Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

[Kosh Naranek]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

...I have always found that to fit nicely in a live mix, I always ended up having to turn down my bass and sit in the high-mid register to really fit well.

I'm right with you. Any guitarist who has recorded a CD knows that to get a clear sounding mix, you leave in the highlights, and cut a lot of the rest out. There has to be room for the bass drum and bass guitar. If the guitar is stepping all over them, the mix just turns to indistinguishable mush.

Even on songs where the guitar starts out by itself, and you can hear that thump of the 4-12 cab that was used in the studio, the second the bass and drums kick in, the low end on the guitar was dialed out.

 

[ES350]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

Just wondering.

Why didn't 15s catch on? Particularly for clean amps?

Or the 4x10?

Well, they sure did. A 15" is the standard for steel amps; loud, clean, hi power (A D130F or an Altec 418 is almost a requirement for a serious steel rig). Ditto for a lot of jazz players ala Ampegs, 50's Gibsons, Polytones etc. The larger hi power Fender amps and cabs (Showman, etc) all had 15". 4x10" was used in the Bassman (designed as a bass amp), the Concert, the Super Reverb; these are pretty popular amps. Your average joe in a 60's/70's US band didn't have a 4x12" Marshall cab; he probably had a Plush, a Kustom, or a big Fender, a lot of which had 15" speakers.

A 2x12" was a way to get more speaker cone area in a cabinet about the size of a 1 x15" enclosure, so that was the model for the Twins and early Marshalls. A 12" is a decent compromise between the presence of a 10" and the bottom of a 15", but for some applications, a 10" or a 15" works a lot better.

 

[ksmith63]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

Come on guys.....It's all about $. I'm sure they tried to use 10s but weren't powerful enough. Next up = 12s and they worked. 15s would be more expensive so back to the 12s.

 

[phil_104]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

Come on guys.....It's all about $. I'm sure they tried to use 10s but weren't powerful enough. Next up = 12s and they worked. 15s would be more expensive so back to the 12s.

Ow, my brain!:banghead:

 

[some_dude]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

In the last 10 years or so, with the sound of rock guitar changing from the midrangy chunk of the 70's and 80's to the more bassy downtuned sound of the 90's and now, companies like Rivera and Randall have introduced amps with 15 inch speakers. I recall seeing a Rivera amp with a 1-15 cab and a 2-12 or 4-12 cab. One cab for the body, one for the low end.

Rivera also put out a powered subwoofer for guitar. I think it was meant to run off the Knucklehead's slave out.

Beyond that, 15s and subwoofers have never really caught on (probably for the better). Randall had that 2x15 cab, but the only time I've ever seen pictures of it is in kids bedrooms.... usually with a Dime V leaning against it.

The only place I see 15s being used is doom metal, where high headroom amps, fuzz boxes, and neanderthalian (I think I just made a new word) rigs reign supreme, and on certain clean amp models like the Twin 15 reissue. You would think that a 15 would prove popular with jazz types.

 

[Luke Duke]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

I think a 2x10/2x12 combo or a 1x12/1x10 combo should be the ticket to bliss...but I haven't tried it.....yet!

 

[ES350]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

You would think that a 15 would prove popular with jazz types.

It is...there's a certain legit hard bop tone you get from a good 15" that you can't get from a 12".

 

[jeremy]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

i have a 1x10"/1x12" combo and i love it. it also demonstrated that just cause its a 12" doesnt mean it will be bigger sounding than a 10". the eminence red fang is darker but the weber 10A150T is just as fat but its wider sounding and maybe even a touch louder. best **** 10" speaker ive ever heard

 

[everdrone]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

I had a 410 cab 10 years ago, my head was longer than it and looked weird on top of it so the gearheads told me at practices and tryouts; I paired it with my 412 cab at the time for a wall of sound FULL STACK.

it was pretty awesome, the 12s hit lows and were flubby but the 10s were precision sounding. the full stack looked weird cause one cab was smaller than the other matching dimensions...

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

I'll be honest about what I think, even though I will probably get flamed for it, as I know it is not what 99.9% of guitarists think probably, but works for me.

I personally don't understand why guitarists are super hung up on bass response. I'm not talking no bass response at all, but I have always found that to fit nicely in a live mix, I always ended up having to turn down my bass and sit in the high-mid register to really fit well. I want to make it clear that I am not saying no bass ; but I feel that if you have a bassist on stage, yourself, a drummer, maybe another guitarist or keys player, I don't see why you would want to push 15s. I could however see how it would be useful if you play alone at home, or in different settings where you don't have any instrument to cover the lows.

I know you might not agree, but for me, 12s or 10s(my obvious preference) will give you that tightness control and the right range to take your place within a live sound, with just the right amount of bass and low ends.

I'm sure some of you feel differently and make 15s work, but this is just my 2cents worth.

i actually don't like dialing in much bass, things get boomy, my crunch gets sucked away, everything is boomy, stuff i don't like. that and the thing about how it doesn't mix as well

that said, i don't have much experience with different speakers other than my 4x12 windsor cab and a few crappy solid state practice-sized speakers, but i can get a tone i'm happy with from my windsor cab so i don't see any reason to experiment and/or buy anything

 

[Zerberus]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

My wild guess about the invention of the 4x12 is that they felt they needed at least four G12Ms to keep up with a big loud Marshall. In some instances, that would be even two 4x12s.

The dual 4x12 stack was invented out of mercy for the Who´s Roadies, Pete Townshend originally wanted an 8x12 but Jim Marshall figured that would be too impractical

 

[Perry D]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

the same reason 12 inch subwoofers in a car are more popular than 10's or 15's. more verstaile.

 

[guitfiddle]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

The dual 4x12 stack was invented out of mercy for the Who´s Roadies, Pete Townshend originally wanted an 8x12 but Jim Marshall figured that would be too impractical

Pete actually took delivery of 2 of those cabs...his roadies were about to hurt themselves, so they were split.

Jim Marshall went with a 4x12 cause his first amps were meant for bass, and he felt that the 4x10 open back cab was too flubby and loose, and a closed 4x12 solved that. Not too many bassists use them now, but 4x12s in a closed cab kick ass for bass.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

Its actually probably a matter of speed. A lighter mass speaker will respond faster resulting in higher damping, or how tightly the cone is controllable. High damping is great for cleans but not really for many popular types of distortion tones. Low damping from a slower, greater mass speaker may result in a flubby low end.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

12" was the standard PA speaker size in the 1950's, and was the size ordered by the military. That is probably why it became the standard in guitar amps. Why it was the standard PA speaker size is a good question. I would guess it's a size that offers a good compromise between clean volume and physical footprint.

It's easy to say now that it sounds the best, but that could simply be because we're so accustomed to hearing that sound that anything else seems weird. If the standard PA speaker in the 50's was 15", we might be asking why it is the standard for guitar amps.

 

[NoOnesFang13]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

From what i have heard when Jim Marshall was modding Tweed Fender Bassmans for his friends he changed a few things like tubes and whatnot... which became the JTM45. In doing this Jim had an idea in his head of what he wanted it to sound like, using a head configuration with a closed back 4x12 cab got him to where he was going after much experimentation.

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

I'll be honest about what I think, even though I will probably get flamed for it, as I know it is not what 99.9% of guitarists think probably, but works for me.

I personally don't understand why guitarists are super hung up on bass response. I'm not talking no bass response at all, but I have always found that to fit nicely in a live mix, I always ended up having to turn down my bass and sit in the high-mid register to really fit well. I want to make it clear that I am not saying no bass ; but I feel that if you have a bassist on stage, yourself, a drummer, maybe another guitarist or keys player, I don't see why you would want to push 15s. I could however see how it would be useful if you play alone at home, or in different settings where you don't have any instrument to cover the lows.

I know you might not agree, but for me, 12s or 10s(my obvious preference) will give you that tightness control and the right range to take your place within a live sound, with just the right amount of bass and low ends.

I'm sure some of you feel differently and make 15s work, but this is just my 2cents worth.

I fully agree.

Some folks may like 15'' or 18'' speakers, but for electric guitar, you definitely want more of a midrange focus and bigger speakers takes away from that. Some folks fail to see the big picture. The guitar doesn't belong in the lower registers, that's what bass is for. If you've ever play out, I'm sure you'll see bands make this mistake all the time. Those lower registers can take over the entire mix and before you know it you can barely hear anything other than the lowend.

 

[SlowGroove]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

Rivera also put out a powered subwoofer for guitar. I think it was meant to run off the Knucklehead's slave out.

Beyond that, 15s and subwoofers have never really caught on (probably for the better). Randall had that 2x15 cab, but the only time I've ever seen pictures of it is in kids bedrooms.... usually with a Dime V leaning against it.

The only place I see 15s being used is doom metal, where high headroom amps, fuzz boxes, and neanderthalian (I think I just made a new word) rigs reign supreme, and on certain clean amp models like the Twin 15 reissue. You would think that a 15 would prove popular with jazz types.

I was thinking the same thing !

I know Vader Cabs make a 2x15 . . . so some of their loyal giging fans might use the 2x15.
They sure are not cheap though !
I would also think that more of the ELECTRIC Amp USA owners would rock their 2x15's / 4x15's !!!
I know Riffer over at HC Forums has an Electric 2x15.



James

 

[veryhungrycaterpilla]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

I'm a fan of the 10 inch Rajin Cajun. That said, I'm pining for a Tiny Terror Combo with a 12 incher. (To complement my Crate V5 with the RC).

 

[eggman]

Re: Why is a 12in speaker the standard?

Howdy,

Why 12s? Probably a case of "best by test".

Eggman