Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

[robrob2]

I'm curious as to why single coil two conductor pickup wires aren't twisted like unshielded twisted pair (UTP) to reduce noise? Is it because the pickup and control cavities are shielded and twisting isn't needed? I guess if that were true humbuckers wouldn't have grounded shield coax cables. Twisting pickup leads seems like an easy way to reduce noise.

 

[Rodney Gene]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

I'm curious as to why two conductor pickup wires aren't twisted like unshielded twisted pair (UPT) to reduce noise? Is it because the pickup and control cavities are shielded and twisting isn't needed? It seems like it'd be an easy way to reduce noise.

Hey Rob, what do you mean by twisted? 2 wire (single) conductor pickup wire as in Strat Style or Hum Style?

 

[Grenade]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

Good question. understand what you're getting at. The communiction bus lines in automobiles are a twisted pair to eliminate inerference from other signals on oter wiring, but I don't think it will eliminate 60cycle hum.

 

[robrob2]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

Hey Rob, what do you mean by twisted? 2 wire (single) conductor pickup wire as in Strat Style or Hum Style?

Sorry, I meant to say pickups with two wires. It seems they would benefit from twisting. The single coil pickup wires in my HSS Tele were not twisted. I realize shielded coax used on most humbuckers are protected from noise by the metal sheath surrounding the wires and wouldn't benefit from twisting.

The communiction bus lines in automobiles are a twisted pair to eliminate inerference from other signals on oter wiring, but I don't think it will eliminate 60cycle hum.

Most metal telephone wire and computer network cables use twisted pairs to reduce noise. Twisted pair wire reduces all forms of electromagnetic noise, not just adjacent wire crosstalk.

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

I think it´s probably not done for practical and cost reasons. It doesn´t take the end user very long to twist them if so desired, not everybody wants it that way, and there are some (albeit rare) situations where the pair would actually have to be untwisted to accomplish the desired wiring or be routed through existing holes, leaving the user with pre bent wires that can themselves be problematic to thread through some channels.

In other words it would be a labor cost for SD (or any other manufacturer for that matter) for something that wouldn`t be universally beneficial and can be done in a few seconds by those that do desire it.

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

Because twisting the wires to reduce RFI doesn't do anything to lessen the hum from the coil. Lace twists their leads buts that's because their coil is designed to reject hum. Twisting the leads is fine as long as it is done within a larger effort to shield and ground the guitars electronics. Otherwise by itself the effects are negligible.

 

[robrob2]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

Because twisting the wires to reduce RFI doesn't do anything to lessen the hum from the coil.

I think I understand what you're saying here. Since a single coil pickup is a pretty good antenna (most AM radios have built in coil antennas) it's going to pick up noise, so why bother twisting the two pickup leads. Whereas a humbucker will be a very quiet pickup so it's worth the cost and effort to shield its leads.

AM radio coil antenna:


I'm going to open up my Tele to install a new neck pickup and while in there I'm going to twist the mid and new neck's pickup leads, that is if the twisted wires will fit through the wire tunnel.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

It does help a little. I do it when I remember to. If as a company you sent out vintage pickups with twisted leads you'd probably get more guff from those who want to wire a strat pickguard in a straight line like Leo did. The wires would also have memory. (Like hair just out of a braid) Twisting is really more of a "tips and tricks" thing for the end user to consider.

 

[idsnowdog]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

I think I understand what you're saying here. Since a single coil pickup is a pretty good antenna (most AM radios have built in coil antennas) it's going to pick up noise, so why bother twisting the two pickup leads.

That's basically it. You have a big noise maker and a little noise maker. If you silence the little noise maker first you don't gain much.

Here's how I rank the sources of RFI and their solutions:
1) Pickup coils - Wrap the coil with a cloth shield and then wrap the coil with a grounded foil shield.
2) Bridge & strings - Make sure that the bridge is well grounded.
3) The body - Shield the body cavities with shielding paint and ground.
4) The pickguard - Shield the pickguard with foil and ground.
5) Internal wiring - Twist internal wiring to attenuate RFI.
6) **Dummy coils** - Dummy coils can be used for hum reduction, but since they operate on the principle of phase cancellation they do effect tone.

Lastly be aware that if you perform all of these steps the sound of your guitar will change. Some people complain that after shielding/grounding their pickups don't sound "hot" anymore. What they are really saying is the high end hiss from RFI has been bled to ground, so their tone has changed. However the reality is you can play with much higher volume and distortion levels without turning to mush.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

I'm curious as to why single coil two conductor pickup wires aren't twisted like unshielded twisted pair (UTP) to reduce noise? Is it because the pickup and control cavities are shielded and twisting isn't needed? I guess if that were true humbuckers wouldn't have grounded shield coax cables. Twisting pickup leads seems like an easy way to reduce noise.

Leo was lazy and wanted to make cheap guitars.

Seriously if you have a single coil in the first place it really doesn't matter whether the wire to it is plain, twisted or shielded, since the pickup coil way outhums it.

 

[G0lden]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

Twisting wires gets rid of RFI. We can't hear RFI. We don't amplify those frequencies. So it doesn't matter. They are very easy to filter out at the amp.

Most computer components use twisted pairs because they use Line Voltage Differential. These lines require that 0 volts be read as a 0 and 5 volts be read as a 1. By twisting them and using a voltage differential, you prevent voltage spikes from interfering with your signal.

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

Guitar pickups just cannot exploit the benefits of twisted pair.

 

[robrob2]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

Twisting wires gets rid of RFI. We can't hear RFI. We don't amplify those frequencies.

Alexander Graham Bell invented twisted pair wiring to keep telephone lines quiet. 60Hz hum is RFI (Radio Frequency Interference). Fluorescent bulbs and their ballast create RFI. Computers spew RFI and ask any guitar player about guitars and computers. RFI refers to electromagnetic noise at any frequency which definitely can be reduced using twisted pair wire. The shielded wire on humbuckers is there to reduce RFI.

This is the answer to the original question:

Seriously if you have a single coil in the first place it really doesn't matter whether the wire to it is plain, twisted or shielded, since the pickup coil way outhums it.

 

[robrob2]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

I installed a DiMarzio Area T stacked humbucker in my Tele a couple of days ago and was surprised to find shielded coax wire wasn't used. The Area T came with the two standard series output wires pre-soldered but they were were only 2 inches long. The other 3 wires, hot, ground and baseplate ground were indeed twisted for the long run to the controls. I had to extend the short wires with a single conductor wire to the 5-way switch to set up auto-split in the neck + mid position (I had the magnetic polarity of the Area T reversed from South to North so I'd get hum canceling in the neck + mid position).

While I had the Tele apart I installed a 500k push-pull tone pot with a .022uF Orange Drop capacitor. I used the push-pull for the neck on mod so I can pair neck pickup with the bridge or run all 3 pickups simultaneously. I also twisted the single coil mid pickup's wires to possibly reduce its noise.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

I installed a DiMarzio Area T stacked humbucker in my Tele a couple of days ago and was surprised to find shielded coax wire wasn't used. The Area T came with the two standard series output wires pre-soldered but they were were only 2 inches long. The other 3 wires, hot, ground and baseplate ground were indeed twisted for the long run to the controls. I had to extend the short wires with a single conductor wire to the 5-way switch to set up auto-split in the neck + mid position (I had the magnetic polarity of the Area T reversed from South to North so I'd get hum canceling in the neck + mid position).

While I had the Tele apart I installed a 500k push-pull tone pot with a .022uF Orange Drop capacitor. I used the push-pull for the neck on mod so I can pair neck pickup with the bridge or run all 3 pickups simultaneously. I also twisted the single coil mid pickup's wires to possibly reduce its noise.

A number of manufacturers uses unshielded cables even on humbucking pickups. All kinds of DiMarzio stacks are an example, as well as most (all?) Bill Lawrence products.

So how effective is twisted versus non-twisted?

 

[robrob2]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

So how effective is twisted versus non-twisted?

Who knows? There's very little noise from the guitar even with the very high output Quarter Pound mid and Invader bridge. The control and pickup cavities are finished in conductive paint and the pick guard is sealed with foil so it's always been pretty quiet.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

Who knows? There's very little noise from the guitar even with the very high output Quarter Pound mid and Invader bridge. The control and pickup cavities are finished in conductive paint and the pick guard is sealed with foil so it's always been pretty quiet.

Well, if you have complete shielding then obviously a shielded wire is not needed.

Also, whether the pickup connected is a single coil or not doesn't change the amount of noise that the wire picks up.

 

[G0lden]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

Alexander Graham Bell invented twisted pair wiring to keep telephone lines quiet. 60Hz hum is RFI (Radio Frequency Interference). Fluorescent bulbs and their ballast create RFI. Computers spew RFI and ask any guitar player about guitars and computers. RFI refers to electromagnetic noise at any frequency which definitely can be reduced using twisted pair wire. The shielded wire on humbuckers is there to reduce RFI.

If twisting the 2 wires together got rid of the 60 Hz hum, I highly doubt the humbucker pickup would have been invented.

 

[robrob2]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

If twisting the 2 wires together got rid of the 60 Hz hum, I highly doubt the humbucker pickup would have been invented.

Twisting the two lead wires will prevent the lead wires from picking up noise and hum. It doesn't affect the noise and hum picked up by the coil(s).

 

[dotsdad]

Re: Why Aren't 2 Conductor Pickup Wires Twisted?

Twisted pair works when both wires carry the same signal. The noise picked up along the journey is cancelled (due to being out of phase with each other) when the signal from the two wires is summed back together.

The black wire on signle coil is your ground and white is hot. In other words, they are not carrying an identical signal. Thus twisted wire is pointless.

If you really wanted, a twisted pair - both connected to hot - might cancel some noise. But, like the guys before said, a pickup is 1/4 mile of antenna...what's 4-5 more inches?