Why are Gotoh self-locking tuners unpopular?

Rex_Rocker

Well-known member
I've read people swap these out for traditional Gotoh locking tuners. I honestly don't get why. Or even worse, Sperzels, LOL. (J/K)

Why would you want to lock the tuner yourself when the tuner can do it for you... just easier and better?

I think people are kind of misinformed on how these work. And I think that's Gotoh's fault to an extent because I haven't seen them release anything where they explain how they actually work. But then again, I don't think it's complicated or counter intuitive at all either.

But I've read people feel like they need to further tighten the tuners after they lock. Maybe I'm missing something, but is this necessary? I don't think I've read anything on why it would be, though. Or some people think they actually have to unlock them with a screwdriver when they want to change the strings.

So let's discuss... what do you guys think about these tuners? What are your experiences? I've never had a negative experience with them, but maybe someone has? Something I'm not seeing?
 
Ive never used those. I dont get the Sperzel joke though -Sperzel are some of the finest machined tuners there are.

To me Grovers feel so great for 3/3, and Schaller and Sperzel for 6 inline feel so great -Pings and Gotahs are good too -but I dont really need tech for auto locking -its only saving me seconds. -I can thread and wrap a post so damn fast

But Im certainly not against it, it just isnt compelling
 
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ISperzel are some of the finest machined tuners there are.
It was just a joke, I just don't like them, personally.

But speaking seriously, I don't like them, but I admit that's a bit of a quirk or mine. They are well-made, that is undeniable. And they were absolutely amazing and innovative when they were first introduced, but nowadays, I think there's other options that are equally as well made, that have better gear ratios (objectically speaking), ergonomics (subjectically speaking), and aren't as expensive

Then again, that is just an opinion. There are people that like Klusons over Grovers even though their gear ratio is worse. And I totally get why, I just don't agree.

:D
 
Self-locking tuners (not just Gotoh) are sometimes NOT self-UN-locking....
Yeah. If you break a string. I do get that. But it's not that big of a deal to unlock them in those case if you have to. At least IMO.

Otherwise, with mine, I've never had a problem where loosening the string all the way didn't cause them to self unlock. At least with neither Grovers nor Gotohs.

Have you?
 
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There are people that like Klusons over Grovers even though their gear ratio is worse. And I totally get why, I just don't agree.

:D

Gear Ratio is least important factor in a good Machine Head.

It's just a sales technique to tout it.

People who know about building machine heads, know that machining quality and fitment of the gears is the absolute key to a great tuner -and gear ratio is nothing as long as it's over 10:1
 
Are those the ones that lock the string automatically when you tune up and then have a little button on the back that you press to release it?

I think they're pretty slick, but I don't usually use stuff like that too often because I think of it as a gimmick. Sure they are well made and it makes string changes quicker and with less required thought (for example, how come locking tuners have the screw threaded "backwards" from how most people would intuit it), but at the end of the day I like the utilitarian nature of cheap simple locking tuners.

Also, for guitars that I do allow to have fancy things like that on, I prefer automatic trimming tuners, because the time it saves me from reaching across the table for my wire cutter is more than the time I could save by not having to twist the knob on the back.
 
Are those the ones that lock the string automatically when you tune up and then have a little button on the back that you press to release it?

I think they're pretty slick, but I don't usually use stuff like that too often because I think of it as a gimmick. Sure they are well made and it makes string changes quicker and with less required thought (for example, how come locking tuners have the screw threaded "backwards" from how most people would intuit it), but at the end of the day I like the utilitarian nature of cheap simple locking tuners.

Also, for guitars that I do allow to have fancy things like that on, I prefer automatic trimming tuners, because the time it saves me from reaching across the table for my wire cutter is more than the time I could save by not having to twist the knob on the back.
No, they don't have a button to release them. They unlock automatically as you loosen the string all the way. Unless you break a string. Then you have to take a screwdriver to unlock them, but that's a rare case scenario. At least in my experience.

And yeah, the self-trimming D'Addario tuners are pretty cool as well. If they made them self-locking as well, I think they'd be the ultimate tuners for fast string changes.

Gimmicky? Perhaps. But cool and useful nonetheless. JMO.
 
Both which lock, and have a 40:1 ratio. Thing is, LSRs aren't made anymore, and Steinbergers are really heavy.
The 40:1 ratio is insane. I'd love to give those a try.

But yeah, weight is another factor I personally consider with tuners. Especially with guitars which can sometimes be prone to neck dive like SG's, which I really like and want to own at some point. Exactly another benefit I see to not having the added mass of a thumbweel at the back of the tuner.
 
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Gear Ratio is least important factor in a good Machine Head.

It's just a sales technique to tout it.

People who know about building machine heads, know that machining quality and fitment of the gears is the absolute key to a great tuner -and gear ratio is nothing as long as it's over 10:1
According to? By that logic, are you saying that the uinque gear ratio for each string on the new Graphtech Ratio tuners is just a marketing gimmick?

Because, let's compare apples to apples. I have had Grover-made Kluson style tuners and standard kidney Grover in the same guitar. Both bought recently, so they're not from different eras or anything. Not from a different manufacturer either, and likely not from a different factory or manufacturing process even. The Grover Kluson types were 14:1. The normal Grovers were 18:1. I could definitely feel a difference. Now, the Kluson-type Grovers weren't bad, and they weren't overly unstable either, but the 18:1 felt smoother and tuned more accurately. Subtle, perhaps, but noticeable. And given the option, why choose the worse of the two?

I've also had Gotoh 510's in the past with the 21:1 gear ratio, and those were insanely smooth. But that's a whole other manufacturer, and build quality tolerances.

Now, there were some benefits to the Kluson-style Grovers that I myself did not value enough to keep them. But they were indeed lighter, and they had the vintage look. Sperzels have neither of those admittedly subjective benefits.

Like I said, I'm not denying the quality of Sperzels. I am not even saying they are bad tuners. But they are not the only well-made tuners being offered nowadays. And I find there are better options as other manufacturers have caught up on the whole locking tuner phenomena. I personally don't agree with peoplle who defend them on the basis on how well they are made, but I accept that's just an opinion. Hell, I even understand why some people would like to go with Sperzels because they are a well-established brand with a trust-worthy design. But I do think looking a bit beyond them into what else is being offered nowadays can go a long way. I've been obsessing with tuners ever since I got frustrated with my first few cheapy guitars with attrocious tuning stability, so I've gotten my hands on as many as I could, Sperzels included.

Summing up, my joke's only implication is that I would never change Gotohs for Sperzels for the reasons I explained.
 
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According to? By that logic, are you saying that the uinque gear ratio for each string on the new Graphtech Ratio tuners is just a marketing gimmick?

Because, let's compare apples to apples. I have had Grover-made Kluson style tuners and standard kidney Grover in the same guitar. Both bought recently, so they're not from different eras or anything. Not from a different manufacturer either, and likely not from a different factory or manufacturing process even. The Grover Kluson types were 14:1. The normal Grovers were 18:1. I could definitely feel a difference. Now, the Kluson-type Grovers weren't bad, and they weren't overly unstable either, but the 18:1 felt smoother and tuned more accurately. Subtle, perhaps, but noticeable. And given the option, why choose the worse of the two?

I've also had Gotoh 510's in the past with the 21:1 gear ratio, and those were insanely smooth. But that's a whole other manufacturer, and build quality tolerances.

Now, there were some benefits to the Kluson-style Grovers that I myself did not value enough to keep them. But they were indeed lighter, and they had the vintage look. Sperzels have neither of those admittedly subjective benefits.

Like I said, I'm not denying the quality of Sperzels. I am not even saying they are bad tuners. But they are not the only well-made tuners being offered nowadays. And I find there are better options as other manufacturers have caught up on the whole locking tuner phenomena. I personally don't agree with peoplle who defend them on the basis on how well they are made, but I accept that's just an opinion. Hell, I even understand why some people would like to go with Sperzels because they are a well-established brand with a trust-worthy design. But I do think looking a bit beyond them into what else is being offered nowadays can go a long way. I've been obsessing with tuners ever since I got frustrated with my first few cheapy guitars with attrocious tuning stability, so I've gotten my hands on as many as I could, Sperzels included.

Summing up, my joke's only implication is that I would never change Gotohs for Sperzels for the reasons I explained.

Ill explain it like this.... the best human ear can discern a pitch variation know as "JND". of about 5 cents, a trained musician of average hearing is something of 5-10 cents, and the average ear on the street more then 20 cents, -so lets call that the "resolution" of a gearing system in that how fine the incremental resolution defines how accurately you can place a tuning.of a guitar -but if you consider a gearing ratio of 12:1 can place a string within about 2 cents a resolution -which is more accurate than most guitarist electronic tuners had resolution of until the last 2 decades and way more accurate than a human can hear. a machine head of regular modern gear ratio -like 12:1 or 14:1 has plenty of resolution to serve a guitar players purpose -and by a large margin for human hearing

Second your guitar with equal temperament was wildly more variable in pitch regardless of how accurate your machine heads are. Equal temperament basically says your guitar is going to be out of tune as much as 14 cents in places around the fretboard, and maybe more based on the actual guitar -likely 20 cents. =so what has the extra resolution on a tuner gained you if you guitar fundamentally is not set up accurately enough to control that resolution, nor has your ear the ability to discern the advantage if you had more ratio. fundamentally the design of guitar is flawed well beyond what the lesser resolution of a machine head is.

Next the guitar itself is going to vary 1-10 cents when it vibrates because of the the bridge play, vibration of the entire body, stiffness of the neck, binding and slippage of the nut, variation of crown on the fret wear, and especially the fact that plucking a string by nature will make it sharper by multiple cents in the attack and flatten as it's orbit resolves to a static state -Fundamentally playing a guitar is way more out of tune than the resolution achieved from a high ratio tuner.

Next, what is of most concern is machine quality in a tuner -the fitment of the gearing dictates how accurate the ratio is -a 12:1 machine head which is machine to a certain accuracy can actually bring a pitch to it's finest accuracy and hold it in place versus a cheaper higher ratio machine with slack in their machining process. This is why Sperzel has never changed their ratio -because their machining is so accurate that it achieves the control and hold suitable for guitar players. Next, the slack or play in any gear system creates the phenomena of slippage -it's all about machine quality to prevent this -so choosing a machine on quality or a technology that mitigates this like avoiding the traditional offset gearing in the first place.

Next, actual gear ratio is just the ratio of how many turns the the button head must make for 1 turn of the post -but this isn't an apples to apples comparison between machine heads manufacturers "resolution" unless the post size is standard and the string size is the same -which many modern systems have different post sizes -so a 14:1 on system could achieve the same resolution of a 16:1 of another -and it gets even more confusing to compare tuners when you compare to some of the new systems which don't use a traditional post winding system and post super high ratio. So just quoting ratio between mfgs may be misleaded

So there's nothing wrong with wanting more resolution on your tuner -especially with tuners now that can do <1 cent resolutions -especially if you are using true temperament guitars -if fact thats the place where higher ratios may make more sense. and there's nothing wrong with wanted a smoother feel on your tuner because you are ok with tuner your tuners way more -but anyone whos used a Grover Rotomatic 18:1 knows its hard to find any tuner that feels better than that. So in summary, high ratio tuners were marketed like an arms race in the early 2000s and it got pretty silly, as the higher ratio doesnt really provide a tuning accuracy advantage for a human ear and terribly flawed equal temperament guitar.... where they are cool is if they feel good to you and you are ok with more turns and possibly chasing a pitch on a tuner swinging back an forth a cents as the string resolves. But for a feeling argument, I'd argue that especially Grover, but also Schaller have incredible feeling tuners in lower ratios than the high ratios offerings -so it's not a compelling reason for most people.

So your own ear, your playing, you guitar's western equal temperament setup (presumed maybe you do true temperament), and you audience cannot benefit from the higher resolution of a high ratio but it can totally benefit from high machine quality to hold the pitch from slippage -so it's really a matter of how the tuner feels to you, does it give you confidence, does it feel smooth -which is a personal choice but dont worry about gear ratio on it's own as factor for tuning quality.
 
I find the most annoying technical features of any type of tuners are:

1. the backlash or slack you get when you switch from turning them one way to turning them the other way;
2. wobbly posts that just don't inspire confidence;
3. Tuning buttons that are too small for my pudgy fingers and too close to the headstock.

Some slack in the gearing is an engineering necessity. The gears would jam without it. Using "backlash eliminators" like those found on lathes etc. really isn't practical on a guitar headstock either. BUT if you use well made, close tolerance tuners, the backlash can, and should be, reduced to the minimum. Using cheaply made tuners on budget guitars is one obvious way of saving money. I've found spending slightly more on my locking tuners worthwhile, therefore.

My Teles all have Fender split shaft tuners, my Strats are going to get the same too soon.

On my Gibson and Epis I have locking tuners. I don't really know why, but I like them. They don't do anything for tuning stability, really, but I like them nonetheless.

I still put at least two wraps of string around the posts on the wound strings, four or so on the plain strings. This does four things:

1. It reduces string tension at the pinch ponts where the locking tuners "bite" onto the strings, that should reduce the chances of a string breaking;
2. IMHO it does further improve tuning stability;
3. It enables you to drop tune and then tune back up without additional messing about;
4. You can slacken the strings enough to get a pickup/ pickguard / tailpiece off without removing the strings.
 
NegativeEase,

I agree with all of what you said, especially that the quality of the machining of the gears is the most critical feature of tuners, even more so than the ratio (whether 10:1 or 20:1).

Most people don't have perfect pitch and couldn't tell whether a single string was 10-20 cents sharp or flat (from 440 A tuning). But most people do have decent relative pitch and if one string was 10-20 cents sharp and the next string was 10-20 cents flat that difference of 20-40 cents would be miserable to listen to.

Because of the problem with guitars that you accurately point out (equal temperament) I personally feel that you should especially be as accurate as possible in every other area that you can be. That's why I use good quality well-machined 18:1 tuners and use compensated nuts with perfectly filed string slots on all of my guitars.

It may not be super critical or even necessary to be that accurate, but it doesn't hurt either.
 
I find the most annoying technical features of any type of tuners are:

1. the backlash or slack you get when you switch from turning them one way to turning them the other way;
2. wobbly posts that just don't inspire confidence;
3. Tuning buttons that are too small for my pudgy fingers and too close to the headstock.

Some slack in the gearing is an engineering necessity. The gears would jam without it. Using "backlash eliminators" like those found on lathes etc. really isn't practical on a guitar headstock either. BUT if you use well made, close tolerance tuners, the backlash can, and should be, reduced to the minimum. Using cheaply made tuners on budget guitars is one obvious way of saving money. I've found spending slightly more on my locking tuners worthwhile, therefore.

My Teles all have Fender split shaft tuners, my Strats are going to get the same too soon.

On my Gibson and Epis I have locking tuners. I don't really know why, but I like them. They don't do anything for tuning stability, really, but I like them nonetheless.

I still put at least two wraps of string around the posts on the wound strings, four or so on the plain strings. This does four things:

1. It reduces string tension at the pinch ponts where the locking tuners "bite" onto the strings, that should reduce the chances of a string breaking;
2. IMHO it does further improve tuning stability;
3. It enables you to drop tune and then tune back up without additional messing about;
4. You can slacken the strings enough to get a pickup/ pickguard / tailpiece off without removing the strings.

Excellent points, I agree. I do the same things (for the same reasons as you mentioned) with my tuners.
I haven't used any tuners that don't have some of the backlash that you mention, so as a general rule...always tune UP to pitch.
 
Yeah. If you break a string. I do get that. But it's not that big of a deal to unlock them in those case if you have to. At least IMO.

Otherwise, with mine, I've never had a problem where loosening the string all the way didn't cause them to self unlock. At least with neither Grovers nor Gotohs.

Have you?


Yes, I have run across Gotoh self-lockers and a set of something PRS uses (without the black knob on the top of the post) that would NOT self-unlock even if I loosened the string all the way and cut it off a few inches long to pull on it. Twice I've had to remove the tuner from the guitar to be able to get the string out of the post. It was extremely maddening.
 
You won't find any gear systems anywhere that don't have clearances between the gear teeth. Some clearance is always necessary, otherwise the gears will jam. That applies from a Swiss watch to a 10,000 tonne crane. Machine tools use complex devices called backlash eliminators, but even so, during my machine shop training, at the UK's military helicopter manufacturing company, we were taught to work from one end of the workpiece to the other.

The amount of backlash can be minimized by tight manufacturing tolerance and the accompanying QC. My maternal grandfather had a job right after he got demobbed from the Royal Navy at the end of WW2 (CPO First Class, Chief Engineer in a submarine) assembling the transmissions for Bristol cars. He had to hand finish all the gears, assemble and shim the transmissions and make sure they worked smoothly. His quota was one transmission a week. If one took six days he got overtime pay for the Saturday. If he finished in four days he had to start over.

The point here is that some Chinese factory knocking out tuners for 10 cents a unit won't have the tolerances and QC that, say, a Japanese factory making them for, say, a dollar a unit will. Therefore cheap Chinese tuners, aftermarket or fitted to a budget guitar, won't be as good as spending $20 or $30 a set more on better ones.

I've used Graphtech Ratios, Klusons and Gotohs. I think Klusons are probably my favorite, best balance between price and quality. The Graphtechs are superb, but they're bloody expensive.
 
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^ ...so I never use the self-locking ones anymore. Why take a chance? Even if they're much better now than when I first tried them. There are so many different great quality locking tuners to choose from these days.
 
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