Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
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freefrog
Well-known member
Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
To answer to the original question, I'd attribute the mid position honkiness of LP's to...
-the position of pickups and scale, with the related comb filtering. http://www.till.com/articles/PickupMixing/index.html
-the maple cap on a mahogany body: it tends to create a mid boosted acoustic resonance with a narrow dip around 500hz (= more or less a notch filter)
-the capacitance of inner wiring: there's a triple lenght of wire between the volume / tone pots and the switch, across the body... and braided shielded wire is highly capacitive (268pF per meter, according to my measurements). It contributes to shift down the resonant peak and to cut high frequencies / to enhance the high mids more than in guitars with their selector close to their pots.
The two first sets of specs can't be modified, obviously. The third parm is tweakable: wiring a LP with low capacitance inner cables would / will make it sound differently, especially in the middle position (I've already "tuned" the sound of the mid position in a LP thx to this parameter, for the record).
FWIW, YMMV, etc.
To answer to the original question, I'd attribute the mid position honkiness of LP's to...
-the position of pickups and scale, with the related comb filtering. http://www.till.com/articles/PickupMixing/index.html
-the maple cap on a mahogany body: it tends to create a mid boosted acoustic resonance with a narrow dip around 500hz (= more or less a notch filter)
-the capacitance of inner wiring: there's a triple lenght of wire between the volume / tone pots and the switch, across the body... and braided shielded wire is highly capacitive (268pF per meter, according to my measurements). It contributes to shift down the resonant peak and to cut high frequencies / to enhance the high mids more than in guitars with their selector close to their pots.
The two first sets of specs can't be modified, obviously. The third parm is tweakable: wiring a LP with low capacitance inner cables would / will make it sound differently, especially in the middle position (I've already "tuned" the sound of the mid position in a LP thx to this parameter, for the record).
FWIW, YMMV, etc.
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beaubrummels
Well-known member
Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
I have a Gibson 60RI with A3 custombuckers, which are very much the Seth/Brobucker/PAF honk type and the middle position is more so. Similar effect with a Brobucker and 59/A4, and similar with Skinnerburst A3 set. Not out of phase and not wrong, just the combination of two honking pickups.
I have a Gibson 60RI with A3 custombuckers, which are very much the Seth/Brobucker/PAF honk type and the middle position is more so. Similar effect with a Brobucker and 59/A4, and similar with Skinnerburst A3 set. Not out of phase and not wrong, just the combination of two honking pickups.
freefrog
Well-known member
Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
As a footnote to my previous attempt to share, I'll add this:
if middy honky pickups are mounted in other Gibson models (SG, Flying V, ES), they won't have the same honkiness than in a LP, IME. I attribute that to the reasons that I've evoked.
But it should be possible to mimic partly the "LP mid honk" signature by tuning the LRC filtering at work when the two pickups are enabled. It would only require a handful of cheap components...
As a footnote to my previous attempt to share, I'll add this:
if middy honky pickups are mounted in other Gibson models (SG, Flying V, ES), they won't have the same honkiness than in a LP, IME. I attribute that to the reasons that I've evoked.
But it should be possible to mimic partly the "LP mid honk" signature by tuning the LRC filtering at work when the two pickups are enabled. It would only require a handful of cheap components...
Deteroblix
New member
Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
Will do, thank you for the tip.
Will do, thank you for the tip.
ErikH
Well-known member
Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
Two pickups, in parallel, at vastly different positions under the strings. That's how they sound. Now, in my LP I have a Super Distortion in the bridge and the stock '57 Classic in the neck (tone pot disconnected). It still has the honk but it's more usable.
Two pickups, in parallel, at vastly different positions under the strings. That's how they sound. Now, in my LP I have a Super Distortion in the bridge and the stock '57 Classic in the neck (tone pot disconnected). It still has the honk but it's more usable.
Clint 55
OH THE DOUBLE THICK GLAZE!
Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
It's hard to describe, but it seems like the more character, detail, and transparency each pickup has, the less honk it will have. For example, when I do neck/bridge position on My Fralin with a hum and 2 mini hums, there's almost no honk and you can barely tell it's neck/bridge position. It's really incredible.
It's hard to describe, but it seems like the more character, detail, and transparency each pickup has, the less honk it will have. For example, when I do neck/bridge position on My Fralin with a hum and 2 mini hums, there's almost no honk and you can barely tell it's neck/bridge position. It's really incredible.
Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
I never quite liked middle position on my LP - some kind of sharp "plonk" almost single coily - if that is what you call honk.
I think it depends on how strong pickups you have and how they are balanced, but could be wrong.
If I turn down neck pickup, then it starts to sound alright.
This would in principle be the same as having a stronger pickup in bridge, and also adjusted close to strings so that comes out that way.
Like many like - switching to bridge for solo and more power.
I watched loads of videos, like Gary More, which I have on Montrieux festival some years on dvd.
He often uses middle position, but no honk there.
My theory is that if bridge is clearly stronger pickup - then it will sound less as you say honk.
Or that bridge is adjusted to be stronger than neck.
On my Shawbucker Tele though, I quite like how it was as delivered. Middle position works on that.
If they were called T1 and T2 as pickups.
My Squier Tele Vintage Modified with Fender wide range in neck, and Duncan design in bridge - also widely different sounding pickup - works in middle.
Probably some phasing and cancellation stuff going on too - and sometimes for the good, sometimes not.
I saw some YT on Peter Green out of phase mod - where they had to fix with volume knobs a bit how they sum up.
Interesting discussion though, I will follow...
I never quite liked middle position on my LP - some kind of sharp "plonk" almost single coily - if that is what you call honk.
I think it depends on how strong pickups you have and how they are balanced, but could be wrong.
If I turn down neck pickup, then it starts to sound alright.
This would in principle be the same as having a stronger pickup in bridge, and also adjusted close to strings so that comes out that way.
Like many like - switching to bridge for solo and more power.
I watched loads of videos, like Gary More, which I have on Montrieux festival some years on dvd.
He often uses middle position, but no honk there.
My theory is that if bridge is clearly stronger pickup - then it will sound less as you say honk.
Or that bridge is adjusted to be stronger than neck.
On my Shawbucker Tele though, I quite like how it was as delivered. Middle position works on that.
If they were called T1 and T2 as pickups.
My Squier Tele Vintage Modified with Fender wide range in neck, and Duncan design in bridge - also widely different sounding pickup - works in middle.
Probably some phasing and cancellation stuff going on too - and sometimes for the good, sometimes not.
I saw some YT on Peter Green out of phase mod - where they had to fix with volume knobs a bit how they sum up.
Interesting discussion though, I will follow...
freefrog
Well-known member
Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
To precise what I've said: the acoustic "mid notch in a bump" typical of LP's is rather around 400hz, finally. It won't be really seen below because it appears mostly when strings are played altogether.
The charts that I'll share below, conversely, just stack single notes played all along the fretboard in strictly identical conditions.
1-Here are the frequencies produced by two P.A.F. style HB's in parallel, in a LP (in red) vs in a SG (in blue):
Now, here is the same LP in red vs another LP with two FILTERTRONS in parallel (in blue):
Filtertrons are rather different pickups compared to P.A.F. replicas. Conversely, the pickups in the SG are pretty close technically to those in the LP...
But the two LP's with vastly different pickups have much more comparable responses in mid position / with 2 PU's in parallel than the SG and the LP with their similar pickups... and these responses with a comb filtering in the high mids but not much high freq are what we perceive as honkiness in LP's. I still attribute this to the parms evoked in my first post.
FWIW: a slice of my archives dropped there as general information grossly on topic, as usual.
EDIT - The specificity of vintage LP honkiness is that it sounds almost like OOP although the pickups are actually in phase. Line6 made this character really obvious when miodeling the mid position of a LP in the Variax 500.
To precise what I've said: the acoustic "mid notch in a bump" typical of LP's is rather around 400hz, finally. It won't be really seen below because it appears mostly when strings are played altogether.
The charts that I'll share below, conversely, just stack single notes played all along the fretboard in strictly identical conditions.
1-Here are the frequencies produced by two P.A.F. style HB's in parallel, in a LP (in red) vs in a SG (in blue):
Now, here is the same LP in red vs another LP with two FILTERTRONS in parallel (in blue):
Filtertrons are rather different pickups compared to P.A.F. replicas. Conversely, the pickups in the SG are pretty close technically to those in the LP...
But the two LP's with vastly different pickups have much more comparable responses in mid position / with 2 PU's in parallel than the SG and the LP with their similar pickups... and these responses with a comb filtering in the high mids but not much high freq are what we perceive as honkiness in LP's. I still attribute this to the parms evoked in my first post.
FWIW: a slice of my archives dropped there as general information grossly on topic, as usual.
EDIT - The specificity of vintage LP honkiness is that it sounds almost like OOP although the pickups are actually in phase. Line6 made this character really obvious when miodeling the mid position of a LP in the Variax 500.
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Lewguitar
New member
Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
Quite possible that they are magnetically out of phase. You can test if you have a third pickup of any kind that is not installed in a guitar.
Hold the pole pieces of that extra pickup against the polepieces of your neck pickup and see if they attract or repel.
Then do the same with your bridge pickup.
If both pickups attract the third pickup or if both pickups repel the third pickup then both pickups are magnetically in phase with each other.
If one repels and the other attracts then the magnet in one of the pickups in your guitar is reversed and it shouldn't be.
Take the cover off and loosen the screws under the baseplate, slide the magnet out and flip it over, like rolling over in bed.
You shouldn't have to resolder anything except the cover.
Or easier still: buy a neck Seth Lover and replace the Golden Age.
Quite possible that they are magnetically out of phase. You can test if you have a third pickup of any kind that is not installed in a guitar.
Hold the pole pieces of that extra pickup against the polepieces of your neck pickup and see if they attract or repel.
Then do the same with your bridge pickup.
If both pickups attract the third pickup or if both pickups repel the third pickup then both pickups are magnetically in phase with each other.
If one repels and the other attracts then the magnet in one of the pickups in your guitar is reversed and it shouldn't be.
Take the cover off and loosen the screws under the baseplate, slide the magnet out and flip it over, like rolling over in bed.
You shouldn't have to resolder anything except the cover.
Or easier still: buy a neck Seth Lover and replace the Golden Age.
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Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
if it is actually out of phase, its cheaper to flip the wiring for sure. however since i believe they are single conductor you do have to open up the pup and flip the hot and ground coil wires since you dont want to use the shield as hot
if it is actually out of phase, its cheaper to flip the wiring for sure. however since i believe they are single conductor you do have to open up the pup and flip the hot and ground coil wires since you dont want to use the shield as hot
Lewguitar
New member
Re: Why does the middle position on my Les Paul sound so honky?
If you're going to do all that it's easier to flip the magnet.
If you're going to do all that it's easier to flip the magnet.
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