Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

[Dave Z]

Preamble - this is meant to be *constructive* :newangel: criticism of Duncan from a longtime past & future customer, and no I'm not slagging the tweakers either...tweak on if thats your thing.


Well I've been a loyal Duncan fan for a long time - got A2Pro singles in my strat & love 'em, got '59s in my Dean & love 'em, been using a JB in my test axe & it'll go back in when I'm done with the current project. I think Duncan has some magic in their designs and will buy again.

But, as was discussed in a recent thread there are some holes in the lineup and despite Evan's contention the Demon fills one of them, the Demon is *not* there, man.

My experience with the Demon (Tried it twice, in an SG with various amps -- I wanted to like it!) was that was too icepicky, and rolling off the tone wasn't always useful and it sucks split. Tough to match with a neck pickup.

Meanwhile....the Dimarzio FRED is an excellent, 10 ohm range 'cleaned up' and somewhat beefed up PAF sound. By cleaned up I mean a bit more hifi, though the FRED has some cool twists to the sound, it is a cleaner pickup than the '59 & sounds *great* clean, overdriven, and split, and works REALLY well with the tone control troughout its range - always gives a useful tone. hell even my WIFE goes on about how she loves the Fred. And she almost never comments on tone. I don't think Duncan has an equivalent pickup to the PAF Pro & Fred.

So that's hole # 1 and don't even tell me to try the C5, I did & found it dull, the top end sounds muffled to me (yes I play clean sometimes, OK?) just listen to the mp3s, its obvious that the custom line has issues there. (original Custom has a crisper top & does liven up under overdrive I'll give them that..) IMVHO 14K is too overwound for a good clean sound.

So, what's hole 2: F-SPACING. I am building a tremolo axe with 11/16 neck and yeah you need an F-spaced neck pickup, and here Duncan has a different approach than Dimarzio...calibrated neck & bridge versions. Granted, that's cool but what do you do when you need a calibrated F-spaced set? I bet the Trembucker models are the bridge version of the pickups.

Or can you get, say, Jazz Neck in F-spacing -well no, you cannot get ANY Jazz model in F-spacing :blackeye: ...ok maybe you can go Alnico2Pro or '59, can you get a neck model in trembucker spacing? If not will a bridge version sound dark with its lower resonant peak? Can you make a balanced pair? And no I do not want to go to the custom shop & pay double ... that's when you look to the competition....

So it'll be a PAF pro & a FRED for my new mahogany superstrat.

So, FWIW, there are rational, non-uber-tweakers (I listen to the mp3s & others' clips, experiement a bit and find a pickup I like & leave it in, I do not do endless mag & coil swaps like some of the denizens of this board) that are passing by Duncan because Duncan has some serious holes in the lineup.

So, fill it already! How hard can it be?!

Happy Thanksgiving,

Dave Z

 

[JeffB]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

I suspect many of your concerns can be addressed in the Duncan Custom shop...but I hear where you are coming from.

I love Duncan... love the company, the products and these boards they provide for us...and would rather have them in my new axe than anything else because of all that...I *AM* a loyal customer for most things in life....but gonna have to go elsewhere myself cos they don't make anything in the production line that fits my needs. If I want to go Custom wind...there are folks like Wolfetone, High Order and others that will wind me what I want for less money..so I understand your frustration.

 

[fab.regnaut]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

The demon in a SG is not a good idea ; too dry guitar , demon need a full sounded axe , not overly bright .
I tried paf pro in neck : too hot witch is normal cause it's a bridge p-u .
You don't really need two F-spaced p-u cause some people put regular spaced in bridge with fender trem , it could work in neck even better unless your neck have parallel sides .
Last thing ; in a guitar i tried 10 p-u then realised that the guitar was bad ...
then no p-u will do it .

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

I use the Dimarzio Fred in the bridge spot of my own Gibson SG and I really like it....You have my support in saying that the SD to me was a let down also...It's a clean,articulate pickup,but it's very toppy and the lows are too pulled back and so it lacks the right balls...I prefer the Fred pickup over the SD also and the Fred has more harmonic content,but it's also a pretty toppy pickup.I'm not a Dimarzio fan and almost every pickup I own or use is a Duncan,but I too see where you're coming from..Good luck in your ongoing quest for great tone!

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

The demon in a SG is not a good idea ; too dry guitar , demon need a full sounded axe , not overly bright .
I tried paf pro in neck : too hot witch is normal cause it's a bridge p-u .
You don't really need two F-spaced p-u cause some people put regular spaced in bridge with fender trem , it could work in neck even better unless your neck have parallel sides .
Last thing ; in a guitar i tried 10 p-u then realised that the guitar was bad ...
then no p-u will do it .

Not true....The Fred is great in my SG and it's dependent as always on the guitar,but I Like the Fred in this guitar.I did a couple of cool things with my Fred that I think made it better? 1 was to replace one row with std sized nickel screws and then I put a nickel cover on mine...I've had this pickup in this guitar now for several years and trust me when I tell you that if it sucked,I'd have pulled it out of there for something else! ;o)

 

[Dave Z]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Hey fab " some people put regular spaced in bridge with fender trem "

OK you go and tell Ibanez they're wrong 'cause they put fspaced buckers in the necks of so many of their guits! ;-)

Anyway a regular pup would have the outer strings outside the poles if I used a regular humbucker in my neck...

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Hey fab " some people put regular spaced in bridge with fender trem "

OK you go and tell Ibanez they're wrong 'cause they put fspaced buckers in the necks of so many of their guits! ;-)

Anyway a regular pup would have the outer strings outside the poles if I used a regular humbucker in my neck...

I will say it loud and clear. "You don't need an F-Space pup in the neck slot." Ibanez makes a lot of questionable and/or odd design decisions in my opinion.

That said, I see no reason to justify buying DiMarzio on this board or anywhere else. I question their business practices but the pickups are decent enough. Voting with your wallet seems to be the only alternative. Use the builder who makes what you want. Until a focus group approves our request it won't be coming from Duncan. Thats been made perfectly clear.

Its a good thing the makers of that classic Benifer flick "Gili" listened to one. Who knew we needed a badly written excuse to put those two in a movie together if they hadn't said so?

 

[krankguitarist]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

I will say it loud and clear. "You don't need an F-Space pup in the neck slot." Ibanez makes a lot of questionable and/or odd design decisions in my opinion.

+1, I've never encountered a situation where The pole pieces on my standard-spaced neck pickups have not lined up with the strings...and I've had guitars with the 1 11/16ths nut width equipped with trems.

Basically, it all comes down to this: Go with the company that makes what you want. Duncan's got that corner bout 95% nailed for me, but it may not for other people. se la vi.

 

[neosadist]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

That's why you pick your own pickups. Granted, yes, I have appreciated the help I've gotten here, but ultimately the decision was mine to get '59/JB combo. I cannot blame others in here for what I buy. Please, if you're buying something else, keep that to yourself or post it on the Dimarzio forums. Don't get me wrong though, it's not like you're committing a sin to buy something else.

 

[martinsixstringcustoms]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

That's why you pick your own pickups. Granted, yes, I have appreciated the help I've gotten here, but ultimately the decision was mine to get '59/JB combo. I cannot blame others in here for what I buy. Please, if you're buying something else, keep that to yourself or post it on the Dimarzio forums. Don't get me wrong though, it's not like you're committing a sin to buy something else.

I don't see any reason why someone can't post why they are using/buying non-SD pickups here on the forum. It's never been a taboo subject because the folks at SD obviously are confident in their product. It's good for us as users and good for SD as a company to hear the good AND bad. It makes good business sense at the least. You can't fix what you don't know is wrong. Tone is subjective. Use what works for YOU.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

The only DiMarzio's I've considered trying recently are the Norton, Air Norton and Tone Zone. In the past I've tried the X2N (had it for a long time actually) and the PAF Pro. I always look at the Duncan line first when choosing pickups. It's just the natural thing for me to do. It like looking at effects pedals. I always look at BOSS first before Digitech or DOD.

 

[jony]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

There are no dimarzio forums.

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

That's why you pick your own pickups. Granted, yes, I have appreciated the help I've gotten here, but ultimately the decision was mine to get '59/JB combo. I cannot blame others in here for what I buy. Please, if you're buying something else, keep that to yourself or post it on the Dimarzio forums. Don't get me wrong though, it's not like you're committing a sin to buy something else.

There is no reason not to talk about it here. They have always encouraged discussion of all makes and models as long as you don't slam people who cannot defend themselves.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

I use mostly Duncans,but I also use CS Fender and Dimarzio stuff....As long as I feel I can offer anything positive or help another person,irrigardless of brand,then I feel I have a right to post and talk about other brands...I know this is the "Duncan" forums,but we have a great variety on this forum of not just Duncan pickups,but also other gear,and other people's brands of pickups..I say we help each other and give whatever info helps get us there!

 

[Archer_of_Fish]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

I will say it loud and clear. "You don't need an F-Space pup in the neck slot." Ibanez makes a lot of questionable and/or odd design decisions in my opinion.

I will stand up and say it right after you do.

 

[Dave Z]

Re: F-spacing

Re: F-spacing

I will stand up and say it right after you do.

OK, so WHY are you all saying a neck humbucker does not have to be F-spaced?

Normal humbuckers are 48mm, f-spacing is 51, string spacing at the neck position of this guitar will be over 50mm. So, hey, it sure seems like you are gonna get a better tone from the Fspaced pickup.

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

There is nothing wrong with posting your impressions of the "short-comings" in the SD line-up as you perceive them and positive comments on another makers line is not taboo. Believe it or not the folks at SD do listen to constructive criticism and on a couple of occasions they have even taken user suggestions and ran with them.

Heres the thing though, we all have a different taste in tone and pickups. While Dave may have a great pickup idea for himself and his applications, that doesn't nessessarily mean that tens of thousands of other people are going to dig the idea and buy the pickup. Unfortunately thats what it takes to get a new pickup into production. The options really are to either turn to the Custom Shop and pay to have your perfect pickup made, or to look elsewhere. At least Dave showed up and voiced an honest and coherent reason why he prefers Dmz in this case.

As far as I remember, 1 11/16" is a standard nut width found on Strats, PRS and Gibson to name a few so I honestly don't see a need for a wider spaced neck humbucker. I didn't know that Ibanez did such a thing but then again I have never been particularily impressed with the tone of Ibanez stock pickups so it doesn't really matter what size they come in to me.

Some people are fanatical about trem spaced pickups but having tried both std and trem speced JBs in my Strat in the bridge position I can say that the tone was the same. In the neck position where the spacing will be even tighter you won't hear a difference.

The SD line-up covers a lot of ground and maybe there are spots where you might think SD could offer one more selection but consider this. When asked what comsumers liked about the SD line, the large selection was often mentioned. When asked what consumers disliked about the SD line, confusion about the many choices was also mentioned. Too many pickups to choose from is a problem for many people it seems. Another 10k pickup might just add to the confusion.

It's all good and there is something out there for all of us. Its more than ok that Dave says he likes some Dmz products and we don't need to defend SD products from such a statement. From a market share point of view, SD is doing just fine.

 

[ranalli]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

There is nothing wrong with posting your impressions of the "short-comings" in the SD line-up as you perceive them and positive comments on another makers line is not taboo. Believe it or not the folks at SD do listen to constructive criticism and on a couple of occasions they have even taken user suggestions and ran with them.

Heres the thing though, we all have a different taste in tone and pickups. While Dave may have a great pickup idea for himself and his applications, that doesn't nessessarily mean that tens of thousands of other people are going to dig the idea and buy the pickup. Unfortunately thats what it takes to get a new pickup into production. The options really are to either turn to the Custom Shop and pay to have your perfect pickup made, or to look elsewhere. At least Dave showed up and voiced an honest and coherent reason why he prefers Dmz in this case.

As far as I remember, 1 11/16" is a standard nut width found on Strats, PRS and Gibson to name a few so I honestly don't see a need for a wider spaced neck humbucker. I didn't know that Ibanez did such a thing but then again I have never been particularily impressed with the tone of Ibanez stock pickups so it doesn't really matter what size they come in to me.

Some people are fanatical about trem spaced pickups but having tried both std and trem speced JBs in my Strat in the bridge position I can say that the tone was the same. In the neck position where the spacing will be even tighter you won't hear a difference.

The SD line-up covers a lot of ground and maybe there are spots where you might think SD could offer one more selection but consider this. When asked what comsumers liked about the SD line, the large selection was often mentioned. When asked what consumers disliked about the SD line, confusion about the many choices was also mentioned. Too many pickups to choose from is a problem for many people it seems. Another 10k pickup might just add to the confusion.

It's all good and there is something out there for all of us. Its more than ok that Dave says he likes some Dmz products and we don't need to defend SD products from such a statement. From a market share point of view, SD is doing just fine.

As someone who loves both Duncans and Dimarzios, I think your points are excellent and I agree.


I did the same thing you did with a JB and I could not tell a difference either. I think the spacing issue is a bit exaggerated IMO.


As for getting a pickup into production, yeah, after reading Evan's latest post, it's very obvious that putting a new pickup into production is much more of an involved process than many people realize. However, absurd that may seem(I think it is but that's another discussion), that's how they do business and people here can't change that.


Also, to reiterate, I always hear people here say about how the Duncan line is so complete, and it has every pickup I could ever need, etc, etc. So what's the story now? It has changed so suddenly?

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Personally I don't have any issues with the product line at SD, all of my tone and output needs are met with their production line. I do have several Custom Shop pickups but the majority of my SD pickups are straight out of the box. The thing is though not everybody has my hands, rig or ears and I get that some folks might want something different depending on their situation.

I've wondered from time to time why their aren't many HB pickups in the 11k, 12k and 13k range, at least that I've noticed. I always thought that there must be something cool in that range but maybe not.

Anyways, its still all good.

 

[Archer_of_Fish]

Re: F-spacing

Re: F-spacing

OK, so WHY are you all saying a neck humbucker does not have to be F-spaced?

Normal humbuckers are 48mm, f-spacing is 51, string spacing at the neck position of this guitar will be over 50mm. So, hey, it sure seems like you are gonna get a better tone from the Fspaced pickup.

I have used Ibanez guitars in the past (used to own a 550 and a 770, one of my first guitars was a Destroyer) I did pickup swaps in them MANY times. I used F spaced pickups (used to be a Dimarzio guy) in the bridge and standard spaced in the neck. The alignment is fine. and the tone is just fine. You are NOT going to need an F spaced pickup in the neck on ANY guitar with an an 1 11/16" nut width it really doesnt matter WHAT Ibanez says. ANd to be honest I dont believe they are going to say that for a moment. CHeck with them....or check with the guy that runs Ibaezrules.com (RIch) and see what his advice is. Its not going to be getting an F spaced neck pickup.

I have used non f spaced pickups in Fenders and cant detect a difference. F spacing (trembuckers) are great, and yes it looks better to have the poles line up. But is it critical? Not for a bloody moment. I am one of many that argues that F spacing is cosmetic more than anything.

Run it by Tim at bare knuckle pickups.....he will agree that a neck F spaced pickup is also totally unneeded.

I think I am going to wind some pickups to 11 or 12K and see what happens. I do like what that range should sound like (on paper that is)