Which way would you go Money not an object

[mantis]

Ok Folks,
Building a pedal board is always a life time achievement and trial and error experience. We all love our pedals , some of us love our Multi effects Processors. Some of us like me are in the middle with issues.

So today as I search for my next setup I'm finding so many options it's actually over whelming. Reason is I can't just drive down to my local music stores and plug in and try them all or even some of them out.

My needs are simple yet need control. Effects wise I only need the following as I don't really use anything else which is why Pedals is very attractive to go back to.
OD , Noise Gate , OCT pedal , Boost out front and in the loop Volume Pedal Delay , Chorus and Reverb.
So as you can see I don't use a ton of effects. I don't use all of them ever in a patch. Currently I use a Boss GT-100 and it serves me well but I know I can improve on my sound quality by either going pedals or a better quality effects processor.

So if I go pedals I'm gonna want one of the controllers to go with them That has Midi control , pedal routing and or amp control VIA stereo 1/4 out. That will greatly depend on if I keep my current amp Krank Revolution 1 which requires 1/4 stereo to switch amp channels and lead or I'm thinking of getting the Mesa Boogie JP2C which has 3 channels and Midi control with Built in Reverb so that could make my pedal board even smaller which I like.

So Money is no object and I just want to buy what suits my needs and do it well. I'm strongly considering the TC Electronics G system as it gets great reviews and I'm relying on my Love for TC's Pedals which always sound amazing. I'm also a Boss Pedal fan but the GT-100 just adds some un wanted I'll call it digital Fizz to my Gain channel and slighty compresses my Clean channel. I'm totally anal about my tone so giving up the awesome control of the GT-100 isn't that hard but it is as I love everything about it except the Fizz.
I'm gonna assume most guitar players would be in heaven with the GT-100 as it is a great unit. I know I can do better and I also know Boss could make a higher quality unit. I would pay over$1000 for a better quality better sounding more analog sounding unit without Modeling. I think Boss does the worse job at it as actually I hate the modeling in the GT's over all the years as I have owned the last 3.

So Modeling isn't something I use. I like finding an amp that expresses my tone which the Krank does a wonderful Job at that but I'm very attracted the the Mesa Boogie as it also has the Bite I love. It's clean channel seems to be almost as good as the Krank which sounds like a Fender with no break up at all. It's clean all day long and wonderful at that. Boss ruined any desire I would ever have for modeling amps so I'll stick old school tubes and raw amp tone. It's who I am and thats that.

So If you where me and had my needs what would you use? Would a all in one Multi effects be the way to go? Can you get the same sound quality as pedals with one? The GT-100 comes close as the effects in it are top notch but you would have to hear what I'm talking about with lets call it tone suck as I read that a lot from other guitar players. If you use pedals my amp sounds exactly the same as it does. When I wire the GT-100 up in the 4CM, the tonal quality changes. The clean is still clean but compressed. The Drive channel seems weaker as if someone lowered the gain and then added some fizz instead of being tight. My Gain channel is tight and if you never heard a Revolution 1 it sound sorter between a Mesa Mark series high gain and a 5150 or 6505 but is clearer then both of them. It doesn't have the slight british mid range push both of those amps have. It might be the speakers those amps use in their cab's as mine has Eminence Legends which are super clean , super clear super killer low end and sparkle high end with clarity and no ear pearcing sting. I find those speakers to be the best on the market. I like them better then any Celeston made speaker. They are very like the Jensens found in older Twin Reverbs. They have the sonic clarity like a Fender Twin.

I like the idea of a all in one so I can build patches , have a limitless about of options with one button press but don't like the tone loss.
I like the sound of pedals but hate the control and limited options. Example your delay pedal gets setup and thats that. In a Processor you can setup delay any way you want and use it any way you want while playing. You can have as many different delay setups as you want and recall them with 1 press. That is stupid killer and that alone is wonderful and something pedal can not do alone.
With Pedals you have to get controller so you can setup presets and save them switch amp channels and whatever you want. This option I think would probably have the best sound quality NO? But limit your abilities and options.

Going back to Multieffects you gain ultimate control and limitless options but lose sound quality NO? Would a product like the TC electronics satisfy a pedal lovers sound quality but add all the features a multi effects processor does? TC IMO is well respected company and to me make awesome effects. I can't see the G system sucking ass but without plugging in and demoing it how would I know it's as good or better then what I already have? It does less but allows you to use some pedals and power them in their loops which to me is like the best of both worlds and seems like the right move. I damn just want to buy it but I have one thing holding me back. It's been out for a very long time and I'm wondering if TC is going to release a new version better and BADDER then the current model. I can with out owning it see many things I would improve on like added a Expression pedal / Volume control. I would put a much better screen on it with better clarity. I would probably add 1 or 2 more loops and thats about it. It's pretty bad ass already in it's current state.

The Helix looks cool but it's completely a modeling unit. Line 6 I don't think make their own effects they just copy everyone else. Boss is very attractive here as they make their own stuff and has been doing as long or longer then everyone else.

The FX-8 looks pretty damn killer but is it better then the TC G or GT-100 really?

I don't really see any other options unless someone in here comes up with a killer idea.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

Normally I just make the best of what I currently have and focus my time on practicing, writing songs and making a decent recording of it.

 

[mantis]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

Normally I just make the best of what I currently have and focus my time on practicing, writing songs and making a decent recording of it.

Thats all fine and dandy if you have what you want and need. In order to write songs , you need the tools that you can express yourself with and feel as if everything is coming together. When something seems out of line, the creative expression gets lost. At least for me it does. When my tone is on and I'm hearing what I want to hear, feel every note I can write what I feel, when it's not I can't.
So this is why I ask these questions to look for advice of others who may own some of these awesome tools available to us today which in history was not always the case.
And not to mention I'm a huge gear head and love gear probably more then playing itself. I would really make a great Guitar tech for someone with a lot more skills playing to I have LOL.

 

[HiFiRebel]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

I'm going to leave odd theory on songwriting alone.

These aren't that complicated of pedals. What kind of reveeb do you like? Spring, hall or gate? Is the Tubescreamer a yay or nay for you?

Once you have a few basic ideas then you can build from there.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

Can someone bullet that OP for me?

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

Can someone bullet that OP for me?

Ha, that's what I was thinking ... TL;DR, please. That is a WALL OF TEXT.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

First, why do you think your "tone" is not "where it should be", and are you certain it's the gear and not you? Perhaps a deeper, critical understanding and self-awareness of your abilities is what you need to focus on? Eric Clapton used what little was available. Hendrix used what little was available. Yes I know it's cliché to always bring up Ancient Masters of the Art, but perhaps too many options is your problem? You said yourself you like messing with gear more than actually playing. That's not a good thing if you're concerned with "tone quality" because you're not getting your sound out of whatever falls at your feet because you are the inconsistent variable in this.

Which amp are you going with, the Krank or the Mesa? You have to decide this. You already pointed out the big obvious difference in the sound of each one due to different speakers. Whether it's pedals or a rack, the speakers the sound comes out of will affect the tone.

The 4-cable-method of rack gear is not always a guaranteed "best option". It's trendy right now but doesn't always apply to every situation. Not every amp will benefit from this setup. I'd leave that for studio setups, personally.

Rack vs Pedals and perceived "tone suck". I really get tired of hearing this from a bunch of internet hobbyists.

It has been my experience that there is a distinct tonal difference between using pedals vs racks, and there is an equally distinct difference between using a single do-all rack and a rack preamp with external FX unit. The ADA MP-1 is just a preamp with one effect (Chorus) and some basic EQ. No Reverb, Delay, blah blah. The Digitech GSP-21 Legend has everything. Both sound completely different. Of course they're also made by 2 different companies, and you can't find a preamp-only Digitech or a do-all ADA, so the comparison is a bit weak.

However, when running one GSP-21 into another identical GSP-21, where the first one is using only the preamp and the 2nd only the FX section, there's a distinct tonal difference over using just one unit.

If you had a 15-piece rack with separate modules for each effect, all made by the same company, it would sound different from an all-in-one unit made by the same company using the same effects. That is just the nature of electrical signals.


As for Line6: no, they're not really known for having "signature" effects, like BOSS or DOD or TC, but their modeling is nothing to scoff at. I'm not sure if they're using actual circuit modeling or end-result modeling, but their version of a RAT sound like the real thing and has the same tonal characteristics, as does their version of the BK Butler Tube Driver, both of which I have and have compared side-by-side.

If you really want ultimate control over your effects, you can't have a small board. You're going to need a foot controller to select patches and at least 2 treadles to control effect parameters, unless you want outboard expression pedals, which is another viable and expandable option.

For what you're after, I'd say get a Line6 M13 and 2 expression pedals, or a Digitech GSP1101 and an ART X-15 ultrafoot. Both have all the effects you're going to need, and will provide the ability to control effect values with a foot. You don't have to use the preamp functions of the 1101 nor the OD/Dirt pedals of the M13 if you'd rather use the amp for that.

I can't speak for the TC or the GT100, I've never used them. I've been using an ADA MP-1 into a Digitech TSR-12 for the past 16+ years and have not found anything better for my needs since then.

 

[mantis]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

First, why do you think your "tone" is not "where it should be", and are you certain it's the gear and not you? Perhaps a deeper, critical understanding and self-awareness of your abilities is what you need to focus on? Eric Clapton used what little was available. Hendrix used what little was available. Yes I know it's cliché to always bring up Ancient Masters of the Art, but perhaps too many options is your problem? You said yourself you like messing with gear more than actually playing. That's not a good thing if you're concerned with "tone quality" because you're not getting your sound out of whatever falls at your feet because you are the inconsistent variable in this.

Which amp are you going with, the Krank or the Mesa? You have to decide this. You already pointed out the big obvious difference in the sound of each one due to different speakers. Whether it's pedals or a rack, the speakers the sound comes out of will affect the tone.

The 4-cable-method of rack gear is not always a guaranteed "best option". It's trendy right now but doesn't always apply to every situation. Not every amp will benefit from this setup. I'd leave that for studio setups, personally.

Rack vs Pedals and perceived "tone suck". I really get tired of hearing this from a bunch of internet hobbyists.

It has been my experience that there is a distinct tonal difference between using pedals vs racks, and there is an equally distinct difference between using a single do-all rack and a rack preamp with external FX unit. The ADA MP-1 is just a preamp with one effect (Chorus) and some basic EQ. No Reverb, Delay, blah blah. The Digitech GSP-21 Legend has everything. Both sound completely different. Of course they're also made by 2 different companies, and you can't find a preamp-only Digitech or a do-all ADA, so the comparison is a bit weak.

However, when running one GSP-21 into another identical GSP-21, where the first one is using only the preamp and the 2nd only the FX section, there's a distinct tonal difference over using just one unit.

If you had a 15-piece rack with separate modules for each effect, all made by the same company, it would sound different from an all-in-one unit made by the same company using the same effects. That is just the nature of electrical signals.


As for Line6: no, they're not really known for having "signature" effects, like BOSS or DOD or TC, but their modeling is nothing to scoff at. I'm not sure if they're using actual circuit modeling or end-result modeling, but their version of a RAT sound like the real thing and has the same tonal characteristics, as does their version of the BK Butler Tube Driver, both of which I have and have compared side-by-side.

If you really want ultimate control over your effects, you can't have a small board. You're going to need a foot controller to select patches and at least 2 treadles to control effect parameters, unless you want outboard expression pedals, which is another viable and expandable option.

For what you're after, I'd say get a Line6 M13 and 2 expression pedals, or a Digitech GSP1101 and an ART X-15 ultrafoot. Both have all the effects you're going to need, and will provide the ability to control effect values with a foot. You don't have to use the preamp functions of the 1101 nor the OD/Dirt pedals of the M13 if you'd rather use the amp for that.

I can't speak for the TC or the GT100, I've never used them. I've been using an ADA MP-1 into a Digitech TSR-12 for the past 16+ years and have not found anything better for my needs since then.

Thank you so much for your response.
So I hear everything your saying including playing with little etc. In my case I don't have to play with little. It comes down to a matter of Tone ease of use and having what I would like to use as tools to write my songs which I prefer over playing covers.
Today I hooked up all my pedals and I love the tone. My amp sounds like itself and man I can really get into playing when everything sounds as it should.
My Pedals are:

IN FRONT OF AMP
BOSS NS2 Noise Pedal( Guitar in Send ,to TS9 ,then to Spark then back to Noise gate then out to front of amp)
Ibanez Tube Screamer TS9
TC Electronics Spark full size

IN EFFECTS LOOP( In Oder in Loop)
Ernie Ball VP Volume Pedal
Boss Delay DD7
TC Electronics Hall of Fame Reverb
BBE Sonic Maximizer
I would like to add a OCT pedal by Boss out in front of the amp for those killer OCT tones.
I probably could just get one of those ES8's by Boss and call it a day. It has what I need except the correct style of amp contol unless I go with the Mesa Boogie then I can use Midi to change everything on the amp which would be killer. I probably will go that route in the near future. But for now the Krank will have to do.

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

Money no object? West and then north to Alaska ...

 

[dystrust]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

I've used a rack, I've used a head with a couple pedals and multi-fx, and I've also used two amps with pedals and an A/B/Y switcher. In short I've been in a similar place a few times, and this time I'm trying pedals with a loopmaster clean/dirty/channel switcher.

It sounds like you're considering a head and switcher, maybe with or without a few pedals. The TC G-System has a good reputation and sounds amazing; (I've demoed one a few times), but it has a few downsides as well. First and foremost, It'll only work with its own controller that uses Cat5 cables instead of midi. This makes finding a replacement cable easier, but you have zero options for a backup controller. It also tends to not be very good at controlling external midi devices (like the channels on that Mesa amp). The G-System is also considered end of life by TC, so there won't be any more updates and it may be difficult to get service if something goes wrong.

If I were building that sort of rig today, I'd use a Voodoo Lab GCX with a Ground Control Pro foot pedal. This setup doesn't include an effects processor or power supply, but it has 8 loops instead of 4, and controlling other midi devices is much easier. The Ground Control Pro is also dead easy to program. For multi-fx, a TC G-Major 2 sounds every bit as good as a G System. This rig costs a little more money, but it'll be easier to use and still under warranty.

The big downside with either of these rigs is that you're in big trouble in the case of a switching failure, and they can be HARD to troubleshoot when they're not working correctly. I used a similar rig from 2007-2009 and went back to pedals because of the complication and being tired of carrying so much gear.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

So If you where me and had my needs what would you use?

I'd get a Boss ES-5 or ES-8.

I'd use pedals for for OD, boost, octave and noise gate.

I'd use either midi controllable pedals or a rack multi effect for delay/reverb/chorus

I'd go Strymon Timeline/Mobius and use onboard reverb. I've tried going rack in the past, but I like being able to reach down and tweak things on the fly. I also like being able to easily add/remove things as I get bored/tastes change.

 

[Hank-]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

The Gmajor II would have you covered for chorus/reverb/delay/volume and maybe noise gate, has two amp relays too i think. Their new Sentry Noise gate is supposedly awesome, has the toneprint editor thing too.

The truetone VSXO could cover the OD& boost needs but too many options here, check out other options, mxr,wampler, duncan, etc.

The FX8 is a better option over Gsystem for continued customer support/update & is what you should invest in ideally since it will cover everything except a built in expression pedal. But getting individual pedals from various manufactures is fun & easier to zone in on a sound you really need to get quickly without deep editing, could get bulky & way expensive quickly too but if money ain't an option then.. Sure!

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

Money no object I'd do the high-end, MIDI controlled version of my stuff today.

For my blues/rock board I'd send my vintage EHX and MXR pedals to Analogman and Howard Davis for full refurbs, get a few Echolexes and Space Echoes and develop a good relationship with a Echoplex maintenance guy, buy a bunch of vintage wahs, fuzzes and tube screamers,use a nice programmable looper like the GigRig or Boss, and have a fully digitally controlled, analog board.

For my experimental and fun board I'd go with a few more boutique OD/Fuzz options than I have today, and full MIDI controlled Strymon and Eventide, maybe Chase Bliss for fun.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

I think the way to go is work for some guitar magazine like Premier Guitar or something as a gear reviewer. You'd get to try all sorts of gear for free and definitely the ultimate satisfaction, and get paid for it too!

 

[mantis]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

I've used a rack, I've used a head with a couple pedals and multi-fx, and I've also used two amps with pedals and an A/B/Y switcher. In short I've been in a similar place a few times, and this time I'm trying pedals with a loopmaster clean/dirty/channel switcher.

It sounds like you're considering a head and switcher, maybe with or without a few pedals. The TC G-System has a good reputation and sounds amazing; (I've demoed one a few times), but it has a few downsides as well. First and foremost, It'll only work with its own controller that uses Cat5 cables instead of midi. This makes finding a replacement cable easier, but you have zero options for a backup controller. It also tends to not be very good at controlling external midi devices (like the channels on that Mesa amp). The G-System is also considered end of life by TC, so there won't be any more updates and it may be difficult to get service if something goes wrong.

If I were building that sort of rig today, I'd use a Voodoo Lab GCX with a Ground Control Pro foot pedal. This setup doesn't include an effects processor or power supply, but it has 8 loops instead of 4, and controlling other midi devices is much easier. The Ground Control Pro is also dead easy to program. For multi-fx, a TC G-Major 2 sounds every bit as good as a G System. This rig costs a little more money, but it'll be easier to use and still under warranty.

The big downside with either of these rigs is that you're in big trouble in the case of a switching failure, and they can be HARD to troubleshoot when they're not working correctly. I used a similar rig from 2007-2009 and went back to pedals because of the complication and being tired of carrying so much gear.

If the G system is at end of life, I'm wondering if TC Electronics is going to come out with a new model? Maybe a more advanced unit which would include tone print like their pedals have. I see that being awesome.
I shy'd away from th G system as I didn't like the size of the screen. I like everything else about it. Yeah compared to all other floor processors with maybe an exception or 2 it lacks as it doesn't have an on board expression or volume control pedal. Easy fix add your own. Also no OD pedals but again the idea with it is to add your favorites in those loops and then control them.

I saw the Voodoo Lab GCX and ground control pro which could be a really solid way to go. Thanks for that.

 

[mantis]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

I'd get a Boss ES-5 or ES-8.

I'd use pedals for for OD, boost, octave and noise gate.

I'd use either midi controllable pedals or a rack multi effect for delay/reverb/chorus

I'd go Strymon Timeline/Mobius and use onboard reverb. I've tried going rack in the past, but I like being able to reach down and tweak things on the fly. I also like being able to easily add/remove things as I get bored/tastes change.

Boss beat the ES-5 and 8 with one huge flaw as I see it, no stereo out control for amps with 3 channels or 2 channels with a boost or reverb or even effects loop on an off. If I was an engineer for Boss, I would make sure I covered common amps around the world as just 2 channel amps which can be controlled by a single mono control cable 1/4 inch isn't norm. Then you have amps Like Mesa Boogie which have an array of different ways to control them up until now with the JP2C which has Midi. I hope Mesa starts using Midi on all their amps then 3rd party control will be easy for all of us.
I love everything else about the ES-8. I has exactly what I would want and if I went with the Boogie JP2C then it's a done deal. The ES-8 has Midi and all is right with the world.

 

[mantis]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

Money no object I'd do the high-end, MIDI controlled version of my stuff today.

For my blues/rock board I'd send my vintage EHX and MXR pedals to Analogman and Howard Davis for full refurbs, get a few Echolexes and Space Echoes and develop a good relationship with a Echoplex maintenance guy, buy a bunch of vintage wahs, fuzzes and tube screamers,use a nice programmable looper like the GigRig or Boss, and have a fully digitally controlled, analog board.

For my experimental and fun board I'd go with a few more boutique OD/Fuzz options than I have today, and full MIDI controlled Strymon and Eventide, maybe Chase Bliss for fun.

I like the way you think!!!

 

[mantis]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

I think the way to go is work for some guitar magazine like Premier Guitar or something as a gear reviewer. You'd get to try all sorts of gear for free and definitely the ultimate satisfaction, and get paid for it too!

If I was younger and was single I would go for such a job.

 

[mwalluk]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

ccheck out the tc nova system which is modelled after g system, just a stripped down version. can get it used under $200.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Which way would you go Money not an object

Boss beat the ES-5 and 8 with one huge flaw as I see it, no stereo out control for amps with 3 channels or 2 channels with a boost or reverb or even effects loop on an off.

The ES-5 has 4 external triggers and the ES-8 has 6 external triggers. They're even TRS, so you can run one cable to an amp that uses a TS or TRS footswitch cable.