Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

[zionstrat]

This has to be a stupid question but I've destroyed so many tapped winds that I have to ask the obvious. Why don't we wind 2 or 3 wires simultaneously to get 2 or 3 taps?

Admittedly, keeping up with multiple spools would be a challenge and fingers would have to get used to it.

But wouldn't the sound be pretty much the same if you wind 2 simultaneously, cut one of them short, continue winding the long one and then solder the tap leads to the proper ends after all winding is finished?

Admittedly, the short length would no longer fall at the end of the wind. Do it would not be father from the magnet...it would be sensing from same distance as the long wire.

I am sure I am missing something and look forward to input.



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[AlexR]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

I don't think you know how tapped pickups are made.

The wire is all the same coil.....all the way though. Its just partway through the wind you solder an output wire onto the coil wire. There are no multiple pickups in there, just 1 output that gives sound only from a certain percentage of the single wire in the coil and then one with signal from 100% of the length.

There is no limitation to how many taps you do. But practically the tone seeker would ask 'why??' If you have a hotter and more vintage option in there (the typical option) why on earth would you confuse things more and add in barely discernible options inbetween.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

Alex, I wind traditional taps all the time, but they often go wrong and I guess I need to explain more.
Some die because I don't burn off enough insulation. Sometimes I don't tape as cleanly as I should and I often end up with a bump at the tap point.

And yes I rarely do more than 1 tap, but tapeing the tap lead to the bobin often creates a mess.

I'm not sure that the multiple wire idea would help the last issue, but all of the other problems would go away because all the soldering would take place after winding and the connections are no longer buried.

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[AlexR]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

Ok, with a re-read I think I now can see where you are coming from.

If you've wound pickups, can you tell me how full the typical bobbin is before you get to the amount of wire you need for 1 wind to work?? If the answer is 'pretty full' (which is the correct answer), then the obvious next question is 'how are earth are you then going to fit another 2/3 to 3/4 of a pickup's wire on there as well to get the taps'. The answer is 'you can't.
The secondary issue is that you would also change the tone of the full pickup you are trying to wind if you had the extra wire sitting in with the original. Practically every part of the wind specs would have to change

And why would you want to add in this detrimental complexity??? Especially when pickup makers can do the same thing using only 1 wire.

I think proper winders also scrape the insulation off. They also choose a point where the turn is right near the bottom and the end of the bobbin so there is no bump.
edit - I think Zhangbucker is the one who has told me about the scraping bit.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

Melted and scraped both have downsides. When melting works it is cleaned and easier. I practically always break the primary when I scrape so I end up with 3 wires connecting... again its not optimal . Ive had a little success using an eyelet approach... it gets the connection away from the windings but has its own challenges.
The problem is I wind a small number of specialty pups and most use taps and anything that makes it more efficient would be great.

As far as the formula, that's part of the game...i only wind when I need something special.

In this vein experimenting with multiple gagues would be possible . Still can't think of a fundamental reason this wouldn't work , but it maybe more pain than payoff.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

I've already told why it won't work.......

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

I think what you're referring to is bifilar winding. It's been done. Gibson managed to get a patent issued. Admittedly I haven't taken the time for a deep dive into their patent document but I don't believe it is warranted. People have made bifilar pickups since the 70s as far as I can tell. Seymour has made them. You pretty much need 4 conductor so you can series/split/parallel to have all the options. So that's 4 rivets per single coil flatwork, or 4 wires per humbucker coil for a total of 8.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

If you're referring to starting a coil with one gauge of wire, then finishing the coil with a different gauge, Peavey holds that patent, and used it on Wolfgang humbuckers. Not sure if they're still using it on the latest reissue of Wolfgang-like guitars.

 

[Joey Voltage]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

If you're referring to starting a coil with one gauge of wire, then finishing the coil with a different gauge, Peavey holds that patent, and used it on Wolfgang humbuckers. Not sure if they're still using it on the latest reissue of Wolfgang-like guitars.

It's only used on one, the weaker of the two - typically the one that is fitted in the bridge position of those guitars, the other is just a symmetrically wound 44awg job. Fwiw the dual gauge wolfie pickup makes a much better neck pickup as does the neck for the bridge. I swapped them in my '97 wolfie, and think they are very good sounding pickups.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

I've never tried a pickup like that, but it is an interesting idea. I don't know if the tonal change couldn't be achieved another way, though. It does sound like making a pickup like that on your own would be a PITA.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

Amazing how easy it is to research after you know the name Turns out that you can even buy
wire.

Glad to see there is method to some of the madness for multigague. I had no idea about Wolfgang's.

And yeah, the more I think about it, twisting would have to make the winding a PITA, but might try it anyway for the fun if it.

Great stuff and thanks for lots more googling fodder.

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[zionstrat]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

Funny, nothing new under the sun... Turns out there are a lot of 2 wire designs now that I know what to look for... surprisingly they are used for single coil hum canceling... I would have thought that impossible since they use the same mag, but it uses some form of active opp amp circuitry that's well beyond me.

Here's an article. Turns out that the bifilar advantage is that the 2 wires are so close that they receive essentially the exact same noise signal and that makes better noise rejection.

http://www.cycfi.com/2013/05/singles-doubles/



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[orpheo]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

MJ made me a single coil set once. the coils start with 43 awg, end with 42 awg, with a tap in the middle. Works great. I can go from jazzmaster to tele to strat to p90 tones. Too bad they're so expensive

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

MJ made me a single coil set once. the coils start with 43 awg, end with 42 awg, with a tap in the middle. Works great. I can go from jazzmaster to tele to strat to p90 tones. Too bad they're so expensive

Wow that's very interesting. What style pup?

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[Mincer]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

MJ made me a single coil set once. the coils start with 43 awg, end with 42 awg, with a tap in the middle. Works great. I can go from jazzmaster to tele to strat to p90 tones. Too bad they're so expensive

I'd imagine it was a fun project to work on, but I can see why it would be so expensive.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Why don't we wind tapped pups with multiple wires?

I would think it's expensive only because it's a Custom Shop order. Actually making something like that doesn't take much more time than a standard 2-conductor single coil.