is to select a pickup to grt the tone you want and invest in a good noise gate.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Honestly I don't know whether to start talking about your misconceptions about Fluence, or just leave you be. You already "hate active pickups" and you've (unfairly) lumped Fluence into that category so there's no upside to me explaining how they're different.

In short, the reason you hate active pickups is probably because the frequency response of EMG's and EMG sound-alikes has been flatter by design.
Fluence have none of these qualities I just described, except for Voice 1 of the Moderns which have the low/wide peak for people who like the active pickup tone. The Fluence core (coils) are probably the quietest coils used in pickups...ever. Fluence also don't have the headroom issue. You'd probably love the Classics, and the single coil models. But I'm not going to push the issue, your bias seems insurmountable and I'm fine with that.

So down to some basics: There are two main types of noise, without getting scientific one type enters the coil, the other type disturbs the magnetic field. The former can be mitigated with things like shielding, matched coils, optimally chosen turn counts for the particular wire gauge being used...But the latter, there's very little that can be done. The noise agitates the magnetic field basically in the same way that the strings do! To lower that noise level, the pickup maker can use smaller, tighter magnetic fields, including very complex magnetic circuits like Lace Sensors.

If you want lower noise humbuckers, Ceramic is quieter than Alnico. (even with Fluence the Ceramic Modern is quieter than the Alnico) so seek out Ceramics before Alnicos. As others have said you also want matched coils. Dimarzio identifies which models are not matched because they say they're covered by their dual resonance patent. That's not to say those ARE noisier, just that it increases the odds. With Duncan, as far as I know the only mismatched coils they've admitted to in public is the 59/Custom Hybrid. Otherwise the implication is that the rest of them are symmetrical. Magnetically, if you can get the two coils to be the same, that will help. Both slugs, for example, or both short allen poles like the Full Shred will help. So like, a Full Shred with a short Ceramic magnet might be quieter than a Custom.

Some humbuckers, like Duncan's Trembuckers have a copper foil wrap on each coil. That adds eddy currents and changes the sound, but it can reduce noise. That's about all I can add to this otherwise chaotic discussion, good luck I hope you find what you're looking for.

The conversation didn't have to be chaotic. I thought what I asked for was a simple thing. But, others kinda moved away from the what I asked for and chose to focus on why I asked for it, even making false accusations and assumptions about me.

Regarding Fluence, I think that I have kept a very open mind about Fluence stuff. I listened to many videos and read about the system yesterday. I have looked into it before, too. I recognize that very smart people worked very hard to create this cool gear. But, after listening to many videos of the Fluence stuff in comparisons, I just realized that I don't prefer the sound of the Fluence stuff that I have heard. I like new tech. But, for me, the Fluence stuff that I have heard isn't there tonally, yet. Honestly, I was listening to clips yesterday and got very excited about the Fluence stuff. I was considering ordering one last night. But, again, when my excitement about the new tech wore off, I just listened. And, the regular pickups were what I preferred. Now, we are only talking about videos and clips. I don't know how they respond/sound in person, with my gear. If I should come across footage of a Fluence HSS system that wows me tonally (and I hope that I do), I expect that I will trade in my passives in a heartbeat - because I obviously want a better s/n ratio. But, I will continue to look into the Fluence stuff. Also, I meant no disrespect to you guys that worked so hard to make this new tech.

And, thank you for helping out in this thread by sharing from your wealth of knowledge and experience with these passive humbucking pickups. I mean that sincerely, as you have been more helpful than many on the web.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Could it be the Squier pickup the OP likes is so quiet because it's underwound & made with a ceramic magnet? It would be slightly ironic if the cheap manufacture gave it better noise rejection.

OP, how is the output on that Squier- could it appear less noisy simply because it's quieter? And second, how is the tone?

9.59k, according to what I measured. The Tele of mine in the vid has very low output. Lower than the Squier. And, it isn't as quiet.
The tone of the Squier is not amazing.