Why are Gotoh self-locking tuners unpopular?

[Mincer]

The entire tuning/stringing system of a guitar is archaic, but like many things guitar-related, it is tied up in tradition. Any system that doesn't 'look right' is bound to fail on the market, no matter how much better it works.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

NegativeEase I understand your point about the lower gear ratios being good enough for a guitar's flawed tuning system. I have to agree in that sense. However, in that case, I think GuitarDoc makes a point as well.

NegativeEase
Because of the problem with guitars that you accurately point out (equal temperament) I personally feel that you should especially be as accurate as possible in every other area that you can be. That's why I use good quality well-machined 18:1 tuners and use compensated nuts with perfectly filed string slots on all of my guitars.

It may not be super critical or even necessary to be that accurate, but it doesn't hurt either.

Oh, and modern guitar pedal tuners easily get more accurate than 2 cents. The days of the TU-2 are long gone, LOL. But that's a whole other topic, so let's not go there.

But I was mostly referring to how Sperzels vs Gotohs feel as you tune up, and I think you do acknoledge there is a feel difference between Sperzels and something with higher gear ratios like Grovers.

so it's really a matter of how the tuner feels to you, does it give you confidence, does it feel smooth -which is a personal choice but dont worry about gear ratio on it's own as factor for tuning quality.

Which is exactly my point. Like I said, I never had a problem with Sperzels being unstable. I never said Sperzels are low quality because of their gear ratio. I never actually disputed the quality of Sperzels. They just feel different (and not in a good way) compared to an equally high-quality tuner like Gotoh or Schaller with a higher gear ratio.

Now, this topic has made me go some more research on Sperzels, and I thank you for that. I just realized that Sperzels' housings are actually made of aluminum rather than zinc like most other tuners. I do wish either Sperzel offered a slightly higher gear ratio or other companies did lightweight tuners out of aluminum as well. I think I read Gotohs do have the option of an aluminum button, though.

Aaaaaaaand, I don't mind either Grover or Schaller, but I don't particularly love them either. Grovers are alright, because they can usually be had for reasonable prices, and they're stable for the most part. But I have also found their non-locking ones tend to be somewhat inconsistent. Many of them have posts that wiggle a lot, and I've had sets that work flawlessly, while others have been so so. Schallers are soooooo heavy for some reason, and out of the two sets I've had (and the rest of the Schaller hardware I've had, TBH, including a couple of tune o matics and tailpieces), the finish tended to flake off relatively easily. Maybe I got a bad batch, and they did function flawlessly, so I'll give them the benefit of doubt.

Another thing that I like about Gotohs is that their locking tuners can work with higher gauge strings from the factory. I think the maximum for Grover, Schaller, and Sperzel is 56, isn't it? I use a 56, but I have wanted to tune my guitars lower at times, but I'd hate to be limited by what my tuners can take.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Yes, I have run across Gotoh self-lockers and a set of something PRS uses (without the black knob on the top of the post) that would NOT self-unlock even if I loosened the string all the way and cut it off a few inches long to pull on it. Twice I've had to remove the tuner from the guitar to be able to get the string out of the post. It was extremely maddening.

Really? I'd be pissed as well. I've never had the problem on mine, TBH. Neither Grover nor Gotoh.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

On my Gibson and Epis I have locking tuners. I don't really know why, but I like them. They don't do anything for tuning stability, really, but I like them nonetheless.

I still put at least two wraps of string around the posts on the wound strings, four or so on the plain strings. This does four things:

1. It reduces string tension at the pinch ponts where the locking tuners "bite" onto the strings, that should reduce the chances of a string breaking;
2. IMHO it does further improve tuning stability;
3. It enables you to drop tune and then tune back up without additional messing about;
4. You can slacken the strings enough to get a pickup/ pickguard / tailpiece off without removing the strings.

I understand why you leave some wraps in there, but I don't tihnk I agree with that posture. Because at that point, if you're wrapping the strings around your locking tuners, why do you even want locking tuners at all? Better save some money and get non-locking tuners. Like you said, locking tuners don't really do much for tuning stability. What they do is make string changes easier and quicker because you don't have to wrap around the post.

There was also a time where I was swapping out pickups constantly, back when I had EMG's which are so simple to swap out. So it wasn't uncommon for me to slacken the strings all the way, and then retighten them. With locking tuners without any winds in them, there was also greater a chance I'd break the string at the tuner because without wraps, the break angle was greater at the tuner. So I understand you there. What I did is I just avoided locking tuners altogether for a while. Because why pay for a feature that's not letting me do what I want with my guitar?

I still swap pickups out A LOT, but I do it less frequently, so I'm back with locking tuners.

JMO.

 

[Seashore]

Even with some extra wraps, I have three sets of locking tuners (Grover and Gotoh) that break my high strings pretty consistently when I slack them. (edit - not self-lockers) I burn through a lot of .009s and .010s that way. Never had that problem with the various old non-locking Grovers and other no-name tuners on my other guitars, and it hasn't been an issue with the cheap-feeling Schecter-branded locking tuners on my E1. I'm annoyed enough about it that I'm considering going back to non-locking tuners across the board, as I can afford it. I don't mind taking the extra couple minutes. Tuners have never been the culprit with my tuning stability problems; it usually comes down to the nut, or sometimes it's a neck settling in. Temperature swings in my music room do me no favors.

 

[beaubrummels]

I have Gotoh self-lockers on one guitar. For a while, I didn't understand how to use them. It took a few re-reads of the paperwork, and one day I got it. Rotating them in the direction of tuning up and at the onset of tension will automatically engage the lock. It takes a number of more turns rotating them in a loosening direction without tension for it to unlock. I believe the reason is you don't want it to unlock if you are just detuning by a step or so. And you don't want turns all the way around the post if you can avoid it. Just let the lock do it's job. When everything was locked correctly, I was able to do VH dive bombs and return to zero with a normal Wilkinson strat bridge and the locking tuners. I'm kind of sold on them, but haven't invested in replacing tuners across all my guitars yet. I'll just keep my eye on the guitars that might need lockers.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Yeah, leaving wraps around them definitely messes with how they're supposed to function.

I've also heard some people further tighten them with a screwdriver after they've locked. I can't see that causing anything but malfunction.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

What they do is make string changes easier and quicker because you don't have to wrap around the post.

JMO.

You answered your own question.:beerchug:

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

To add, try setting up locking tuners without an extra wrap or two, doing a drop d tune first, then going back to standard. You'll probably break a string or two.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

You answered your own question.:beerchug:

I guess was just pointing out that if someone is using locking tuners and wrapping the strings around the tuner, then, in my opinion, there is no point in having locking tuners at all because you're not getting any benefit from them. You're just paying extra.

To add, try setting up locking tuners without an extra wrap or two, doing a drop d tune first, then going back to standard. You'll probably break a string or two.

I've never had it be that bad. But I don't doubt that would be the case if you're changing between Standard and Drop tuning constantly. I don't, TBH.

 

[NegativeEase]

NegativeEase I understand your point about the lower gear ratios being good enough for a guitar's flawed tuning system. I have to agree in that sense. However, in that case, I think GuitarDoc makes a point as well.


Oh, and modern guitar pedal tuners easily get more accurate than 2 cents. The days of the TU-2 are long gone, LOL. But that's a whole other topic, so let's not go there.

But I was mostly referring to how Sperzels vs Gotohs feel as you tune up, and I think you do acknoledge there is a feel difference between Sperzels and something with higher gear ratios like Grovers.

Which is exactly my point. Like I said, I never had a problem with Sperzels being unstable. I never said Sperzels are low quality because of their gear ratio. I never actually disputed the quality of Sperzels. They just feel different (and not in a good way) compared to an equally high-quality tuner like Gotoh or Schaller with a higher gear ratio.

Now, this topic has made me go some more research on Sperzels, and I thank you for that. I just realized that Sperzels' housings are actually made of aluminum rather than zinc like most other tuners. I do wish either Sperzel offered a slightly higher gear ratio or other companies did lightweight tuners out of aluminum as well. I think I read Gotohs do have the option of an aluminum button, though.

Aaaaaaaand, I don't mind either Grover or Schaller, but I don't particularly love them either. Grovers are alright, because they can usually be had for reasonable prices, and they're stable for the most part. But I have also found their non-locking ones tend to be somewhat inconsistent. Many of them have posts that wiggle a lot, and I've had sets that work flawlessly, while others have been so so. Schallers are soooooo heavy for some reason, and out of the two sets I've had (and the rest of the Schaller hardware I've had, TBH, including a couple of tune o matics and tailpieces), the finish tended to flake off relatively easily. Maybe I got a bad batch, and they did function flawlessly, so I'll give them the benefit of doubt.

Another thing that I like about Gotohs is that their locking tuners can work with higher gauge strings from the factory. I think the maximum for Grover, Schaller, and Sperzel is 56, isn't it? I use a 56, but I have wanted to tune my guitars lower at times, but I'd hate to be limited by what my tuners can take.

Yeah -that was my original point, don't get hung up on high ratio marketing hyperbole -pick high quality Machine head that feels good.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Even with some extra wraps, I have three sets of locking tuners (Grover and Gotoh) that break my high strings pretty consistently when I slack them. (edit - not self-lockers) I burn through a lot of .009s and .010s that way. Never had that problem with the various old non-locking Grovers and other no-name tuners on my other guitars, and it hasn't been an issue with the cheap-feeling Schecter-branded locking tuners on my E1. I'm annoyed enough about it that I'm considering going back to non-locking tuners across the board, as I can afford it. I don't mind taking the extra couple minutes. Tuners have never been the culprit with my tuning stability problems; it usually comes down to the nut, or sometimes it's a neck settling in. Temperature swings in my music room do me no favors.

Sounds like you need to check for some burs.

 

[Seashore]

Sounds like you need to check for some burs.

They break at the edge of the hole where the string exits the tuner post. Just the high strings. It happens regularly with 3 different sets of locking tuners of two different brands. Do you think I should try knocking down the edge of the hole with a small round diamond file or some paper?

 

[jeremy]

i pick hard as hell and play 11s in std tuning. i only break stings at the bridge. i do get the theory of a wind around the tuner might be good to reduce stress at the break of the string coming out of the tuner but its never been an issue for me

 

[Rex_Rocker]

It's never been an issue to me either, and I pick hard too. But that's under normal conditions. And I normally break the strings at the bridge too, but I just got a roller bridge, so I'm hoping that will help.

But I did have the issue that slacking the string and retightening it (like considerably, I mean, all the way, not just tuning up and down slightly) with locking tuners did lend itself to more string breakage than non-locking tuners. Like I said, that only really happens to me is because I'm obsessed with swapping pickups, LOL.

But I've never wrapped strings around my locking tuners. Like I said, I see no point. If I want to do that, I'd get non-locking tuners instead. Nothing wrong with that, but I think wrapping strings around a locking tuner is kind of a waste.

 

[Seashore]

Yeah no. I'm not talking about breaking strings while playing. I'm talking about breakage while slacking the strings for pickup swaps, or setup stuff like intonation and truss rod adjustments, or even sometimes just in the course of tuning.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

For me, it's never been as bad as just tuning up, but yeah, for pickup swaps, totally.

 

[GuitarDoc]

They break at the edge of the hole where the string exits the tuner post. Just the high strings. It happens regularly with 3 different sets of locking tuners of two different brands. Do you think I should try knocking down the edge of the hole with a small round diamond file or some paper?

Absolutely