Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

[frankfalbo]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Ceramic will actually produce a better S/N ratio, all other things being equal, because the higher flux density causes a great flux change through the pickup coils. That was mentioned by LTKojak a few posts back. On the other and, it's generally agreed that ceramic will produces a "harsher" tone, so it comes with a trade off. I'd favor AlNiCo 8 over ceramic for the purpose.

I had pointed out that Ceramic makes for a lower noise pickup, all things being equal. It's not the gauss strength creating more output. It's the material itself picking up less noise. Inductance and permeability play a role. Basically if I degaussed a Ceramic down to match an Alnico 2 or 5, so the pickup's output was the same, the Alnicos would still be noisier. So Alnico 8 isn't really the better choice. It'll pick up more noise.

 

[dave74]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

For it's output level the x2n is reasonably quiet IMO.

 

[vinnie1971]

Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Lighting - any lighting or transformers will create hum that no humbucker can get rid of. In my basement I have halogen spotlights and had to move my amp elsewhere, the hum sounded like either all my guitars or my amp had a grounding issue. It was THAT noisy.
In my experience no humbucker is as quiet as positions 2 and 4 in a strat, even when the strat is wired to have series/parallel switching....
turning presence down helps get rid of noise when using effects I find.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

The Fluence Classic set may have a superior noise ratio, but I have yet to hear "great tone" coming from it in any recording. Tone is kind of a subjective thing, I know. But, thus far, I just am not hearing "great tone" in any of the Fishman Fluence Classic humbucker stuff I'm coming across.

The only way to assess "great tone" is to personally sit down with an instrument with the Fluence set correctly installed, and I've mentioned'em just because I think they'll be the best solution for your very "particular" mindset about what you wanna accomplish, and as just I had such a pleasing playing experience with'em, hence the recommendation.



Anyway, this vid shows in certain passages where the guitar can be heard over that incredible noisy environment and if you can go beyond the all-around poopy smartphone recording, that "vintage vibe" of passive PAF-like p'ups can be achieved by the Fluences. It starts at about 06:15.

If you don't find'em appealing at all, it's ok. De gustibus non disputandum est.

HTH,

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

I had pointed out that Ceramic makes for a lower noise pickup, all things being equal. It's not the gauss strength creating more output. It's the material itself picking up less noise. Inductance and permeability play a role. Basically if I degaussed a Ceramic down to match an Alnico 2 or 5, so the pickup's output was the same, the Alnicos would still be noisier. So Alnico 8 isn't really the better choice. It'll pick up more noise.

First, more flux density will increase the potential flux difference at raise the output. That's why a pickup with a degaussed magnet will be produce less output than one with a fully charged magnet.

Second, the mechanism by which you're saying the AlNiCo produces noise by way of inductance and/or permeability is not apparent and not readily obvious, so I think that requires more explanation.

AlNiCo is electrically conductive, but it's touching the "ground" side of the circuit, so if anything, it should be acting as shielding, not an antenna for noise. The conductivity and permeability of the AlNiCo should further reduce noise by way of eddy currents. The same eddy currents that cancel high end response should also cancel external EMI through the same mechanism.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Well then you'll have to try it. I'm not wrong. Ceramic is quieter than Alnico in a humbucker, even if it's degaussed down to the exact same gauss strength as the Alnico. Get a PAF Pro or Full Shred, and try it with the stock Alnico and then magnet swap for a ceramic. Install in a guitar so the strings and your body are part of the shield, and let us know what happens.

Also I wasn't saying that higher gauss strength doesn't increase the output. I was saying that it's not the increase in signal alone that is increasing the s/n ratio. I'm saying the noise when the strings are at rest is less with the ceramic.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Ceramic doesn't readily degauss. I don't even know if it can be done at home.

The AlNiCo will increase the inductance of the coils slightly, so you can't just swap ceramic for AlNiCo and pretend that noise level was the only thing that changed. It might well be the case that ceramic seems quieter for no other reason than you lowered the inductance of the coils. This isn't reducing the S/N ratio though, as lowering the inductance will lower the overall output of the pickup, both signal and noise included.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

The AlNiCo will increase the inductance of the coils slightly, so you can't just swap ceramic for AlNiCo and pretend that noise level was the only thing that changed. It might well be the case that ceramic seems quieter for no other reason than you lowered the inductance of the coils. This isn't reducing the S/N ratio though, as lowering the inductance will lower the overall output of the pickup, both signal and noise included.

do you have documentation of that? and if so, how did you arrive at your conclusions (i.e., what specific methods)?

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

do you have documentation of that? and if so, how did you arrive at your conclusions (i.e., what specific methods)?

OK, I took a Gibson 57 Classic, with the AlNiCo 2 bar in place I see 4.8H at 120Hz on my LCR meter. Slide the magnet out, the LCR meter now reads 4.4H. Simple as that.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

OK, I took a Gibson 57 Classic, with the AlNiCo 2 bar in place I see 4.8H at 120Hz on my LCR meter. Slide the magnet out, the LCR meter now reads 4.4H. Simple as that.

that addresses the inductance. how about "lowering the inductance will lower the overall output of the pickup, both signal and noise included." how much lower was the noise?





speaking of Fluence, here is relatively recent recording done with those pickups w/ Ibanez guitar and Friedman amps.

the artist previously used Duncans.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

or a live recording of another artist using Fluence in a Charvel

this guy used to also use Duncans

maybe those will help a little with an idea of the Fluence, outside of any "demo level" sort of material

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

that addresses the inductance. how about "lowering the inductance will lower the overall output of the pickup, both signal and noise included." how much lower was the noise?

It's in the fact that L is multiplied by di/dt. Noise and signal are both di/dt.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

although the intent of my question ("how much lower was the noise?") was clear, allow me to rephrase more specifically (and simply) with regard to this post:

OK, I took a Gibson 57 Classic, with the AlNiCo 2 bar in place I see 4.8H at 120Hz on my LCR meter. Slide the magnet out, the LCR meter now reads 4.4H. Simple as that.

did you have that pickup in a guitar that was plugged into an amp to listen for more/less noise between the alnico and ceramic magnets?

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

did you have that pickup in a guitar that was plugged into an amp to listen for more/less noise between the alnico and ceramic magnets?

If you think that a practical demonstration will lead to the defiance of physics, then I will leave the burden of proving that to you.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Ceramic will actually produce a better S/N ratio, all other things being equal, because the higher flux density causes a great flux change through the pickup coils. That was mentioned by LTKojak a few posts back. On the other and, it's generally agreed that ceramic will produces a "harsher" tone, so it comes with a trade off. I'd favor AlNiCo 8 over ceramic for the purpose.

Yes. kmensik and big_teee at the music-electronics-forum(dot com) told me that ceramic is indeed quieter than alnico. frankfalbo and a few of you knowledgeable folks have confirmed what they said. I appreciate you all sharing this knowledge with me. I'll certainly be on the lookout for a ceramic with a more pleasing tone.

For it's output level the x2n is reasonably quiet IMO.

We have an Ibanez destroyer with X2N pickups @ the shop. I meant to pull it down yesterday after I plugged in the guitar with the Invader, but we were busy. I'll check it out. Thanks, dave74!

Lighting - any lighting or transformers will create hum that no humbucker can get rid of. In my basement I have halogen spotlights and had to move my amp elsewhere, the hum sounded like either all my guitars or my amp had a grounding issue. It was THAT noisy.
In my experience no humbucker is as quiet as positions 2 and 4 in a strat, even when the strat is wired to have series/parallel switching....
turning presence down helps get rid of noise when using effects I find.

LOL. Yeah. I go around my apartment unplugging lights and stuff to see who's the culprit causing all this racket, gummin' up the works, and messin' with my noise floor.

The only way to assess "great tone" is to personally sit down with an instrument with the Fluence set correctly installed, and I've mentioned'em just because I think they'll be the best solution for your very "particular" mindset about what you wanna accomplish, and as just I had such a pleasing playing experience with'em, hence the recommendation.

I would be willing to try them in person. But, not for the 300 (plus?) dollars that it would take to buy a Classic humbucker set and get it into my hands. If I don't like them, I'll have to sell them at a loss or add them to the small pile of pickups I haven't been able to sell - D.Allen Voodoo/Echoes, Lollar P90's, D.Allen Johnny Blades, Vintage Vibe HP90, etc... I should be able to find some video or recording somewhere that demonstrates the great tone of these Fluence pickups. I'm scouring the net. But, what I keep hearing from them is a strident, harsh, non-organic, not-quite-3D sort of tone that doesn't sound so sweet to my ears. Active or not - I will more than likely buy it if it sounds good while solving my noise issues. Greg Koch is a very, very good guitarist. And, he is very entertaining. But, the tone in that clip is pretty harsh. Even when he plays "clean", there is a fuzziness around the notes that I don't care for. To each his own. But, it's not for me. I don't think that I've come across one clip in which he demos the Fluence and doesn't have it sounding broken up or slightly fuzzy, or clipped-sounding. Maybe he likes that gristle-tone. TBH, I have typically found Greg's tones harsh (for years, I considered going with Bardens and watched his vids with those pickups). Or, maybe whoever recorded the audio (in nearly every Greg Koch Fluence video I've ever seen, which is highly unlikely) just clipped the input/output by not controlling the levels. I don't know. Can the Fluence Classic humbucker set actually obtain a clean tone (CLEAN CLEAN - no break up) in voice two? I've yet to hear that Classic humbucker set match or exceed the depth and tone of my Vintage Vibe HP90 pickups in any clip/video. I'll even post a vid demonstrating their tone and depth. I recorded this with only my low-quality, cheap cellphone, too. To me, it sounds much more musical than the Fluence clips that I have heard. (Not my playing - the pickups and sweet tone.)

But, you can be sure that I'm trying hard to like the Fluence stuff and am a potential customer. Because, as you said, I have a "very "particular" mindset" about what I want to accomplish. I am actually looking for reasons to purchase a set. But, they have to meet my tonal standard. With the Fluence, is there some sort of internal control that would let me dial it in to sound less nasty? Also, how do you do an HSS setup with this system? I saw that Gary Hoey seemed to have one pretty early on. As a kid, I thought Hoey was very cool. Are there going to be more models coming out soon?

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Yes. kmensik and big_teee at the music-electronics-forum(dot com) told me that ceramic is indeed quieter than alnico. frankfalbo and a few of you knowledgeable folks have confirmed what they said. I appreciate you all sharing this knowledge with me. I'll certainly be on the lookout for a ceramic with a more pleasing tone.

Just to be clear, signal to noise is a ratio, so in the case of the ceramic, the ceramic is increasing the signal, not decreasing the noise.

When you plug in a guitar with ceramic pickups, it should sound louder overall, so the ratio now favors signal, but the noise is about the same, so you turn down the volume on the amp to bring it back down to a comfortable listening level, and it's at that point that the noise is effectively reduced. That's just something to keep in mind when you're demo'ing the guitars.

Since you are demoing entirely different guitars, also note the height of the pickup. Getting the pickups closer to the strings also increases the S/N ratio, so if a guitar sounds really quiet or really noisy, make sure the pickups aren't really close, or really far from the strings, respectively.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

or a live recording of another artist using Fluence in a Charvel

this guy used to also use Duncans

maybe those will help a little with an idea of the Fluence, outside of any "demo level" sort of material

speaking of Fluence, here is relatively recent recording done with those pickups w/ Ibanez guitar and Friedman amps.

the artist previously used Duncans.

It's kinda hard to tell from the video, but it looks like Satchel is using the Modern buckers. Are the guys from "Plenty Heavy" (is that the name of the band?) using Classic buckers or the Modern Fluence buckers?

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Just to be clear, signal to noise is a ratio, so in the case of the ceramic, the ceramic is increasing the signal, not decreasing the noise.

When you plug in a guitar with ceramic pickups, it should sound louder overall, so the ratio now favors signal, but the noise is about the same...

In my experience (and this ain't my first rodeo) you...are...wrong. The noise floor will decrease. Now either go, plug in a guitar and swap magnets and spin around a room like a rockstar, or stop telling lies that you made up out of your current knowledge base.

 

[thanaton]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

In my experience (and this ain't my first rodeo) you...are...wrong. The noise floor will decrease. Now either go, plug in a guitar and swap magnets and spin around a room like a rockstar, or stop telling lies that you made up out of your current knowledge base.

It is a fact of physics that ceramic will increase the flux density at the string, increasing the signal voltage, while the noise level remains unchanged. It is also a fact that the ceramic will lower the overall inductance of the coil(s). So it will seem like the noise floor is lower, but the reality is that you have a) increased the signal voltage, but b) lowered the overall voltage. So an experiment would agree with your observation, it's your explanation that I don't agree with.

 

[wagz]

Re: Which passive full size humbuckers have the best signal to noise ratio?

Just to be clear, signal to noise is a ratio, so in the case of the ceramic, the ceramic is increasing the signal, not decreasing the noise.

When you plug in a guitar with ceramic pickups, it should sound louder overall, so the ratio now favors signal, but the noise is about the same, so you turn down the volume on the amp to bring it back down to a comfortable listening level, and it's at that point that the noise is effectively reduced. That's just something to keep in mind when you're demo'ing the guitars.

Since you are demoing entirely different guitars, also note the height of the pickup. Getting the pickups closer to the strings also increases the S/N ratio, so if a guitar sounds really quiet or really noisy, make sure the pickups aren't really close, or really far from the strings, respectively.

Ok. Thank you for pointing that out. I will try to keep those things about the distances in mind when demoing the pickups. Yesterday, I even adjusted the heights of the pickups on one of the Ibanez guitars I was checking out for this very casual sort of comparison. They were much too high. Now, I didn't break out rulers, digital calipers, or audio meters to measure variables such as height, distance, string gauges, output or many of the other variables. But, I can tell you that, casually demoing my guitars and the ones in the shop, I seemed to be getting about the same level of output on many of the guitars. And, still certain ceramic-equipped guitars were quieter than the ones with AlNiCo pickups, although overall levels seemed to be about the same. And, by "quieter", I mean dead quiet - better s/n ratio. In many cases, it wasn't even close. I don't recall coming across even one dead quiet guitar that didn't have dual slug pole pieces and ceramics, yesterday. To account for all of the variables that factor into why those guitars are that quiet - I simply didn't have them time to do it yesterday because I was busy repairing guitars and helping customers. And, I won't even pretend to have the tools or expertise to address every factor in this equation.