Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

To the OP...I feel your pain. My music room at homeis noisy as can be. Ive got a ceiling fan, CRT monitor, and track lights with a dimmer. Buzzzz city!

Duncan Classic Stack Plus are the quietest pickups I have tried, and ive tried a lot. Stks4 stks4 stks6 is a great set. They can sccream or sing, depending how hard you hit them, and are virtually buzz free.

Full sized JB is the noisiest humbucker Ive ever owned. So loud I thought it was broken.

My Custom Shop IM1 hums a bit too, but much more bearable than Jb. Plus, the tone is worth the little bit iof buzz.

The buzz wasnt too bad with the Custom Custom as I recall.

best bet, though, is to select a pickup to grt the tone you want and invest in a good noise gate.

Thanks, dotsdad. I've been choosing according to tone - for decades. But, I really don't want the noise anymore. After my last expensive boutique noisy bucker purchase, I don't want to do that again. Sounds great. But the noise is distractingly loud.

 

[dotsdad]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

If you dont want noise, get some classic stack plus. Seriously dude..great tone, no noise. Put em in your strat and worship to your hearts content.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

wagz- here is the bottom line:

You are basically asking for the following:

I want dead silent
I want it in an an environment that won't give it to me
I won't use the one thing that might allow it

Was I rude? Absolutely - I apologize. Did I nail your issue? Right between the eyes. You want what doesn't exist - a number of guys have told you that, and given you ways to achieve it, yet you are continuing to argue with them.

I wish you luck on your quest. But I met guys like you before. Believe me - feel for you. I realize that there are simply people that "noise" averse. You simply have unrealistic expectations. You are like someone who is angry that their car gets bad mileage, and you want a more efficient carburetor. Yet you drive a 1973 Lincoln Continental in the city. The carburetor is not the source of the problem. You are on a quest chasing windmills.

High end full shielding, active pickups. Many people said it. Or change something else....I really do not believe you will not get "That tone, with that gear, in that place, that way"

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

I just made another video (not posted, yet). In it, I speak about about how that this isn't merely dirty power issue that the cheap Mustang isn't necessarily the problem - by demonstrating that the noise is still there with both an expensive handwired Marshall and a small battery powered Fender amp.

I'll wait for the video, but IME dirty power will affect just about any amp the same; whether expensive hand-wired or not. But I'll wait to see what you are talking about.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

By the way I just watched your video. I couldn't understand what the heck Squire you were talking about. But for the 1/2 second it was on camera it looks like one of those double slug pickups, like this one? http://shop.fender.com/en-US/squier...trat-with-tremolo-hss/0310005506.html#start=1

So that's literally exactly what I was talking about. The noise you're referring to is magnetic in nature. That pickup has two rows of the same sized slugs, and a Ceramic magnet. That's a low noise magnetic circuit, like what I said.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

If you dont want noise, get some classic stack plus. Seriously dude..great tone, no noise. Put em in your strat and worship to your hearts content.

I have dead-quiet stacks on the way. Tried to get the Duncans (shop floor custom), but due to an issue w/ the retailer... No dice. Unfortunately, no Duncans for me.

wagz- here is the bottom line:

You are basically asking for the following:

I want dead silent
I want it in an an environment that won't give it to me
I won't use the one thing that might allow it

Was I rude? Absolutely - I apologize. Did I nail your issue? Right between the eyes. You want what doesn't exist - a number of guys have told you that, and given you ways to achieve it, yet you are continuing to argue with them.

I wish you luck on your quest. But I met guys like you before. Believe me - feel for you. I realize that there are simply people that "noise" averse. You simply have unrealistic expectations. You are like someone who is angry that their car gets bad mileage, and you want a more efficient carburetor. Yet you drive a 1973 Lincoln Continental in the city. The carburetor is not the source of the problem. You are on a quest chasing windmills.

High end full shielding, active pickups. Many people said it. Or change something else....I really do not believe you will not get "That tone, with that gear, in that place, that way"

Aceman, I know that I have given a tall order. I am being realistic. I don't exactly demand 100% total noise rejection from the humbucker (or else). I set the goal this high because I know that I don't have the greatest environment. And, changing some of the factors contributing to that is really beyond my control, at this time. But, if I have a humbucker that has an excellent s/n ratio (like a stack, which is able to overcome these circumstances), I believe that I can obtain a more than acceptable result. As a matter of fact, I have been playing the Squier in my apartment for hours tonight. Even in this real-world, everyday-living, noisy environment, it is very, very quiet. I am quite pleased with it. I consider the goal to have been met, with this pickup. Unicorns exist! And, I have caught up to the windmill! But, still, I do want to know what else like it is out there. I accept your apology and would like to move on, if possible. Also, thank you taking time to offer me your advice.

I'll wait for the video, but IME dirty power will affect just about any amp the same; whether expensive hand-wired or not. But I'll wait to see what you are talking about.

I was referring to dirty power not being a factor because I would be using a battery powered amp. I only filmed and brought up the handwired Marshall because people seemed to be suggesting that my noise issue was due to me using the less expensive Fender Mustang in the first vid. I was, in no way, saying that more expensive amps aren't susceptible to dirty power. I'm wasn't sure that I would post the second vid... But, since you mentioned it, I can.

By the way I just watched your video. I couldn't understand what the heck Squire you were talking about. But for the 1/2 second it was on camera it looks like one of those double slug pickups, like this one? http://shop.fender.com/en-US/squier...trat-with-tremolo-hss/0310005506.html#start=1

So that's literally exactly what I was talking about. The noise you're referring to is magnetic in nature. That pickup has two rows of the same sized slugs, and a Ceramic magnet. That's a low noise magnetic circuit, like what I said.

Yup. That's the guitar! Yes. It has two rows of slugs. Sorry. I told others about the pickup. But, I guess I neglected to mention those specs here? It's def. low noise, too. You were correct. Thank you for your expertise.

I found an interesting post while scouring this forum. I'm wondering if I can convert my new PAF to a less noisy new PAF by switching the magnet to ceramic, as this person has done:

Well ... I have good news

This morning I decided to swap the magnets of the JB (alnico 5) and the Yamaha (ceramic) pickups.

The result is that now the Yamaha pickup has the same noise as the JB had before and the JB is now noise free :13:

Here are the measurements:

JB with Alnico 5 (original combination)

JB with Ceramic (mod)

Yamaha with Ceramic (original combination)

Yamaha with Alnico 5 (mod)

There is a difference in the sound of JB - it is a bit less smooth, but it still sounds like JB. The major difference is that there is no hum at all. As you can see from the measurements, the JB even has less noise now - I suppose this is due to the JB shielding which does not exist in the Yamaha pickup (I have checked that).

I'm really happy now :smokin:

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

I'll wait for the video, but IME dirty power will affect just about any amp the same; whether expensive hand-wired or not. But I'll wait to see what you are talking about.

Here you go.

My apologies for the sideways view and the poor quality audio. I was using my cheap cellphone to record the video. Anyway, the video isn't really necessary, since Frank confirmed the actual issue.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

I found an interesting post while scouring this forum. I'm wondering if I can convert my new PAF to a less noisy new PAF by switching the magnet to ceramic, as this person has done:

Well ... I have good news

This morning I decided to swap the magnets of the JB (alnico 5) and the Yamaha (ceramic) pickups.

The result is that now the Yamaha pickup has the same noise as the JB had before and the JB is now noise free :13:

Here are the measurements:

JB with Alnico 5 (original combination)

JB with Ceramic (mod)

There is a difference in the sound of JB - it is a bit less smooth, but it still sounds like JB. The major difference is that there is no hum at all. As you can see from the measurements, the JB even has less noise now - I suppose this is due to the JB shielding which does not exist in the Yamaha pickup (I have checked that).

I'm really happy now :smokin:

That's great if they don't hear hum in person, but a frequency plot doesn't show whether there is noise or not, just that the frequency spectrum is different. Unless someone can point out which peaks are sound or response impulses vs noise/hum?

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

In my continued quest to get my guitars to operate to my preferences, I would like to know:

Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Here is the straight answer to that particular question; you get the best signal to noise ratio when the two humbucking coils are absolutely identical. Now, a lot of people think that means the same number of winds with a given gauge of wire, but that's exactly true, the truth is that they need to achieve identical inductances so that they will produce identical cancelling voltages. If the inductances differ, then the voltages will differ and you will get noise.

In general, you will get identical inductances for a given number of winds, regardless of the wire gauge. It doesn't matter if one coil is wound with 42 AWG and the other with 43 AWG. In fact, DiMarzio patented just that, because it works, and they patent everything. The real catch is the core material, you might have the same number of winds, but the screws in one coil will cause that coil to have a different inductance than the slug coil, so you will get a difference in inductance, and raise the noise floor. Most of DiMarzio's line, and other humbuckers that have the same type of pole piece in both coils will therefore be quieter, unless the person who used screws and slug coils together put forth the extra effort to offset the wind count in order to achieve the same inductance for both coils.

A metal cover will also improve the S/N ratio.

Any noise beyond that is external to the pickup.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Here is the straight answer to that particular question; you get the best signal to noise ratio when the two humbucking coils are absolutely identical. Now, a lot of people think that means the same number of winds with a given gauge of wire, but that's exactly true, the truth is that they need to achieve identical inductances so that they will produce identical cancelling voltages. If the inductances differ, then the voltages will differ and you will get noise.

In general, you will get identical inductances for a given number of winds, regardless of the wire gauge. It doesn't matter if one coil is wound with 42 AWG and the other with 43 AWG. In fact, DiMarzio patented just that, because it works, and they patent everything. The real catch is the core material, you might have the same number of winds, but the screws in one coil will cause that coil to have a different inductance than the slug coil, so you will get a difference in inductance, and raise the noise floor. Most of DiMarzio's line, and other humbuckers that have the same type of pole piece in both coils will therefore be quieter, unless the person who used screws and slug coils together put forth the extra effort to offset the wind count in order to achieve the same inductance for both coils.

A metal cover will also improve the S/N ratio.

Anything noise beyond that is external to the pickup.

Thanks, thanaton. Are you aware of any stock models in any brand that are built symmetrically, with the same inductance on each coil? And, are there any that you have come across (wound the way you mentioned) that you like the sound of?

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Thanks, thanaton. Are you aware of any stock models in any brand that are built symmetrically, with the same inductance on each coil? And, are there any that you have come across (wound the way you mentioned) that you like the sound of?

My answer is more technical; as in what it technically takes to make a very quiet humbucker, but in practice no manufacturer that I know of promises that their coils will be perfectly matched for inductance. If they achieve 90% or 95% noise reduction, that's considered good enough, they don't want to spend the time and money to achieve that last 5%.

If I had to choose a humbucker for myself that was most likely very quiet based on these facts, I'd go for the DiMarzio PAF Pro. It has two coils of identical hex screws and keeper bars within, both coils use the same size of wire, which just ensures that the manufacture is more simplistic and less error prone, and I assume they are wound with an automated winding machine, improving coil to coil consistency all the more.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

My answer is more technical; as in what it technically takes to make a very quiet humbucker, but in practice no manufacturer that I know of promises that their coils will be perfectly matched for inductance. If they achieve 90% or 95% noise reduction, that's considered good enough, they don't want to spend the time and money to achieve that last 5%.

If I had to choose a humbucker for myself that was most likely very quiet based on these facts, I'd go for the DiMarzio PAF Pro. It has two coils of identical hex screws and keeper bars within, both coils use the same size of wire, which just ensures that the manufacture is more simplistic and less error prone, and I assume they are wound with an automated winding machine, improving coil to coil consistency all the more.

Thanks!
I'll certainly look into that pup.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

The highest signal-to-noise in Duncan p'ups will probably be the Full Shred set, modded with ceramic magnets.

If your play Modern Metal, tone-wise speaking, this set works very well for that, although the cleans might lean on the "cold" and/or "sterile" side.

Unfortunately, your just can't have it all... and maybe you won't like it, but the actual solution to your problem, using a product that actually exists, giving the best balance between signal-to-noise AND great tone at the same time, definately is the Fluence Classic humbucker pickup set, bare none.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but, after all, it's you that asked about it, isn't it?

HTH,

 

[AlexR]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Surely a noise gate is the answer.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

That's a good point about the ceramic producing a better S/N ratio. The Stag Mag might be even better though, because you get an even higher flux concentration with AlNiCo pole pieces than you do with ceramic under steel screws and slugs.

Personally, I've tried many hotter PAFs, and cooler PAFs that mimic Filter'trons, and I always come back to the original recipe of 7k - 8k, 42 AWG PAF specs, which is why I'd personally go for the PAF Pro if I wanted a sound I like, and some mild assurance of perfectly matched coils.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

The highest signal-to-noise in Duncan p'ups will probably be the Full Shred set, modded with ceramic magnets.

If your play Modern Metal, tone-wise speaking, this set works very well for that, although the cleans might lean on the "cold" and/or "sterile" side.

Unfortunately, your just can't have it all... and maybe you won't like it, but the actual solution to your problem, using a product that actually exists, giving the best balance between signal-to-noise AND great tone at the same time, definately is the Fluence Classic humbucker pickup set, bare none.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but, after all, it's you that asked about it, isn't it?

HTH,

Thanks for listing the Full Shred, LtKojak. I don't play modern metal, but I'll see if I can find a guitar around here with that pickup in it.

About the Fluence: I created this thread specifically asking about passive humbuckers. And, I would prefer to talk about passive buckers because I already know that I like them and that they can be sufficiently quiet to work for me. I am only talking about the Fluence stuff because you folks keep bringing it up. I have no intention to bash Fishman or the hard-working, intelligent, and creative people that designed/built the Fluence.

Last time I checked, the Fluence Classic humbucker pickup set is not exactly passive. But, assuming that I am willing to buy a non-passive pickup set (I will consider it), I would, at least, have to like the tones that I hear coming from it in clips, recordings, videos, and/or in person. The Fluence Classic set may have a superior noise ratio, but I have yet to hear "great tone" coming from it in any recording. LtKojak, please provide links, recordings, or media made with the Fluence Classics that demonstrate the great tone you spoke of. Maybe, I am listening to the wrong clips? Tone is kind of a subjective thing, I know. But, thus far, I just am not hearing "great tone" in any of the Fishman Fluence Classic humbucker stuff I'm coming across. I'm not saying this to argue. I just, honestly, haven't heard this "great tone" you speak of, yet. And, I don't really take what you are saying about the Fluence as bad news. I have looked excitedly and periodically into it since it first came out. I didn't start this thread because I want a noisy or horrible tone. But, speaking of acceptable losses, trade-offs, and balance... To me, the Fluence media that I have heard sounds horrible enough that I would rather just keep my noisy pickups than use any of the Fluence gear. LtKojak, again, I invite you to change my mind about the FluenceClassic humbucker set by demonstrating it's "great tone" - a tone that I would be willing to pay for. I like some very cheap humbuckers. So,I think that it shouldn't be a hard thing for these buckers to meet or exceed my tonal standards. Also, what about the HSS thing? I play an HSS Strat. So, how would I get that in a Fluence system? I was considering buying a Fluence set, but I didn't find an HSS set.

BTW, personally, I like what they did with the battery backplate thing. Very nice! Good job, Fishman!

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Surely a noise gate is the answer.

I only want to use a gate at a low or very, very low threshold - to obtain something like "digital black".

That's a good point about the ceramic producing a better S/N ratio. The Stag Mag might be even better though, because you get an even higher flux concentration with AlNiCo pole pieces than you do with ceramic under steel screws and slugs.

Personally, I've tried many hotter PAFs, and cooler PAFs that mimic Filter'trons, and I always come back to the original recipe of 7k - 8k, 42 AWG PAF specs, which is why I'd personally go for the PAF Pro if I wanted a sound I like, and some mild assurance of perfectly matched coils.

I looked around for a guitar with PAF Pro pickups today. I didn't find one, yet. I did listen to a bunch of pickups though.

Ibanez JEM77 BRMR DiMarzio Breed Humbucker - NOISY
Ibanez JEM 20th Anniversary Steve Vai Acrylic LED Lights Trans JEM humbucker - NOISY
Ibanez Xiphos XPT700 Extended 27-Fret DiMarzio Air Norton-S single-coil pickup (neck position) DiMarzio D Activator humbucker (bridge position): Both NOISY
Ibanez Gio GAX70 Humbucker with slug pole pieces on both coils - DEAD QUIET
Duncan Invader (neck)- Quieter, but not super-quiet.
Jackson JS30K CVR Humbucker (looked like an EMG with it's black cover) - DEAD QUIET
Jackson JS20 and JS1 guitars- They had identical (ceramic, I assume) humbuckers with slug pole pieces on both coils - DEAD QUIET
PRS HFS (In the Custom 24 that I tried yesterday) - DEAD QUIET
Fender Coronado Fideli'TRON bucker - Very NOISY
Godin Session (looks like an HSS strat)- Not Quiet. But, not the noisiest, either.

I tried a bunch of other cheap guitars with what I assume were ceramic humbuckers with slug pole pieces on both coils. Many of them were noisy. Some were not as noisy as others. I listed above the ones that were dead quiet. I was hoping that all of those DiMarzios were going to be quiet pups. I didn't check their specs.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

I looked around for a guitar with PAF Pro pickups today. I didn't find one, yet. I did listen to a bunch of pickups though.

Ibanez JEM77 BRMR DiMarzio Breed Humbucker - NOISY
Ibanez JEM 20th Anniversary Steve Vai Acrylic LED Lights Trans JEM humbucker - NOISY
Ibanez Xiphos XPT700 Extended 27-Fret DiMarzio Air Norton-S single-coil pickup (neck position) DiMarzio D Activator humbucker (bridge position): Both NOISY
Ibanez Gio GAX70 Humbucker with slug pole pieces on both coils - DEAD QUIET
Duncan Invader (neck)- Quieter, but not super-quiet.
Jackson JS30K CVR Humbucker (looked like an EMG with it's black cover) - DEAD QUIET
Jackson JS20 and JS1 guitars- They had identical (ceramic, I assume) humbuckers with slug pole pieces on both coils - DEAD QUIET
PRS HFS (In the Custom 24 that I tried yesterday) - DEAD QUIET
Fender Coronado Fideli'TRON bucker - Very NOISY
Godin Session (looks like an HSS strat)- Not Quiet. But, not the noisiest, either.

I tried a bunch of other cheap guitars with what I assume were ceramic humbuckers with slug pole pieces on both coils. Many of them were noisy. Some were not as noisy as others. I listed above the ones that were dead quiet. I was hoping that all of thos DiMarzios were going to be quiet pups. I didn't check their specs.

You don't rule out the wiring of the guitar being partly to blame for the noise when you try entirely different guitars.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

You don't rule out the wiring of the guitar being partly to blame for the noise when you try entirely different guitars.

I didn't rule out the wiring of the guitars. I was just making observations of which pickups were quiet in models that I came across. That Ibanez Gio GAX70 was exceptionally quiet, for instance. I was too busy @ work to take it apart and have a look at it. I wonder what the wiring is like inside that guitar...

I did find it interesting that, out of all of the guitars I checked out today, the quietest ones seemed to all have ceramic. It's just an observation. I'm not saying, "ceramic = quiet" or anything like that. But, it kinda makes me pay attention when multiple Jackson guitars with ceramic pickups are dead quiet. I've opened up the one with the CVRs before, as it was my benchmark for noise. It was shielded and wired well.

As a test, maybe I should take my new AlNiCo PAF and drop it into that exceptionally quiet GAX70 and put it's humbucker into my Strat.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

I did find it interesting that, out of all of the guitars I checked out today, the quietest ones seemed to all have ceramic. It's just an observation. I'm not saying, "ceramic = quiet" or anything like that.

Ceramic will actually produce a better S/N ratio, all other things being equal, because the higher flux density causes a great flux change through the pickup coils. That was mentioned by LTKojak a few posts back. On the other and, it's generally agreed that ceramic will produces a "harsher" tone, so it comes with a trade off. I'd favor AlNiCo 8 over ceramic for the purpose.