allbutromeo
Well-known member
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
Bludave
New member
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
The guitar is an imperfect instrument. The string thickness, the fret weight, the height of the action & the Relief in the neck all have some affect on how well or bad it will play all over the neck. So the concept of intonation is to make it "less" out of tune in all areas of the neck. For example: IF you tune the guitar perfectly to an open E chord, then play a double bar chord the 7th fret and check it with a tuner, you may find that a few of the strings are slightly sharp or flat, but most people can't hear it so for the most part its good.... there are those rare individuals who can her these minuscule differences and thats where the concept of fan fret guitars come from. The logic of a fan fret instrument is everywhere on the neck the guitar is in perfect tune..... I just wonder on how that will affect going to a lighter or heavier string gauge
??
The guitar is an imperfect instrument. The string thickness, the fret weight, the height of the action & the Relief in the neck all have some affect on how well or bad it will play all over the neck. So the concept of intonation is to make it "less" out of tune in all areas of the neck. For example: IF you tune the guitar perfectly to an open E chord, then play a double bar chord the 7th fret and check it with a tuner, you may find that a few of the strings are slightly sharp or flat, but most people can't hear it so for the most part its good.... there are those rare individuals who can her these minuscule differences and thats where the concept of fan fret guitars come from. The logic of a fan fret instrument is everywhere on the neck the guitar is in perfect tune..... I just wonder on how that will affect going to a lighter or heavier string gauge
??
P
Plessure
Guest
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
Wouldn't a multiscale be subject to the same imperfections? They have movable stables like single-scale guitars.
Wouldn't a multiscale be subject to the same imperfections? They have movable stables like single-scale guitars.
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
But it is as simple as that.
The reason the adjustments are slightly different from one guitar to the next is that we use different string gauges (which often have different core-sizes from brand to brand and model to model even with the same gauge size), and we also have different action settings which require more or less stretching for the string to then reach the fret.
Some of you guys are really over-thinking this.
Saddle-adjustment compensates for the amount of stretch required for the exact string to be fretted. (gauge, core/wrap-ratio, and distance/action being the main factors)
Think about it;
We can line-up all the saddles exactly evenly and still get perfect-pitch open notes on all the strings at the same time.
Why? Because there is no stretching involved when playing open notes. (well there is a tiny amount from the vibration-loop itself)
Now saddle adjustments can't get all the notes to end up perfect because we have to settle-on one spot to test for the required "stretch-compensation", and we often pick the 12th fret since the result of doing so sort-of splits the difference, which is about the best we can do since there's less stretch when playing near the nut and more stretch when playing up high.
But it is as simple as that.
The reason the adjustments are slightly different from one guitar to the next is that we use different string gauges (which often have different core-sizes from brand to brand and model to model even with the same gauge size), and we also have different action settings which require more or less stretching for the string to then reach the fret.
Some of you guys are really over-thinking this.
Saddle-adjustment compensates for the amount of stretch required for the exact string to be fretted. (gauge, core/wrap-ratio, and distance/action being the main factors)
Think about it;
We can line-up all the saddles exactly evenly and still get perfect-pitch open notes on all the strings at the same time.
Why? Because there is no stretching involved when playing open notes. (well there is a tiny amount from the vibration-loop itself)
Now saddle adjustments can't get all the notes to end up perfect because we have to settle-on one spot to test for the required "stretch-compensation", and we often pick the 12th fret since the result of doing so sort-of splits the difference, which is about the best we can do since there's less stretch when playing near the nut and more stretch when playing up high.
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Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
I guess AutoTune has put their technology into a guitar. I haven't tried one, but my guess is that it is the best way to solve the guitar's inherent out-of-tune-ness. It would probably work better than bent frets, compensated nuts or weird calculations for fret placement.
I guess AutoTune has put their technology into a guitar. I haven't tried one, but my guess is that it is the best way to solve the guitar's inherent out-of-tune-ness. It would probably work better than bent frets, compensated nuts or weird calculations for fret placement.
Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
I heard something the other week about if all notes were perfectly in tune it would mess with your ears creating the illusion that it was out of tune. I think this has more go do with equal vs just tempered tuning, but i'd be interested to hear if anyone knows more about it.
If you wanna talk about guitars naturally being out of tune, look at the saxophone, there are three different ways to play the same note and two of them are wildy out of tune. I forget what note it is, but again I find it interesting.
I heard something the other week about if all notes were perfectly in tune it would mess with your ears creating the illusion that it was out of tune. I think this has more go do with equal vs just tempered tuning, but i'd be interested to hear if anyone knows more about it.
If you wanna talk about guitars naturally being out of tune, look at the saxophone, there are three different ways to play the same note and two of them are wildy out of tune. I forget what note it is, but again I find it interesting.
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
In other words, by default, a guitar can never be perfectly in tune and the tuning systems we use are comprimises.
Equal temperament is most common, but other systems (Just Intonation is a good example), can provide much better tuning within a key, but you would need to retune whenever you change keys.
Our frettless buddies do not have the same problem because they shift intonation on the fly, playing a specific note slightly sharper in one key than in others.
Here's an article that digs in a bit.
http://www.soundfromtheheart.com
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
I think you maybe aluding to the meaning of 'intonation' from a theory perspective... Because overtones are not perfect ratios, western music has adjusted the tuning of fudamentals so that ratios between notes stay the same when we shift keys.
In other words, by default, a guitar can never be perfectly in tune and the tuning systems we use are comprimises.
Equal temperament is most common, but other systems (Just Intonation is a good example), can provide much better tuning within a key, but you would need to retune whenever you change keys.
Our frettless buddies do not have the same problem because they shift intonation on the fly, playing a specific note slightly sharper in one key than in others.
Here's an article that digs in a bit.
http://www.soundfromtheheart.com
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
Chistopher
malapterurus electricus tonewood instigator
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
Again a bit of a tangent, but do you know of any major examples of songs featuring Just intonation? I've heard it in isolation, but I've always wondered if different intonations would be able to be heard in a mix.
Again a bit of a tangent, but do you know of any major examples of songs featuring Just intonation? I've heard it in isolation, but I've always wondered if different intonations would be able to be heard in a mix.
Clint 55
OH THE DOUBLE THICK GLAZE!
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
Wow I wasn't expecting to be able to hear that much of a difference between temperaments.
Wow I wasn't expecting to be able to hear that much of a difference between temperaments.
Jacew
New member
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
Kyle Gann makes music in just intonation. Only one I know about. You can find some of his songs with google.
Sounds bloody awful if I'm completely honest... But I'd be interested to hear some other kind of music with it.
Kyle Gann makes music in just intonation. Only one I know about. You can find some of his songs with google.
Sounds bloody awful if I'm completely honest... But I'd be interested to hear some other kind of music with it.
Myaccount876
Amira-Maker
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
It’s because harmonic overtones aren’t always in tune. For example, if you were to simultaneously play a B1 tuned to the exact fundamental frequency and a B5 tunes it its exact fundamental frequency on an acoustic piano, the two notes would sound horribly out of tune. Same thing with guitars/basses. Notes on the lower extreme and notes on the higher extreme produce harmonic overtones at the transient that are completely out of tune to each other due to the way the strong vibrates, so you have to compensate to get the harmonics in tune (which are most of what you hear) by slightly tuning the fundamental flat or sharp. As you move up the neck, the string vibrates differently than the same note on a higher string/lower part of the neck, so their harmonic frequencies are going to be off even with perfectly placed/calculated frets. It’s really difficult to get any instrument sounding very in-tune to trained ears. Getting close enough that most people won’t notice is achievable, but getting every single note to be perfectly intonated relative to any other note via calculations on an acoustic instrument is near impossible. Physical constraints and things like slightly too much force exerted on a string is all it takes to F it up.
It’s because harmonic overtones aren’t always in tune. For example, if you were to simultaneously play a B1 tuned to the exact fundamental frequency and a B5 tunes it its exact fundamental frequency on an acoustic piano, the two notes would sound horribly out of tune. Same thing with guitars/basses. Notes on the lower extreme and notes on the higher extreme produce harmonic overtones at the transient that are completely out of tune to each other due to the way the strong vibrates, so you have to compensate to get the harmonics in tune (which are most of what you hear) by slightly tuning the fundamental flat or sharp. As you move up the neck, the string vibrates differently than the same note on a higher string/lower part of the neck, so their harmonic frequencies are going to be off even with perfectly placed/calculated frets. It’s really difficult to get any instrument sounding very in-tune to trained ears. Getting close enough that most people won’t notice is achievable, but getting every single note to be perfectly intonated relative to any other note via calculations on an acoustic instrument is near impossible. Physical constraints and things like slightly too much force exerted on a string is all it takes to F it up.
ItsaBass
New member
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
It's basically because strings are slightly stretched out of tune (sharp) when they are fretted. Different widths and types of strings go out of tune differently as they are fretted. As a rule of thumb, when fretted, wound strings and thicker strings go out of tune more than plain strings and thinner strings. That is why: 1) the set of plain strings, as a group, generally has its saddles closer to the front of the bridge than the set of wound strings, and 2) within each set of plain or wound strings, the thicker strings have their saddles set farther back than the thinner strings.
The farther you have to depress a string to fret it, the more it goes out of tune, therefore greater string height necessitates more extreme intonation adjustment.
It's basically because strings are slightly stretched out of tune (sharp) when they are fretted. Different widths and types of strings go out of tune differently as they are fretted. As a rule of thumb, when fretted, wound strings and thicker strings go out of tune more than plain strings and thinner strings. That is why: 1) the set of plain strings, as a group, generally has its saddles closer to the front of the bridge than the set of wound strings, and 2) within each set of plain or wound strings, the thicker strings have their saddles set farther back than the thinner strings.
The farther you have to depress a string to fret it, the more it goes out of tune, therefore greater string height necessitates more extreme intonation adjustment.
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Clint 55
OH THE DOUBLE THICK GLAZE!
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
^ I think this is correct. Lol at you guys incorrectly bringing up the flaws of equal temperament trying to sound smart. Each note of the chromatic scale is a different amount of cents off from where it occurs in the harmonic series. What would moving the saddle do to correct every semi tone along that string, and in every key? Moving the saddles gets each note along the string closest to its value in equal temperament, each semi tone an equal ratio apart, the same way a tuner is programmed.
Name Cents Difference
Unison 0
Minor second −11.73
Major second −3.91
Minor third −15.64
Major third +13.69
Perfect fourth +1.96
Tritone +17.49
Perfect fifth −1.96
Minor sixth −13.69
Major sixth +15.64
Minor seventh +3.91
Major seventh +11.73
Octave 0
- Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
^ I think this is correct. Lol at you guys incorrectly bringing up the flaws of equal temperament trying to sound smart. Each note of the chromatic scale is a different amount of cents off from where it occurs in the harmonic series. What would moving the saddle do to correct every semi tone along that string, and in every key? Moving the saddles gets each note along the string closest to its value in equal temperament, each semi tone an equal ratio apart, the same way a tuner is programmed.
Name Cents Difference
Unison 0
Minor second −11.73
Major second −3.91
Minor third −15.64
Major third +13.69
Perfect fourth +1.96
Tritone +17.49
Perfect fifth −1.96
Minor sixth −13.69
Major sixth +15.64
Minor seventh +3.91
Major seventh +11.73
Octave 0
- Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
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Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
Also a special control knob to specify the lower/upper scale to make the multi-scale variable , and another one for compound radius , yeah that would be the thing.
Also a special control knob to specify the lower/upper scale to make the multi-scale variable , and another one for compound radius , yeah that would be the thing.
beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: Why do guitars need intonation?
Just forgo all the frets altogether and intonate and temperament all you want with your playing. It's the frets that are the problem.
Just forgo all the frets altogether and intonate and temperament all you want with your playing. It's the frets that are the problem.
