Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

[Dave Z]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

"Sorry about the diatribe, but wanted to point out you will probably get more out of the forum if you concentrate on learning the things that interest you and letting SD marketing do what it does best"

I have never, ever been part of any focus group regarding Duncan pickups, nor have I ever heard of anyone being part of a F.G. of Duncan pickups, thus I will use the forum as a way of supplying feedback to the Duncan company.

As far as being an earlier adopter or some sort of bleeding edge type, I guess you did not read the post that kicked this thread off. The whole point was: I think I'm a fairly normal user. Never swapped a mag, or a coil, or removed a chrome cover.

Thanks for the advice, anyway.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Dave-
sorry.. wasnt trying to hijack the thread and you did place yourself in the middle of the lifecycle-

but do you think the average forum user is really at the middle of the SD spectrum? You might be right and I've already railed against "monday morning quarterbacking"- But I would still bet that you're above the average because most guitarists use stock pups?

 

[Dave Z]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

I don't know Zion, I don't know the average guy--who does--but swapping pickups seems like a commonplace occurance....just troll ebay or HC classifieds & see how often you see "XXX guitar, w/ Duncans".

Anyhow, I'm very familiar with modern marketing and our guys like to hear from end-users, not just market studies. This is a fortune 500 technology co.

 

[PoorMan]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

I like the way these threads turn into "Marketing 101." nder:

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

sorry poorman- pretty dry stuff if you dont live it-I'll go back to rants about spin a split

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Marketing isn't what you think it is

Re: Marketing isn't what you think it is

But, here's the part you aren't going to like... most of the time we do not build the products our power users want the most.

I'm having trouble understanding that part, maybe because I don't understand the term "power user".

 

[PoorMan]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

sorry poorman- pretty dry stuff if you dont live it-I'll go back to rants about spin a split

Now yer talkin' :beerchug:

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: Marketing isn't what you think it is

Re: Marketing isn't what you think it is

Folks-
It's fun to be a user, it's fun to experiment, and as members of this forum, I guarantee that you are providing input that SD values.

But as a technology marketing professional (including a spell as marketing director for a DAW manufacturer), I can speak to some points that Evan probably can't...even considering his very candid input.

You are familiar with the place (channels), price, and promotion aspects of the marketing mix from marketing 101 and you run into them every day in retail/CPG land. These are the visable aspects of marketing, and most assume this is what we do most of the time.

In reality, we live and die for an a wicked master known as the business plan and it's evil twin sister the marketing requirements doc (MRD)-

So how do the cutting edge products of the future make it into these documents so that executives will fund R&D and so that R&D doesn't just build whatever it feels like?

If you think we sit around and brainstorm, you've got the wrong half of marketing- My brethren in advertising do this all of the time, but you don't fund the product this way.

Instead we do research..lots and lots, and lots of research- The mantra we repeat is "Ideas are nice, but everybody's got one" and what we do is parse through all the sources of info to build a business case that has a greater chance of success than anything else on the docket- and to craft an MRD that gets the best bang for the investment. We hate to think of this from the artist POV, but successful businesses have to be good at making money. Or if they are really really good, and they can stay very, very small boutiques.

So where do we get this input? I spend most of my time with industry analysts who work with every client imaginable every day. We sponsor studies, we read reports, and we use focus groups for reality checks. We get feedback from a whole branch of analytics known as CRM (customer relationship management), we run algorithms to mine data to find relationship that no one ever guessed existed, and tech support sends us a report every week.

But, here's the part you aren't going to like... most of the time we do not build the products our power users want the most. After all, as early adopters they represent one of the smallest segments of the product lifecycle, and their behavior doesn't really predic the mainstream. And the money is in the early and late mainstream phases-

So think about it, are the things that YOU want really the things that will sell the most pups in the long run? You are the cutting edge, you are the early adopters..we can talk about digital guitars or whatever, but Evan and company have to be careful to consider us as just one of many sources of info.

Sorry about the diatribe, but wanted to point out you will probably get more out of the forum if you concentrate on learning the things that interest you and letting SD marketing do what it does best

Yet with all that work new products,when viewed on a broad scale, fail far more often than simple statistical random chance would indicate they should.

I know full well that everything you say is true but the truly innovative stuff comes to life from the minds of people with vision and balls, not a bean counter and a focus group. Thats kind of the problem with business. The focus group may prevent major stupidy but it prevents major innovation equally well. Do you really think a Les Paul would have been approved by a focus group back then? Hell no. Solidbodies were a joke at that time to the public at large (ie your focus group) and would have died quick and quiet if it weren't for the vision of Ted McCarty and Les Paul.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Marketing isn't what you think it is

Re: Marketing isn't what you think it is

But as a technology marketing professional (including a spell as marketing director for a DAW manufacturer)...


But, here's the part you aren't going to like... most of the time we do not build the products our power users want the most. After all, as early adopters they represent one of the smallest segments of the product lifecycle, and their behavior doesn't really predic the mainstream. And the money is in the early and late mainstream phases-

So think about it, are the things that YOU want really the things that will sell the most pups in the long run? You are the cutting edge, you are the early adopters..we can talk about digital guitars or whatever, but Evan and company have to be careful to consider us as just one of many sources of info.

Lemme guess...

You worked for Digidesign right?

:soapbox:

:headache:

Since when does a pickup have a "lifecycle" as you put it? Oh yeah...you mean like the Ducan Custom I bought in '93 or '94 and used daily until 2001 when my sweat and abuse destroyed it?!? Yeah, that'll work :laugh2:

From the short time I've been on here I'd say that this board represents a great cross-section of users. You've got everyone from people who are swapping magnets around & doing their own rewinds to kids who have never bought a replacement pickup before. Really, it doesn't get much broader then that IMO.

 

[wildstar]

Re: Marketing isn't what you think it is

Re: Marketing isn't what you think it is

Lemme guess...

You worked for Digidesign right?

:sword:
:laughing:

From the short time I've been on here I'd say that this board represents a great cross-section of users. You've got everyone from people who are swapping magnets around & doing their own rewinds to kids who have never bought a replacement pickup before. Really, it doesn't get much broader then that IMO.

I agree. The people on this board are the ones who rant and rave and opinionate to other, less geeky, folks about what pickups they should buy. Isn't that worth something?

And also, this board has the swellest dudes (and dudettes?) I've ever encountered online. :beerchug:

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

uh oh, I opened pandoras box, but then I told poorman I'd stick to pups- But so many cool tangents to chase... and life is so short.. so Poorman, please, please forgive me...

I'm having trouble understanding that part, maybe because I don't understand the term "power user".

Sorry, Z, in our book, powerusers are technology users that push the envelope- They take the tools that are avaiable and find 50 new ways to use them and they tend to get a lot of work done- For example, I'd put Artie in that camp for wiring-

But you can imagine that they are usually ahead of the curve on education, patience, and ability to work around the bugs.

TheArchitect
Ah, you might appreciate Emerson's "build a better mouse trap and the world..." quote. That works well for for boutique communities and explains why there are just a few Joe Barden powered, Zion strat freaks out there (I'm #1

The bottom line is that all markets are different and they evolve, but think about the size of the original electric market and especialy Fender's approach- At first it was pure boutique, a few 'power users' in S CA simply wanted more volumn- No one imagined a revolution, it looked like evolution at the time.

But let's jump to Gibson in the 50s and 60s- by this point it's clear that there is entirely new uses for electics and gibson is a big company that understands marketing- Of course data mining doesn't exist at the time

At that point no one had defined buyer types (or at least I haven't heard of this technique way back then) but this is effectively what they did when they introduced the V, explorer and firebird. They tried to understand the factors that this new, young, and different buyer was looking for and build to those factors.

The LP and tele.. just the survivors from the boutique stage..they just happened to be the correct mixture of features... but what about the first, the riceknbacher frying pan? It certainly didn't live.

Long story short, Gibson has long since moved towords comiditization, they do plenty of risk/benefit, they understand their buyer types, and the odds of a "boutique" discovery certainly go down- It's just the way that markets go, ie goodbye handbuilt 1909 oldsmobile ...hello to mass production box car.

Don't get mad at me, I just work here

J Moose - No I've certainly used PT many times over the years and never bought into either side of the religious wars- I expect you've never heard of MicroTechnologyUnlimited- One of the first pro end AD manufacturers and one of the first DAW suppliers...but kind of a case in point, they couldn't make the change to market driven digital audio, and once again, markets change.

But you're kidding me on pups and lifecycles aren't you? If I find a lost shipment of 1 million 1960's moserite or 1980s gibson pups, do you think that I can get $60 per? I don't think so. Instrument evolution tends to be long and smooth curves, but you dont see a lot of baritone mandolins out there anymore.

In 58 humbuckers were cutting edge- Those that could afford the cost and the risk bought them- They grew into maturity rather quickly and turned out to have a great long life cycle. Seth lover was a smart engineer that understood audience needs.

P90's? Just about 10 year life cycle on their first pass

Three coils? Think they have come and gone- Low impediance? Les Paul sure missed the first curve altogether didn't he? But maybe EMGs are the start of a new long cycle?

And in 2105 theres a very good chance that a psedo/cyber/stompbreaking digital zachtar player will hold up a PAF to one of his freinds and say, can you believe that this ancient technology really used to be the first step in the sound chain?

Peace and goodnight!

 

[JeffB]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

damn...I'd just like to see a hot PAF in the production line like all the other big pup companies have...

:shrug:

 

[hans-jürgen]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

If I find a lost shipment of 1 million 1980s gibson pups, do you think that I can get $60 per? I don't think so

If they have ink stamps on the base plate saying 137 or 138, send them to me instead...

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

TheArchitect
Ah, you might appreciate Emerson's "build a better mouse trap and the world..." quote. That works well for for boutique communities and explains why there are just a few Joe Barden powered, Zion strat freaks out there (I'm #1

The bottom line is that all markets are different and they evolve, but think about the size of the original electric market and especialy Fender's approach- At first it was pure boutique, a few 'power users' in S CA simply wanted more volumn- No one imagined a revolution, it looked like evolution at the time.

But let's jump to Gibson in the 50s and 60s- by this point it's clear that there is entirely new uses for electics and gibson is a big company that understands marketing- Of course data mining doesn't exist at the time

At that point no one had defined buyer types (or at least I haven't heard of this technique way back then) but this is effectively what they did when they introduced the V, explorer and firebird. They tried to understand the factors that this new, young, and different buyer was looking for and build to those factors.

The LP and tele.. just the survivors from the boutique stage..they just happened to be the correct mixture of features... but what about the first, the riceknbacher frying pan? It certainly didn't live.

Long story short, Gibson has long since moved towords comiditization, they do plenty of risk/benefit, they understand their buyer types, and the odds of a "boutique" discovery certainly go down- It's just the way that markets go, ie goodby handbuilt 1909 oldsmobile ...hello to mass production box car.

Don't get mad at me, I just work here

Why should I be mad. You seemed to have confirmed my point. The real innovation took place without the benefit(or more likely limitation depending on your view) of a focus group, data mining or any other analysis technique. Claiming Fender was in their boutique stage may be fair but gibson was in business for decades at that point. Regardless though, has either of those companies done anything but produce minor variations of their existing, decades old designs? No they haven't.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Archetect, I'm not really sure our positions were that far away from the beginning- All I was really trying to say is there are many sources of inputs that have to be considered for a large modern company to be sucesful. A forum just happens to be one of them, but SD has to be careful not to put too much emphathsis any single source.

And we need to keep in mind that there is a good chance that we are a biased input to begin with. After all, we've chosen to be here and most of the population hasn't

Now I'm going to run scales before I go to work to make up for the time I thought about work while I should have been playing
Cheers

 

[TheArchitect]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Archetect, I'm not really sure our positions were that far away from the beginning- All I was really trying to say is there are many sources of inputs that have to be considered for a large modern company to be sucesful. A forum just happens to be one of them, but SD has to be careful not to put too much emphathsis any single source.

And we need to keep in mind that there is a good chance that we are a biased input to begin with. After all, we've chosen to be here and most of the population hasn't

Now I'm going to run scales before I go to work to make up for the time I thought about work while I should have been playing
Cheers

True enough. We agree that the Duncan Company has moved past the stage of being motivated primarly by innovation. They are a business with much more emphasis on running the business successfully than cutting edge innovation. Evan and the guys may disagree with that assesment but thats my view of it. Just as Fender and Gibson have settled in to where they are and what they do, so has Duncan.

Which is why I don't think this forum represents as much input as we might like to think. As Evan has pointed out any idea gleened here will have to get through the focus group and thus I think we are far more likely to see another variant of PAF or custom than we are a 12k pup because the average joe doesn't understand what that is or represents but they do understand high output vs vintage. (Kind of like asking someone who has never driven what they think of power steering in my opinion.) Actually I think its unlikely we will see any new humbucker that isn't a signature model (which I seriously hope isn't Mustain. Good player but would just represent another high gain pup) It seems SD is more interested in expanding the breadth of products in the line to include pedals and other items which is fine but just further evidence of where they seem to be heading going forward.

 

[WGTP]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

Have you tried a Full Shred = Fred???

It's a little thicker than the SD. :laugh2:

 

[Rev Donzo]

Re: Why I'm buying Dimarzios this time

inorder to go past 10k 42 qauge wire with humbuckers, you need to switch to wire 43 its thinner an allows for more wraps/turns

but it also is brighter and thiner so it needs to go up a 1000 to 2000- turns to pass the same tone of a 10k 42 wire humbucker..the magic number is 14k

duncan has a 14k distortion neck, that i put alnico 5 in it--and use in the bridge, string spacing is off i know``--yet its not too noticable-as in volume drop string to string--it's been no problem..other then visual...
this is what we make here when me and my friends want to feel this void.
its about perfect as it's a little hotter bridge yet not getting progressive--still remains PAF-ish